WTF Type Question

[03LightningRocks]

Am I alone in noticing that running 10's is quicky becoming nothing special?

I am wondering when the tech fellers at the tracks are going to start busting some chops about the trucks not being properly equiped for 10's.
I'm not just talking about a roll bar. I am talking after market axles and retainers. Transmission blankets...flexplate/flywheel shields. The trucks will be running nines before we know it and then even more safety equipment is required. The usual vendors don't seem to be comming up with much for this situation.

Is someone going to get seriously hurt before it becomes urgent? Some of these guys are getting past 130 MPH.

Thoughts???


Rocks:confused:

[PoorSvtman]

I agree. the only saftey thing i see vendors selling it drive shaft loops..

Ive had a flywheel cut through tranny like butter before. It was on a honda but highly boosted and i guess the first pass with slicks at the street races didnt go well together.

[L8 APEX]

It is hard to get street folks to respect track safety. Most scoff at it until it is too late. It will be interesting when the belt tightens up to see who puts up or slows down. I see it all day long on the street where guys build fast 4800lb sleds and never upgrade the brakes to match.

[tiffo60]

if one of our transmission takes a violent crap will we have to worry about parts coming up through the floor?

[PoorSvtman]

if one of our transmission takes a violent crap will we have to worry about parts coming up through the floor?


considr a flywheel spinning at a few thousand rpms... It probly could.

[tiffo60]

considr a flywheel spinning at a few thousand rpms... It probly could.

note to self!!!

[dboat]

Rocks, I think you are 100% right.. and you know something, somewhere will happen, then it will hit the fan. We can only hope that when it does happen, no one will get hurt.
Dana

[03LightningRocks]

I have been trying to find some solutions for the lack of safety equipment in my own Lightning. It isn't easy. I really need to get a tranny blanket and flexplate/flywheel shield. It has gotten to where I look at my floor board everytime I get in my truck, knowing that if stuff breaks loose, it will be comming straight up at me.

Figure it out Terry...then start selling the bolt on kits to all these fast Gen 2 drivers.

The comments about a spectator getting hurt are valid also. That would just suck to have to know my crap comming apart caused someone else serious injury.


Rocks

[03LightningRocks]

Somebody must have read my mind...LOL. It's a beginning I guess.

http://www.f150online.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219497

[WA 2 FST]

Let me start off by saying that I have always done my best to abide by the NHRA rules, and to make sure I had the proper safety equipment for the times/speeds I was running.

This is just one of the things to consider when trying to make any vehicle a true street/strip machine. It is much easier to just build a strip vehicle, and the alternative (street-only) doesn't go over too well with the horsepower junkies like most of us. Safety equipment costs $$ (no matter the primary usage of the vehicle) and it can often be prohibitive on "street" cars (intrusive roll cage designs, c-clip eliminator axle bearings ... not great for going around corners, etc).

However, many of these rules were written long, long ago when vastly inferior parts graced the shelves. Flywheels/flexplates are lighter and stronger now, and so are clutches. I'm not saying that one coudn't explode, but this is not something you need to sit in fear about when you're lining up at the track or you downshift your truck on the street. If you're concerned about the strength of your flexplate, then get one that is SFI rated. It will be stronger than stock, and will handle more power than you'll ever make. Also, auto trans vehicles do not shock the driveline like a stickshift trans, so there is _far_ less of a chance of a flying flexplate than a flywheel that gets spun to 6-7k before the clutch is suddenly released. Also remember that these trannies are put behind 1-ton diesels which can have a lot more TQ output than even a highly modded L. Granted, they do not spin the same rpms, and they are not typically running high(er) rpm stall converters...so they do not have lots of violent activity on launch. But the point being is that you're not talking about some weak parts... and I'm just speaking about stock parts, not aftermarket goodies which conform to much more strict SFI requirements to get their appropriate ratings.

99 out of 100x if/when a late model trans explodes or blows up, the pieces disintegrate...so they no longer have the mass to cause lots of carnage even if they were to start bouncing around inside the trans case itself (which is highly unlikely anyway). Think about what typically breaks in a late model manual trans... its a shift fork (manual trans) or worst case a main shaft. You don't have gears flying off the main shaft or counter shaft. It snaps and immediately the power to the part is gone. You would literally have to have all the shafts break at the same time, and pressed on gears coming apart for the case to be in danger of blowing open. It happens at times, but usually the results are a small hole in the pan or case... not all the way through the floorboard.

