So Mark?????????????

[03LightningRocks]

What gives.............what happened at the dyno?

[Silver_2000]

Dyno was cancelled due to rain and Speedworks paranoia

Thread was deleted

Doug

[03LightningRocks]

Dyno was cancelled due to rain and Speedworks paranoia

Thread was deleted

Doug

:tu:

He has my curiousity going on the merits of not running a chip.


Rocks

[my2002lightning]

I'd be interested in hearing the "no chip" approach, too.

Ronald

[L8 APEX]

:tu:

He has my curiousity going on the merits of not running a chip.


RocksAdam's truck won't run well above idle without his chip.

[Silver_2000]

Sixer has run his for quite a while with no chip - under various mod levels

[03LightningRocks]

OK....here it is again..........your making me dizzy(unamed person).

Depending on the mods you have done, it seems like the computer would adjust to various situations...without a chip.

I think the big factors on the stock computer are items such as changing fuel injectors( when I upsized mine, I ran so rich you could distill my exhaust and come up with gashttp://www.talonclub.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif ) and issues related to pegging the MAS beyond 5 volts, where the computer seems to loose it's ability to figure out how much fuel to add.

I have noticed on quite a few dyno graphs of higher H.P./higher boost(beyond about 16lbs) pulls, that the A/F starts slopping dangerously up near the end of the pull. This coincides with the peak boost being reached. At this point, we are moving more air past our MAS than it can read and decipher.

Myself and others have been known to blame the fuel pumps or injectors. I saw the same thing happen after i had bigger injectors and fuel pumps, so my conclusion was a pegged MAS. I did several pulls while data logging and saw it happen time and time again. I had a ProM put on that was tuned for higher air sensing situations. The A/F stayed steady all the way to the end of the pull and the MAS volts stayed below 4.73.

Alot of money has been made by tuners, retuning chips every time a fellow upsized his lower pully. I had run my tune with every boost situation from 8lbs all the way up to 18lbs and in every instance the A/F stayed in a range from 11.8-12.1...but I also had the issue of the MAS causing the fuel to go very lean just at the end of the pull at higher than 15lbs of boost. My Apten port job caused this to worsen and at a lower RPM.


The point of all this is to say that I believe the stock computer can control fuel levels at higher boosts than most of us have thought in the past. I haven't pushed this theory like Mark is wanting to do.

[Mark #2]

OK....here it is again..........your making me dizzy(unamed person).

Depending on the mods you have done, it seems like the computer would adjust to various situations...without a chip.

I think the big factors on the stock computer are items such as changing fuel injectors( when I upsized mine, I ran so rich you could distill my exhaust and come up with gashttp://www.talonclub.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif ) and issues related to pegging the MAS beyond 5 volts, where the computer seems to loose it's ability to figure out how much fuel to add.

I have noticed on quite a few dyno graphs of higher H.P./higher boost(beyond about 16lbs) pulls, that the A/F starts slopping dangerously up near the end of the pull. This coincides with the peak boost being reached. At this point, we are moving more air past our MAS than it can read and decipher.

Myself and others have been known to blame the fuel pumps or injectors. I saw the same thing happen after i had bigger injectors and fuel pumps, so my conclusion was a pegged MAS. I did several pulls while data logging and saw it happen time and time again. I had a ProM put on that was tuned for higher air sensing situations. The A/F stayed steady all the way to the end of the pull and the MAS volts stayed below 4.73.

Alot of money has been made by tuners, retuning chips every time a fellow upsized his lower pully. I had run my tune with every boost situation from 8lbs all the way up to 18lbs and in every instance the A/F stayed in a range from 11.8-12.1...but I also had the issue of the MAS causing the fuel to go very lean just at the end of the pull at higher than 15lbs of boost. My Apten port job caused this to worsen and at a lower RPM.


The point of all this is to say that I believe the stock computer can control fuel levels at higher boosts than most of us have thought in the past. I haven't pushed this theory like Mark is wanting to do.
Ron, thanks for all your input and recommendations. I will run around on the street this week without a chip to allow the computer to "learn" which I also question that it really does, it's not like there are AI chips in the ECU. We are talking about look up tables.

Regards,
Mark

[L8 APEX]

You need a scan tool to look at the fuel trims both short and long term. We use that to aid in tuning. The adaptive strategy when left on can add or subtract up to 20-25% of the base fuel tables. Even if it does run on the stock tune you can be guaranteed it is at the upper limits or past the stock tune plus learning corrections. When they are tuned correctly you are near 0% trims. I am sure there are drawbacks to having the PCM modifying the fuel tables itself. The hot trucks turn off the adaptive strategy and run 100% base tables. This kind of tune has to be tailored to the truck. Adaptive strategy is the only reason mail order chips work at all. Because as long as they get the fuel within 20% the computer will correct the rest.
On our 9 sec 713hp C5 we have converted it to a speed density system. We turned off the MAF and it runs our base program all the time. It fixed a lot of issues we had with the computer modifying our tune previously. Now it gets 30mpg highway to a previous 23.

