Gun Talk

[SpeedyBolt]

Me and this cop got into a debate the other day about handguns. The conversation started when I asked what he carried and the answer was like most cops a .40 cal. I then asked why most cops carry a .40 cal over a .357sig and he said that the .357 was just too small of a bullet. I told him that it may very well be a smaller bullet but it packs more of a punch than his .40 cal does. Anyway the debate went on for a long time, I guess the reason for the post is why is the general idea of bigger is always better? I hear alot of old timmers that can't let go of thier .45's beacuse they think it is just it.

[Wht95Lightning]

40 cal ammo is cheaper. If 357Sig ammo was the same price as 40S&W I'll bet a lot more departments would use the 357Sig.
Ballistically, the difference is small but for what it's worth the dept of homeland security, air marshalls, etc, all carry Sig Pistols chambered in 357 Sig.

Info from www.doubletapammo.com (http://www.doubletapammo.com)

Caliber : .357 Sig

Bullet : 125gr. Gold Dot JHP

Ballistics : 1450fps / 584 ft. lbs. 4"bbl
----------------------------------------------
Caliber : .40 S&W

Bullet : Gold Dot Lineup

Ballistics : 165gr. @ 1200fps / 528 ft/lbs- Glock 23 (4.0"bbl)

[SpeedyBolt]

yeah the ammo is expensive, tha's why I don't shoot mine too much. I really want to get a 10mm also. If I ever get to be a LEO that's what I'm going to carry.

[Ivanhoe_Farms]

40 cal ammo is cheaper. If 357Sig ammo was the same price as 40S&W I'll bet a lot more departments would use the 357Sig.
Ballistically, the difference is small but for what it's worth the dept of homeland security, air marshalls, etc, all carry Sig Pistols chambered in 357 Sig.

Info from www.doubletapammo.com (http://www.doubletapammo.com)

Caliber : .357 Sig

Bullet : 125gr. Gold Dot JHP

Ballistics : 1450fps / 584 ft. lbs. 4"bbl
----------------------------------------------
Caliber : .40 S&W

Bullet : Gold Dot Lineup

Ballistics : 165gr. @ 1200fps / 528 ft/lbs- Glock 23 (4.0"bbl)


In defense shooting, the gold standard is relative stopping power or RSP.

The .45, .40, and .357 sig all have relatively the same RSP, depending on barrel length , bullet weight, and velocity combinations.:tu:

Here is an article that explains it.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/beginners_stopping_power.htm

[SpeedyBolt]

I just found this on the net.

FPE= M(VxV)/450400
Mass(velocity*velocity)/450400

(e.g.) 180gr(3250x3250)/450400=4221FPE

[Beaudee]

yeah the ammo is expensive, tha's why I don't shoot mine too much. I really want to get a 10mm also. If I ever get to be a LEO that's what I'm going to carry.
My preff. is the 10mm also.I have a good friend who is a cop and he carrys a 10mm.Clip holds a lot of firepower.:tu:

[jeff56]

I'd carry what you can afford to shoot often so than you will shoot it well.

[L8 APEX]

All pistol calibers suck, as long as it is above 9mm it will buy you time to get to a rifle or shotgun.

[Shiner1]

All pistol calibers suck, as long as it is above 9mm it will buy you time to get to a rifle or shotgun.

:rll:

I guess I'm an old timer. I have nothing against any pistol or ammo, but I grew up shooting a .45, I carried one AF and thats my hand gun now. Creature of habit I guess.

[L8 APEX]

You're prolly old to boot as well but:D . My statement is coming from a tactical mindset. Where pistols are 100% defensive and last resort. You first want to grab your tactical rifle or shotgun. They are offensive weapons becuase of their power and longer range, accuracy. You see pistol = defensive weapon.
rifle, shotgun = offensive weapon.
If you shoot someone with a pistol they might die eventually.
If you shoot someone with a rifle or shotgun they might live.
The average pistol round has 4-500 ft lbs muzzle energy
Centerfire rifles and 12ga rds start around 3,000 ft lbs.