Ever see a 10-second Lightning crash? I'm sure there are some that have, but the number is miniscule (and I'm using per capita numbers) compared to a '70s Monza that also runs 10s (you guys remember Hallsville last February, with that idiot in the beat-up car and poorly setup suspension...and he was only running high-11s). My point is that the modern day musclecars/trucks are far safer at high speeds and under more power than anything out there when these rules were put into effect.

Now I say all this with a healthy respect to the fact that you can put too much power to stock parts (see Poorsvtman's comment about the over-powered Honda). I had a FMS "Heavy Duty" aluminum driveshaft blow apart on me on a low-11 second pass in my '90 Mustang. The fact is that part was not designed for what I was using it for. Plus, I had ~95 passes with it on full slicks, 5000rpm clutch drops, etc. My fault. Fortunately, I had a d/s loop. :) I also had the requisite blowproof scattershield, 6-pt cage, SFI rated balancer, flywheel/clutch pressure plate, c-clip eliminators, etc.

Doing smart things like replacing u-joints after XX # of passes would solve lots of potential problems. Check suspension mounting points and torque specs on said parts. For guys leaving "high and hard", I would check motor and trans mounts often, and probably replace them after XX # of passes on slicks. Small vibrations in the drivetrain/driveline can lead to failures that otherwise would not have occured. Solid mounts also mean more NVH which is unwanted for a real street vehicle.

Realize too that guys running really fast typically rebuild trannies/converters/clutches/driveline parts every season if they put a lot of time on them. Lighter cars (Mustang for example) running 9s with full drag suspension will very often require this every year, if not after 50-55 passes. It's just a nature of the beast. This also _drastically_ reduces the already miniscule chance of a catastrophic failure.

Again, please understand I'm not condoning dodging the rules or anything like that. But I don't think people should be concerned about getting injured... to a point. Terry is right... 4800lb truck + lots of HP over stock = harder to stop, so get some brakes. ;)

Rocks... do you already have an upgraded, SFI-rated flexplate?

[PoorSvtman]

The honda i was in had all upgraded parts that were supposed to handle more power than we were putting out..

Its rare but you can still get that one part that just desides to fall apart. They make scatter shields for hondas that bolt around the outside of the tranny. It uses longer bolts and grade 8 in cerntain spots and all bolts up to stock locations. I dont see why something like this cant be made for our trucks.

[03LightningRocks]

SFI Flexplate.............not that I know of. I never asked for one. So most likely no.

The flaw in the logic concerning 10 second trucks wrecking is that until recently, there where not that many out there. For the longest time, the 10 second list on NLOC had maybe 2 or 3 trucks. Now it's around 30+ trucks. The eleven second list has more than doubled. It has become easier than ever to lay out the cash and get a ten second truck. Guys are now making their trucks 10 second rides within a year or so...It took me over two years to get to the high ten level. One of the most recent guys to acheive a low 10 second pass has sh!t for driving experience. He dropped off a stock truck to JDM on the way home from buying it. Poof...10 second ride. He has made maybe 10 passes in that truck. I watched them having to tell him what the green light meant...LOL in NH last year.

In my opinion...part of going faster successfully has to do with getting used to your ride at slower speeds and working your way to a faster ride.


Rocks

[my2002lightning]

I realize I'm out of my element, but I've spoken with one drag-racer many-moons ago. :tongue: All I remember (circa. 1990) was his caged Chevy had huge slicks, twin Holley 750 Double-Pumpers sitting on a huge high-rise tunnel-ram. It was a 454 bored-out to some crazy CID with some T400 behind it.

He mentioned that he'd had fly-wheels and torque converters disintegrate on launch and cut steering columns in two and chunks out his frames!:eek2:

Safety first.:tu:

Ronald

[WA 2 FST]

SFI Flexplate.............not that I know of. I never asked for one. So most likely no.

