Settle a bet between brothers

[dboat]

My brother Jeff, has a really nice black 1997 Dogde Ram Sport 1500 Pickup truck 4x4 with a 5.8L (360) V-8. We were jawing at each other, talking trash about each others pickup truck, as brothers do:evil :beer: . So then he spouts off as says, I bet if we hooked up our two trucks via a tow rope and had a pull off, I could pull your truck. His thinking is that he has 4 wheel drive and since it has a higher stance, he could pull my truck. I say :bs , my truck has much more torque and hp, I can pull your truck anyday. This isnt a 1/8 or 1/4 mile race, this isnt a race from a roll on on the hwy, this is putting a rope hooked up to the hitch on both trucks and seeing if one could pull the other.

We have agreed to put it to the vote of the members here to see what they say on this one.. I dont recall anyone having done this before.

Soooo, What say you? does the Dodge pull the L or does the L pull the Dodge??

Dana

p.s. my dyno numbers are in the forum and I have stock F1's as my tires. He has Bridgestone All Terrains..

[L8 APEX]

A 4wd will pull a 2wd any day of the week. Traction and surface area is the key. All of a vehicles weight on 4 driving tires beats half a vehicles weight on two tires. Post the video:beer:

[03LightningRocks]

A 4wd will pull a 2wd any day of the week. Traction and surface area is the key. All of a vehicles weight on 4 driving tires beats half a vehicles weight on two tires. Post the video:beer:

I'm with Terry on this one. Your tires will be spinning the rubber off, while searching for something to grab.

I want to see a video too.:evil


Rocks

[Boosted32v]

Well I'm going to disagree with the 4x4 people. If you tie them up together and give a "GO" the lightning on pure TQ will take off first, while the Dodge has to wait to get to its TQ, I also believe that the 'L GY's will be hooking up once they get warmed up and the BFG all terrains will never find traction and will be just spinning, my money is on the 'Lightning...'H'

[L8 APEX]

You guys are silly thinking the L would win a bumper pull. It doesn't matter if the L had 600ft lbs torque it can't get 300ft lbs to the ground. 2 rear tires with 47% of the vehicles total weight on them will just spin. 4 tires with over 5000#'s on them will rule:hammer: . Tread pattern is irrelevant here. I have a Z-71 if anyone wants to test this theory out. I have a hundred bucks on it:tu: .

[andy_cain]

Can I use slicks and launch off the bottle:d Might be fun to pop the bumper off the Z-71 for $100.:rll:

If I cant use slicks and launch off the bottle, I am thinking it would be MY bumper that gets popped....I agree that the 4 wheels pulling would win the bet

[Silver_2000]

lets see getting 100% of 200 ftlbs of torque to the ground or 50% of 500 ft lbs ...

Interesting race - lets see the video

Doug

[03'svtlight]

lets see getting 100% of 200 ftlbs of torque to the ground or 50% of 500 ft lbs ...

Interesting race - lets see the video

Doug
Both bumpers will be snatched off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rll:

[L8 APEX]

Power is not the issue traction is. Where is our WWFB Engineer! Besides if you count the torque multiplication of 4wd low range at 80:1 or more it gets pretty stout. The real power is on 4 tires with 5000#'s on them not 2 tires with 2300lbs on them. The L will put on a nice smoke show that is it. Kind of like a 2wd on a boat ramp trying to pull a boat out. Power isn't a factor tracion is. The 4wd can idle the load out of the water.

[Silver_2000]

Power is not the issue traction is. Where is our WWFB Engineer! Besides if you count the torque multiplication of 4wd low range at 80:1 or more it gets pretty stout. The real power is on 4 tires with 5000#'s on them not 2 tires with 2300lbs on them. The L will put on a nice smoke show that is it. Kind of like a 2wd on a boat ramp trying to pull a boat out. Power isn't a factor tracion is. The 4wd can idle the load out of the water.
Since you used the boat ramp analogy
The Lightning has idled my boat out a number of ramps where other pickups have spun thier ass off.. Spin 4 tires no.... But the width of the L tire helps a great deal on ramps...

4 wheel low would be tough to beat.... So would a sherman tank .... :rll:

[Mark #2]

Power is not the issue traction is. Where is our WWFB Engineer! Besides if you count the torque multiplication of 4wd low range at 80:1 or more it gets pretty stout. The real power is on 4 tires with 5000#'s on them not 2 tires with 2300lbs on them. The L will put on a nice smoke show that is it. Kind of like a 2wd on a boat ramp trying to pull a boat out. Power isn't a factor tracion is. The 4wd can idle the load out of the water.I'm here and I have K5 and $100. Come on over.
Like Terry states the torque multiplication in 4WD low is amazing. The 4WD will just drag the L down the street. I could do all the coefficient of friction calculations and all that engineering crap, but it's more fun to experiment. Go try it, be careful, do not to use chains and it's a good idea to run the strap through a tire in case something breaks.

