Wright Ammendment

[Beaudee]

This big fuss about the W.AM. is just another tactic of A.A. to control the airlines.This amm. was put in place by Braniff and A.A. to screw SWA.A.A. needs to quit there bitchin and compete like everyone else.@ some airports A.A. tripples ticket prices to screw you when all the SWA flights are full.Heck everytime i fly out of DFW,i spend more time on the ground waiting on traffic than in the air.As far as noise the business jets are louder than the 737 flying out of love field.As far as i am concerned the W.Amm. is just a corrupt screwin by a big company to get $$$ from the smaller guy and screw the public in the process.Support on the lifting of the W.Amm. would be greatly appreciated!!!WRIGHT IS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:tu:Lifting of the amm. will reduce ticket prices for everyone!!!

[Tex Arcana]

Beau, you really need to read up on Dallas history before you go off on a tangent like that.

Wright amendment was a masterful(!) bit of politicking, driven by the big boys (AA included), and the governments of the mid-cities and Fort Worth, with the Hon. Wright spearheading it, to create DFW Airport, which would create a centrally-located airport to serve ALL of the metroplex, instead of forcing the outlying population to drive into Dallas to the only regional airport available at the time. Of course, the citizens of Dallas were split on the issue, many in favor of the amendment for the niose abatement; and the rest against it, because of the lost jobs and lost convenience.

In truth, from today's perspective, leaving the regional hub at Love Field is a major mistake, for a number of reasons: traffic, crowding, and noise. At least at DFW, they don't have flight curfews, which *do* exist at Love. The traffic is a given, since there is no real highway trunk feeding the airport, nor will there ever be one. And crowding is obvious as well: the more traffic you run thru it, the more plane have to be based there, and Love just cannot handle that kind of volume.

Personally, I think this repealment of the Wright Amendment (despicable tho it's origins are) is a major mistake. If SWA wants to fly with the big boys, then they need to move out to DFW as well, and fly out of both airports. At this point in the economy, I'm sure they can negotiate a killer deal with DFW and come out smelling like roses; and, while they're at it, they could drop into Alliance with short-haul service as well, and finish locking up that portion of the market with plain ol' good location.

Instead, according to tonight's news, not only has SWA begun their long-haul service, with flights direct to Mizzou, AA has not only moved long-hauls to Love, but has also cut major flights to major cities, leaving most people scratching thier heads and looking for alternatives. Of course, that just means SWA will move into the void and cut AA's throat once again.

[Shiner1]

It seems to me the "big boys" keep cutting their own throat. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't SW the only airline that has been posting profits for like the last 10 years? You hog tie them to Love then tell them you can only fly to certain areas non-stop and they are still kicking everyone's ass. Seems to me that are doin it right.

[Silver_2000]

Beau, you really need to read up on Dallas history before you go off on a tangent like that.

Wright amendment was a masterful(!) bit of politicking, driven by the big boys (AA included), and the governments of the mid-cities and Fort Worth, with the Hon. Wright spearheading it, to create DFW Airport, which would create a centrally-located airport to serve ALL of the metroplex, instead of forcing the outlying population to drive into Dallas to the only regional airport available at the time. Of course, the citizens of Dallas were split on the issue, many in favor of the amendment for the niose abatement; and the rest against it, because of the lost jobs and lost convenience.

In truth, from today's perspective, leaving the regional hub at Love Field is a major mistake, for a number of reasons: traffic, crowding, and noise. At least at DFW, they don't have flight curfews, which *do* exist at Love. The traffic is a given, since there is no real highway trunk feeding the airport, nor will there ever be one. And crowding is obvious as well: the more traffic you run thru it, the more plane have to be based there, and Love just cannot handle that kind of volume.

Personally, I think this repealment of the Wright Amendment (despicable tho it's origins are) is a major mistake. If SWA wants to fly with the big boys, then they need to move out to DFW as well, and fly out of both airports. At this point in the economy, I'm sure they can negotiate a killer deal with DFW and come out smelling like roses; and, while they're at it, they could drop into Alliance with short-haul service as well, and finish locking up that portion of the market with plain ol' good location.