The flaw in the logic concerning 10 second trucks wrecking is that until recently, there where not that many out there. For the longest time, the 10 second list on NLOC had maybe 2 or 3 trucks. Now it's around 30+ trucks. The eleven second list has more than doubled. It has become easier than ever to lay out the cash and get a ten second truck. Guys are now making their trucks 10 second rides within a year or so...It took me over two years to get to the high ten level. One of the most recent guys to acheive a low 10 second pass has sh!t for driving experience. He dropped off a stock truck to JDM on the way home from buying it. Poof...10 second ride. He has made maybe 10 passes in that truck. I watched them having to tell him what the green light meant...LOL in NH last year.

In my opinion...part of going faster successfully has to do with getting used to your ride at slower speeds and working your way to a faster ride.


Rocks

I agree that it is wise to "work down" to a given ET. Successful drag racers are experienced. They also have the least chance of getting hurt. Pretty much goes with anything in life.

But while this may be a relatively new thing WRT Lightnings (10-sec and faster being more commonplace) it is not with other vehicles. It's just a matter of how fast your wallet can take you. If you spend $$, then you can go really fast. I still think that properly set up, these things are very safe compared to what used to be out there at the tracks (even 15 years ago). And that being said, part of being safe is using your head. Just b/c you can buy a 9 or 10-second vehicle, doesn't mean you can drive it. There are plenty of Ferrari and Porsche owners who have found out the hard way on high-speed open track race courses. But that's not the fault of the vehicle, either.

I realize I may be in the minority here, but I'm willing to bet that 95+% of failures occurred using inferior parts. They may have been the best parts available at a given time, but they are not the parts available now.

I'm not bashing safety. I'm merely stating that chances of failure today are a far cry from yesteryear, and using the proper parts cuts down "catastrophic failure" to next-to-nothing given the rather mundane speeds/times we are talking about here.

This doesn't help regarding getting the safety equipment you need if it is not available. :( I will venture that places like Texas Motorplex and Houston Raceway Park will go by the book. Hallsville and some of the smaller tracks don't. They need the business. Ever been out to Cedar Creek? "You got a workin' seatbelt in that there thang?"

[03LightningRocks]

Is cedar creek also known as yellow belly? If so...I have heard some pretty bad stories of that place.

FFW has put the word out that the tech rules are going to be adhered to strickly this upcomming season. After some of the issues we had last year over rules violations, they are going to crack down. With my set up the way it is now...I will not be allowed to run 10's and compete. Jim has made some modifications to a couple of his trucks to the axles and rear ends to make them compliant. He basicly changed out the whole rear end, but has since sold them. It will run in the 3500 range as it stands now for the job since it is basicly custom fab work.

We will see what happens. Realisticly I don't believe my wheels/axles are going to come flying off anyway. But that is really not the point. Complying with the rule book, even if we don't think it is needed, is what they are going for this year.


Rocks

[03LightningRocks]

One more point I will make. Your right about other vehicles running 10's, but even the number of those vehicles running 10's has increased dramaticly. I will say this. 3 years ago, seeing street rides doing 10's at the track where few and far between. There would be one or two..maybe three hotshots running 10's during one of Ennis's street nights. Now it is nothing unusual.

Another very important aspect is the aerodynamics. Our trucks/bricks, don't have any. It is a very different animal than a Vet or Porsche doing the same speed. The vet/porsche is designed from the factory to go that fast. Our bricks aren't...especially once you start putting under rated skinnies on the front and slicks out back. These trucks drive like **** at the big end...gawd help you if you have to make some kind of swerving manuever. The weight distribution alone can roll your ass before you know it.

Rocks

[QDRHRSE]

Rocks, I think you are 100% right.. and you know something, somewhere will happen, then it will hit the fan. We can only hope that when it does happen, no one will get hurt.
Dana

Any crash involving a 2 1/2 ton truck going 130+ mph is going to be catastrophic. I'm always surprised when I see pictures of your trucks @ the track. Most of them would not tech here, @ my home track. They are very strict.

[benyouall]

rocks is right.our trucks are heavy high horsepower,and have many ways of geting away from us at the track and on the street.try losing a rod or three at ennis on slicks,oil and water on the slicks at or over 100 a little fire, will make you want to change your underwear. ben

[WA 2 FST]

rocks is right.our trucks are heavy high horsepower,and have many ways of geting away from us at the track and on the street.try losing a rod or three at ennis on slicks,oil and water on the slicks at or over 100 a little fire, will make you want to change your underwear. ben

And something like this could happen even if you have a 13 second truck.