[Ivanhoe_Farms]

:rll:

I guess I'm an old timer. I have nothing against any pistol or ammo, but I grew up shooting a .45, I carried one AF and thats my hand gun now. Creature of habit I guess.

I use to swear at .45 1911s, now I sware by them.

While I agree with Terry that a pistol is to keep the bad guys away until you can get to a battle rifle or a shotgun, the reality is that a pistol is designed to carry and battle rifles and shotguns are too bulky for most environments:rolleyes:

Here is an excerpt from Chuck Taylor at the American Small Arms Academy.
I've examined the same data as Cooper and been in eight handgun fights myself, as well as dozens more involving other small arms, and I can see readily why he feels the way he does. In fact, in general, I concur with his findings because what I have seen in actual combat mirrors both his views and those of General Hatcher.

Were I to "play the percentages," or base my opinion on a more narrow examination such as (for example) a review of the files of the law enforcement agencies with which I have been associated or draw from my own personal experiences alone, I could legitimately state that .45 ACP 230 gr. "hardball" fired from a M-1911 Colt auto, is 100% effective!
How? Simple -- in all of the departmental shootings in which it was used, it worked. And because in five of the seven pistol fights in which I have been a participant, I used a .45 with ball ammo -- and it worked. I won all five with my first shot, my opponent collapsing before I could fire again. Five center hits, five one-shot stops, five DOS (dead on the scene).
Perfect, right? 100% effective. See what I mean about percentages? It's all in your perspective, isn't it?
The first handgun failure-to-stop (FTS) I experienced was with a 4-inch .357 Magnum and 158 gr. JHPs. My adversary panicked upon realizing he had been hit in the chest, abandoned his weapon and ran a full sixty yards in the opposite direction before he became incapacitated, collapsed and died.
My second FTS was with a 9mm Browning P-35. The subject, a terrorist (who was "rockin' 'n rollin'" an AK-47, fortunately with the stock folded, at me during the entire encounter) was struck under the left nipple by my first shot with no effect. Luckily -- and coincidentally -- my second shot, while it struck within two inches of the first, penetrated sufficiently to shatter his spinal column, both incapacitating and killing him almost instantly.

[my2002lightning]

Milton,

Very good post! Cooper/Taylor (Elmer Keith, too for that matter) were visionaries. :bows:tu:

I understand that alot of the Iraqi-insurgent autopsies reveal high dosages of opiates to "numb" them to what they may encounter in combat - physically and mentally.

Whatever it takes to "neutralize" the potential threat, shot-placement is paramount - regardless of caliber. :cool:

Ronald



I use to swear at .45 1911s, now I sware by them.

While I agree with Terry that a pistol is to keep the bad guys away until you can get to a battle rifle or a shotgun, the reality is that a pistol is designed to carry and battle rifles and shotguns are too bulky for most environments:rolleyes:

Here is an excerpt from Chuck Taylor at the American Small Arms Academy.
I've examined the same data as Cooper and been in eight handgun fights myself, as well as dozens more involving other small arms, and I can see readily why he feels the way he does. In fact, in general, I concur with his findings because what I have seen in actual combat mirrors both his views and those of General Hatcher.

Were I to "play the percentages," or base my opinion on a more narrow examination such as (for example) a review of the files of the law enforcement agencies with which I have been associated or draw from my own personal experiences alone, I could legitimately state that .45 ACP 230 gr. "hardball" fired from a M-1911 Colt auto, is 100% effective!
How? Simple -- in all of the departmental shootings in which it was used, it worked. And because in five of the seven pistol fights in which I have been a participant, I used a .45 with ball ammo -- and it worked. I won all five with my first shot, my opponent collapsing before I could fire again. Five center hits, five one-shot stops, five DOS (dead on the scene).
Perfect, right? 100% effective. See what I mean about percentages? It's all in your perspective, isn't it?
The first handgun failure-to-stop (FTS) I experienced was with a 4-inch .357 Magnum and 158 gr. JHPs. My adversary panicked upon realizing he had been hit in the chest, abandoned his weapon and ran a full sixty yards in the opposite direction before he became incapacitated, collapsed and died.
My second FTS was with a 9mm Browning P-35. The subject, a terrorist (who was "rockin' 'n rollin'" an AK-47, fortunately with the stock folded, at me during the entire encounter) was struck under the left nipple by my first shot with no effect. Luckily -- and coincidentally -- my second shot, while it struck within two inches of the first, penetrated sufficiently to shatter his spinal column, both incapacitating and killing him almost instantly.