Do not use the hitch balls, if one breaks it will go flying through the rear window of the other truck.

The best way that we found was to put a grade 8 bolt through the receivers of each truck's hitch and run a 30,000 lb tow strap around each of the bolts.

Yes, I've done this before, same torque arguement with a Dodge boy that had the new Cummings extended cab diesel two wheel drive, that he claimed could pull anything...the K5 won. Yes, we were :beer: .

Just in case there are any none believers, I still have the bolt in my hitch and the 10K lb strap that we broke. Looking for the hitch ball now that almost killed us.

Mark

[dboat]

I agree its about the Coefficient of Drag.. btw, no low gear allowed, its not part of the bet. I am thinking that depending on the temp the 295's on the L will get more traction than the Dodge.. but he does have 4 tires, albeit they are skinnier. I told him I wanted slicks but I dont think that is in the equation either. Interesting to see the responses.. I think we need to actually do this and video the results just for fun...



Remember, vote and vote often...



Dana

[Mark #2]

I agree its about the Coefficient of Drag.. btw, no low gear allowed, its not part of the bet. I am thinking that depending on the temp the 295's on the L will get more traction than the Dodge.. but he does have 4 tires, albeit they are skinnier. I told him I wanted slicks but I dont think that is in the equation either. Interesting to see the responses.. I think we need to actually do this and video the results just for fun...



Remember, vote and vote often...



Dana
The coefficient of drag has nothing to do with it, it's Friction/weight. I have at least $100 if you want go against the K5.......but let the brothers go video and be careful, trust me this is dangerous. :)
Mark

[Sixpipes]

With decent rubber, the 4X4 wins easily...........even if it is a Dodge. :cool:

[blueoval01]

Dana,
Me thinks your crazy to risk damage to your L, yourself, brothers truck or brother.
If you guys have to prove who has the bigger nuts.
Then drop your pants and let an independant source determine the outcome.
:rolleyes:
You can then, spare us the video.

[Logan]

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[Mark #2]

1. The coefficient of static friction for rubber on concrete is

1. 1000

2. 1

3. 0.001

4. 10-6


2. The magnitude of the kinetic friction force

1. is always less than the magnitude of the maximum static force.

2. can be much larger than the maximum static friction force.

3. is proportional to the speed of the object.

4. None of the above.


3. The ultimate cause of friction

1. is the normal force acting on all objects.

2. is the weight of all objects.

3. is the electrostatic force between surface atoms.

4. is the repulsive force between surface atoms.


4. Abrasion

1. is another name for friction.

2. is a consequence of the forces between surface atoms.

3. is proportional to the coefficient of kinetic friction.

4. is not discussed in the reading assignment.

[cpeapea]

yow...

[Sixpipes]

It is a common observation that once set in motion objects invariably come to rest. Throw a book across a table, it will slide to a stop. Even a hockey puck on a slippery ice surface will EVENTUALLY come to rest. This was a significant hindrance to understanding the laws by which the Universe behaves, leading Aristotle to mistakenly conclude that the natural state of motion was rest. But, as Galileo and Newton established, the natural state of motion is constant velocity, obtained whenever the net force on an object is zero. So, we can clearly conclude that the net force on a book sliding to a stop is NOT zero (why?). The unseen force that so misled Aristotle is what we refer to as friction. The ultimate cause of friction in most cases is the attraction that molecules in one surface have for the molecules in the other, and is generally a quite tough problem to analyze from first principles. There is much scientific work on this and the science of studying the forces that arise when surfaces rub past each other is called tribology. Friction is more often handled by what are called empirical methods. In short, empirical methods are those in which you measure things rather than trying to calculate them using Newton's laws - in fact, science is a continuous back-and-forth dynamic between both methods.


Friction is generally grouped in two classes; kinetic, in which the two surfaces are in relative motion and static, in which they are not. Empirically, it is often (but not invariably) found that the maximum static frictional force is directly proportional to the normal force of contact between the two surfaces in question (why is this different from saying that the static frictional force is proportional to the normal force?). That is, an empty sled is easier to get sliding than a heavily loaded one. The constant of proportionality is called the coefficient of static friction, and the empirical statement above can be written:

N f S MAX S µ = , (1)

where fS,MAX is the maximum static frictional force, µS is the coefficient of static friction, and N is the force of contact between the two surfaces.