Instead, according to tonight's news, not only has SWA begun their long-haul service, with flights direct to Mizzou, AA has not only moved long-hauls to Love, but has also cut major flights to major cities, leaving most people scratching thier heads and looking for alternatives. Of course, that just means SWA will move into the void and cut AA's throat once again.

You missed the point ... again ....

The issues are DOES AA ( and DFW ) need or deserve protection ?
Does AA charge more at DFW to fly to same places than it does elsewhere ?
Does AA need political protection from smaller more profitable competitors ?
Should Legislators even be in this battle ?
What does restricting SW do besides protect AA's hugely profitable monopoly at DFW ?
Does AA ONLY start charging more reasonable fees when pressed by the likes of SW ? Funny AA is losing money when it has a monoply at one of the worlds biggest airports and SW is making money flying out of many smaller airports and working around the BS protectionism like the Wright amendment.

Doug

[Beaudee]

You missed the point ... again ....

The issues are DOES AA ( and DFW ) need or deserve protection ?
Does AA charge more at DFW to fly to same places than it does elsewhere ?
Does AA need political protection from smaller more profitable competitors ?
Should Legislators even be in this battle ?
What does restricting SW do besides protect AA's hugely profitable monopoly at DFW ?
Does AA ONLY start charging more reasonable fees when pressed by the likes of SW ? Funny AA is losing money when it has a monoply at one of the worlds biggest airports and SW is making money flying out of many smaller airports and working around the BS protectionism like the Wright amendment.

DougPerfectly asked questions Doug!I am just tired of hearing all the whining from A.A..SWA welcomes the competition.DFW has gone beyond the expectations from the original plan,they are already expanding with new terminals.SWA will never fly out of DFW due to airport fees and crowded runways.SWA welcomes competition @ love field.Lifting the ammendment will reduce ticket prices,and save us all money.Maybe i can get off graveyards to someday!:rll:SWA only flys where they can turn a profit!This is what it takes to survive these days."We like to color outside the lines too".Be nice to see the stock go up,its been hovering around $15.00 a share for the last several years.

[Tex Arcana]

You missed the point ... again ....

The issues are DOES AA ( and DFW ) need or deserve protection ?
Does AA charge more at DFW to fly to same places than it does elsewhere ?
Does AA need political protection from smaller more profitable competitors ?
Should Legislators even be in this battle ?
What does restricting SW do besides protect AA's hugely profitable monopoly at DFW ?
Does AA ONLY start charging more reasonable fees when pressed by the likes of SW ? Funny AA is losing money when it has a monoply at one of the worlds biggest airports and SW is making money flying out of many smaller airports and working around the BS protectionism like the Wright amendment.

Doug

Nein, Dougie, you missed MY point altogether: DFW made it possible for the entire Mid-Cities and Fort Worth area to expand like it has. Outside the AA protectionism issue, it was a major boon to the entire area; without DFW, Dallas would've been the center of the economic expansion, and that expansion would've been much smaller than it ended up being, simply because Love is incapable of the expansion needed to support the traffic that goes thru DFW.

Does AA :need: protection?? They *shouldn't*, if only because SWA can make a profit despite the Wright restrictions. Does DFW itself *need* protection?? To an extent, yes, because it serves the ENTIRE region, and not just Dallas. A majority of the noise being made is from the Dallas natives who don't want to drive to DFW (lazy bums that they are), with another portion coming from AA and their questionable business practices. Of course, if SWA were to move long haul ops to DFW, they'd blow AA and anyone else away in short order, so AA at al SHOULD be scared.

[Silver_2000]

Nein, Dougie, you missed MY point altogether: DFW made it possible for the entire Mid-Cities and Fort Worth area to expand like it has. Outside the AA protectionism issue, it was a major boon to the entire area; without DFW, Dallas would've been the center of the economic expansion, and that expansion would've been much smaller than it ended up being, simply because Love is incapable of the expansion needed to support the traffic that goes thru DFW.