[Tex Arcana]

Nice read, Rocks... food for thought. Same for you, Terry.

Adaptive programs are there for a reason, mainly because conditions change constantly, and straight tables (major cheating by the manufacturers, IMHO) just cannot handle all conditions.

I think this is one of the biggest reasons I've not pulled the trigger on any sort of mods yet, becasue I'm not real happy with the system as designed: works great stock, but goes south in a hurry when it's beyond stock, and the chips and tunes are kludges to fix an essential weakness in the system. I've been told that the knock sensor is disabled, becasue the sounds the blower makes is similar to the sensor: to me, the knock sensor is one of the most important parts of the system, if only because it helps protect the engine from detonation.

There's more.. but what y'all have said is good stuff.. and definitely food for thought. :tu:

[Sixpipes]

Lots of guys over on F150 online say that a 4# pulley is the safe limit on a Lightning without a chip. I have always thought this was :bs and still do. However, there are too many young guys over there that have defected from the Camaro, Firebird, Mustang etc... crowd and think they instanty know everything there is to know about Ford Lightnings. I personally think chips are highly over-rated unless you are using them to adjust the A/F or make timing adjustments. My $.02. :cool:

[Mark #2]

Lots of guys over on F150 online say that a 4# pulley is the safe limit on a Lightning without a chip. I have always thought this was :bs and still do. However, there are too many young guys over there that have defected from the Camaro, Firebird, Mustang etc... crowd and think they instanty know everything there is to know about Ford Lightnings. I personally think chips are highly over-rated unless you are using them to adjust the A/F or make timing adjustments. My $.02. :cool:
Just the engineer here, but, data, data, data, we will have some more next weekend, I know 6er has some too on no chip runs, like low 12s.:tongue:
Thanks to Terry and Ron for thier inputs. Tex, please with the additional comments.
Mark

[Sixpipes]

Just the engineer here, but, data, data, data, we will have some more next weekend, I know 6er has some too on no chip runs, like low 12s.:tongue:
Actually, 12.90 is my best ET without a chip and that was with a 4# pulley. Based on the last dyno I saw of your truck with the KB and no chip (not posted), you should be low 12s and maybe even a high 11 at Hallsville.

[Tex Arcana]

Tex, please with the additional comments.
Mark

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Mark #2]

Nice read, Rocks... food for thought. Same for you, Terry.

Adaptive programs are there for a reason, mainly because conditions change constantly, and straight tables (major cheating by the manufacturers, IMHO) just cannot handle all conditions.

I think this is one of the biggest reasons I've not pulled the trigger on any sort of mods yet, becasue I'm not real happy with the system as designed: works great stock, but goes south in a hurry when it's beyond stock, and the chips and tunes are kludges to fix an essential weakness in the system. I've been told that the knock sensor is disabled, becasue the sounds the blower makes is similar to the sensor: to me, the knock sensor is one of the most important parts of the system, if only because it helps protect the engine from detonation.

There's more.. but what y'all have said is good stuff.. and definitely food for thought. :tu:
My statement for additional comments was based on your statement above "There's more..."
Mark

[Tex Arcana]

My statement for additional comments was based on your statement above "There's more..."
Mark

oh.. I think you left out a word... hence my confusion.

There's ALWAYS more, as I'm always thinking of this stuff, and reading up on it.. just not today. :)

[Silver_2000]

You need a scan tool to look at the fuel trims both short and long term. We use that to aid in tuning. The adaptive strategy when left on can add or subtract up to 20-25% of the base fuel tables. Even if it does run on the stock tune you can be guaranteed it is at the upper limits or past the stock tune plus learning corrections. When they are tuned correctly you are near 0% trims. I am sure there are drawbacks to having the PCM modifying the fuel tables itself. The hot trucks turn off the adaptive strategy and run 100% base tables. This kind of tune has to be tailored to the truck. Adaptive strategy is the only reason mail order chips work at all. Because as long as they get the fuel within 20% the computer will correct the rest.
On our 9 sec 713hp C5 we have converted it to a speed density system. We turned off the MAF and it runs our base program all the time. It fixed a lot of issues we had with the computer modifying our tune previously. Now it gets 30mpg highway to a previous 23.
Well our local tuner hit the nail on the head - The Long term fuel trims were at 23% - And the exhaust smelled like a refinery

[Mark #2]

Yup, but with a 90MAF on a stock CUX2, why would I be running rich? Should be lean. Will post more data as I acquire. FYI AirAid runs IAT1 about 10 degrees above ambient. IAT2 was at 130 F at steady 70 mph.

Now I am really dangerous, an engineer with data.

L8 check your sites e-mail address. I sent you a request.

Mark