I agree that a high HP _anything_ running slicks and skinnies is not going to handle like an F1 car at _any_ speed... 30mph or 150mph. Add in more overall weight, higher center of gravity, relatively poor aerodynamics (this can be improved somewhat in a race-only application) and you just exacerbate the problem.

I hope no one thinks I am condoning dodging the rules. However, I wouldn't be concerned with getting behind the wheel of a 10-second truck without a flexplate shield or c-clip eliminators, _IF_ the proper components were used in the first place. That's just me based on my own personal racing experience and a healthy understanding of the forces involved in "shocking" the driveline in a vehicle equipped with an auto trans vs. a stick trans.

A cage is required at 11.49 or 11.99 depending on which rule book you're using. Get one. Believe it or not, assuming the rest of the suspension is ironed out (this is what most people do not consider... they build a high HP vehicle and forget to set it up so it will go straight on slicks/skinnies), the cage does more than just protect you in the slight chance you'd ever need it. If engineered and installed properly, it will make the vehicle more stable and it will go straighter down the track. You may lose a tiny bit of MPH due to the added weight, but you may not sacrifice _any_ ET b/c the vehicle will launch straighter (meaning you can launch it harder) and track better. If you've already maximized your ET for the given power you have, then you will lose some ET due to the added weight... so its time to figure out how to save some weight or pick up some ponies.

I just have to wonder how many of these 10-second trucks have things like SFI rated flexplates and harmonic balancers. The mention of throwing a rod or splitting a crank is real... and an SFI balancer is required for a reason, too. Beef up the driveline parts to spec and the chances of failure that will lead to a crash, tranny splitting open, etc are _drastically_ reduced.

[QDRHRSE]

....going back to some earlier threads- do L's actually need c-clip eliminators? The disc brakes should be enought to keep an axle from sliding out. Just a thought.....

[WA 2 FST]

....going back to some earlier threads- do L's actually need c-clip eliminators? The disc brakes should be enought to keep an axle from sliding out. Just a thought.....

Good point. As far as true safety, I would agree that the axles should be ok w/ disc brakes in place. As far as how a tech inspector views it... I have run into a few that have said it doesn't matter, you still have to have them.

[03LightningRocks]

....going back to some earlier threads- do L's actually need c-clip eliminators? The disc brakes should be enought to keep an axle from sliding out. Just a thought.....

That is true...theoretically. Problem is, tech officials at the tracks are facing insurance/lawsuit situations if they let safety issues slide.

I am as bad as the next guy on trying to slip in a good time that is beyond my safety equipment. But at the same time, if some asswipe has a screw up on the track and causes me damage, I will own that muther focking track if the tech let the vehicle run beyond it's safety level.

So I guess it is a two edged sword. We all hate to drop the coin for safety crap we don't feel is needed...but nobody wants to get jacked up because the driver in the other lane was trying to be a cheap arse with his safety mods.

Rocks:cool:

[WA 2 FST]

Ron,

All true. Hence my comment about Cedar Creek... which is not Yellow Belly. I saw cars running with loose bumpers, etc. Only made a few solo passes and then went home.

Rules as simple as long axle studs when running slicks are important. I've seen cars shear off studs and wind up hitting the Christmas tree.

Plus, if the playing field is going to be even and as fair as possible, then everyone should have to follow all the rules. After numerous finishes in the top 5-10% of the True Street 5.0 class, this is what got me very frustrated. Why bother trying to be the fastest and be legal (for my regular racing fun) when some tracks would notoriously let some of the faster cars through when they weren't even close to being legal.

Hopefully you'll be able to procure the parts you need.

[QDRHRSE]

They are so strict at my local track that I won't even put my car on DR's. They check everything. I have made reference to that fact in a lot of my posts. My Mustang is a 10 sec ride but I only run in street trim, and see 12 second passes on radials, because they always give me a hard time about my ds loop, studs, belts....it's too much work to drive the car to the track. I hope they aren't so picky with the L.