[gagspa]

I'd carry what you can afford to shoot often so than you will shoot it well.
I absolutely agree with this! If you can't afford to practice, how do you know that you can hit your target? If you can't hit your target it doesn't matter what caliber you are using.



Here is an excerpt from Chuck Taylor at the American Small Arms Academy.

Were I to "play the percentages," or base my opinion on a more narrow examination such as (for example) a review of the files of the law enforcement agencies with which I have been associated or draw from my own personal experiences alone, I could legitimately state that .45 ACP 230 gr. "hardball" fired from a M-1911 Colt auto, is 100% effective!
How? Simple -- in all of the departmental shootings in which it was used, it worked. And because in five of the seven pistol fights in which I have been a participant, I used a .45 with ball ammo -- and it worked. I won all five with my first shot, my opponent collapsing before I could fire again. Five center hits, five one-shot stops, five DOS (dead on the scene).
Perfect, right? 100% effective. See what I mean about percentages? It's all in your perspective, isn't it?
The first handgun failure-to-stop (FTS) I experienced was with a 4-inch .357 Magnum and 158 gr. JHPs. My adversary panicked upon realizing he had been hit in the chest, abandoned his weapon and ran a full sixty yards in the opposite direction before he became incapacitated, collapsed and died.
My second FTS was with a 9mm Browning P-35. The subject, a terrorist (who was "rockin' 'n rollin'" an AK-47, fortunately with the stock folded, at me during the entire encounter) was struck under the left nipple by my first shot with no effect. Luckily -- and coincidentally -- my second shot, while it struck within two inches of the first, penetrated sufficiently to shatter his spinal column, both incapacitating and killing him almost instantly.

This is an extremely interesting quote from a man with personal experience. Although I do not carry my pistols nor own them for self-protection, this quote would encourage me to carry a .45.

[L8 APEX]

Ball ammo is not my first choice, sounds like NATO anti maming regs to me. High tech ammo is the way to go, bonded core Gold Dot or the like.

[my2002lightning]

I believe they're Geneva Conventions regs. supposedly enforced via NATO.

I'm all about the Black-Talon/Hydra-Shok/Cor-Bon approach.knana



Ball ammo is not my first choice, sounds like NATO anti maming regs to me. High tech ammo is the way to go, bonded core Gold Dot or the like.

[L8 APEX]

We are the only pansies playing by the Geneva rules:bs . It is time to kick them and the UN to the coast into the ocean.

[my2002lightning]

Evidently, we can't march in there unilaterally and assume control. :cool: We have to have Coalition/United-NATO support?:rolleyes:

I'm sure there are so many Black/Covert-Ops ongoing, that it's not even funny in the Hindu-Kush and Tigrus regions, respectfully.

I say we "clean house" - evidently these insurgents/miscreants don't understand the concept of "scorched earth" policy. :cool:

Problem solved.

Ronald




We are the only pansies playing by the Geneva rules:bs . It is time to kick them and the UN to the coast into the ocean.

[Ivanhoe_Farms]

Ball ammo is not my first choice, sounds like NATO anti maming regs to me. High tech ammo is the way to go, bonded core Gold Dot or the like.

Terry,

While I keep hydrashok in the pistol in the house, there are places for ball ammo. I did some tests on a car with different types of ammo, and some of the hypervelocity rounds would not penetrate the door, made some impressive dents, but did not penetrate. When an officer is faced with all kinds of conditions, and since ball ammo appears to stop rather well in a .45, maybe it is not a bad choice.:rolleyes:

BTW, I reload .45 and the cost is about $3.00 a box, so it isn't too prohibitive to shoot!!