Basically, Dana, this means you lose. :D (http://www.phys.selu.edu/dave/classes/PLAB223/staticfriction.pdf)

[dboat]

Basically, Dana, this means you lose. :D (http://www.phys.selu.edu/dave/classes/PLAB223/staticfriction.pdf)
Dennis, I hate it when you sugar coat it that way..:evil .. He is happy believe me, although we may just have to do it because we can... if we do, it will be videoed and posted..

[my2002lightning]

Dana,

Now, was the original bet that your bro. would be in 4x4 or 2x4 ?!?

Yes, IMHO, I would think that sq. inches of PULLING traction surface and amt. of HP/TQ applied in one direction will determine the victor.

First, try the heavy-duty nylon, etc tow-strap setup with said opposing team in 2 wheel drive (and maybe some 50 lb. sacks of Quik-Rete/sand/salt, etc behind the axles in the L... no mentioning of traction "enhancements" in the original throw-down?).

Your main strength in this sitation is #1) TQ and #2) traction.

Yes, my 12th grade tooth pick bridge won 1st place in Physics class and held up more than 60 lbs. ! :beer: So, I know a little of physics... or something.

It's ironic you should mention this, Dana - but my younger brother Regan just bought a '9x Dodge black extended cab 4x4 lift w/35" meats 5.7L/360ci.~ this week and keeps talking sheet on me about the off-road/hunting virtues of his rig v. the L. :rolleyes:

I've taken Laney/Regan from a dead-standstill on a long blacktop straight-away in the L up to 100+ and I saw brother Regan getting a LITTLE fidgety in the passenger seat! :d

Them Dodge boys don't mean no harm! :D http://www.topeuro.co.uk/blagger/the_duel.html
They just need to be put in their place!

Now, WHEN you win...just give 'em the http://www.libragrrl.com/forums/images/smilies/hump.gif and the http://www.libragrrl.com/forums/images/smilies/bryce.gif

Ronald:eek2: :D

[microsuck]

well, after owning 3 4x4's I have to throw out a new concept. stock 4X4 diff's dont lock up, so the most he could ever have spinning would be 2 wheels. one on the rear will grab and one on the front will grab. the others will stay put cause the diff wont be giving them any power. unless they have detroit lockers or something. our trucks spin each at the same time. no one wheel peels like a 4x4. watch the cooters in their 4x4 diesal trucks at the track next time. one wheel peel. but I would take 2 rear L tires over 2 dodge mud tires any day. and ps, dana, that dodge has a 5.9l.
Andrew
and also, if you could pull him in reverse you could use his heigth to your favor. it would lift your weight onto your rear tires.

[L8 APEX]

Even an open diff applys power to both axles. It is when there is a traction difference between the two will one spin. Most 4wd's have posi's just like the L. All of my Z-71's had them and worked well, RPO G80 Eaton Gov-Lock. They would always spin 3 sometimes 4 on snow and dirt. I had a 85 Z28 HO and even though it had an open diff the 400hp engine would spin both tires anywhere:burnout: .

[diablolightning]

I was gonna say the same thing andrew they are 5.9's.
I think that it is pointless but wouldn't mind seeing that pull off (lliterally)

Dana be carefull. as was stated earlier don't use chains use rope type material and maybe a comforter or old piece of carpet to cover the tailgate just in cas:vomit: :eek: <-------------dodge boy

[Mark #2]

Even an open diff applys power to both axles. It is when there is a traction difference between the two will one spin. Most 4wd's have posi's just like the L. All of my Z-71's had them and worked well, RPO G80 Eaton Gov-Lock. They would always spin 3 sometimes 4 on snow and dirt. I had a 85 Z28 HO and even though it had an open diff the 400hp engine would spin both tires anywhere:burnout: .
Okay, $1000 versus the 180 Hp K5, if I do nothing but stand on the brakes you can't win, and if there are two of you willing to connect to the K5 I might take another bet...it would be close, but I think I would still have the weight/friction advantage. Are you getting it yet??

Mark

[microsuck]

here's solution 1. do the pull off. just get a big 'ole winch from warn or something. mount it on a ranch hand bumper on the front of your L, stretch it over to his bumper. get in start it. put the brakes all the way to the floor and reel her in:D used to to that all day long to my friends cars in HS. ah, the joys of being a redneck.

here's solution 2. tie them up and pull. but before you meet, youhave installed a secret batman oil squriter under your bumper and as soon as he gets in the cab lay down a slick of oil and he will slide arround all day. if he asks afterwards just say he must have a leak somewhere.
andrew