Does AA :need: protection?? They *shouldn't*, if only because SWA can make a profit despite the Wright restrictions. Does DFW itself *need* protection?? To an extent, yes, because it serves the ENTIRE region, and not just Dallas. A majority of the noise being made is from the Dallas natives who don't want to drive to DFW (lazy bums that they are), with another portion coming from AA and their questionable business practices. Of course, if SWA were to move long haul ops to DFW, they'd blow AA and anyone else away in short order, so AA at al SHOULD be scared.

trouble with that argument is that people act like the airport needed artificial resuscitation to keep going.. Its growing - its in the top 5 airports in the world I think - The fact that it helped the region grow has a corollary the region helped DFW as well. A region this big NEEDS an airport - and will support a BIG airport -If it wasnt DFW it would have been another.

The SAME kind of thinking is what prompts cities like arlington to bend over backwards to build a house for Jerry Jones to play in. Jerry is one of the richest guys in the country, his team is one of the most profitable - why do the taxpayers have to PAY to build him a place to play ?

Makes NO sense

[Tex Arcana]

trouble with that argument is that people act like the airport needed artificial resuscitation to keep going.. Its growing - its in the top 5 airports in the world I think - The fact that it helped the region grow has a corollary the region helped DFW as well. A region this big NEEDS an airport - and will support a BIG airport -If it wasnt DFW it would have been another.

The SAME kind of thinking is what prompts cities like arlington to bend over backwards to build a house for Jerry Jones to play in. Jerry is one of the richest guys in the country, his team is one of the most profitable - why do the taxpayers have to PAY to build him a place to play ?

Makes NO sense

Yeah, JErryLand makes no sense, except to the few who're getting kickbacks from the citizen raping. :nono:

And, I agree with you, DFW shouldn't need "resuscitation"... if they were smarter, they'd've gotten SWA there for their longhaul stuff, like I siad earlier.

And, on tonite's news: DFW is now charging for curbside check-in. Bastards. And AA is about to charge for soft drinks and snacks. (sigh)

[98Cobra]

I dont doubt that there may have (may) been some good reasons for the Wright Amendment, at its inception. However, I am struggling to see why this large Metroplex must be hamstrung by this legislation, as if this market couldnt support two airports. MANY other cities in this country have more than one airport without this Wright nonsense. What makes us so special?

[my2002lightning]

True, NYC has JFK/LGA, Chicago has MDW/ORD, Los Angeles has LAX/ONT/VNY/PMD and Miami has MIA/FLL. Not to forget Houston's IAH/HOU.

I'm sure there's much more than meets the eye, here.:cool:



MANY other cities in this country have more than one airport without this Wright nonsense. What makes us so special?

[Tex Arcana]

I dont doubt that there may have (may) been some good reasons for the Wright Amendment, at its inception. However, I am struggling to see why this large Metroplex must be hamstrung by this legislation, as if this market couldnt support two airports. MANY other cities in this country have more than one airport without this Wright nonsense. What makes us so special?
Okay, stop and think back to before DFW came into being: the only airport in the region was Love, it was already landlocked as hell, limited in its runway availability and length (747's were pushing the limits already), and access to said airport was already severely compromised. If it had continued like that, with no DFW, the entire region would've sufferred in terms of overall development (how many companies/manufacturers/defense contractors would have moved on to greener pastures without a truly major airport that was easily accessible); extrapolate that, and you get a Dallas that has grown somewhat, and the rest of the outlying areas that became nothing more than additional bedroom communities, with a major societal division between "Dallas" and "the rest of the region" (which was a major issue even before the airport controiversy kicked into play).

Maybe FtWorth would've pushed Alliance (or whatever it was back then) into life as a "major" airport, but that would only work if at least one major airline came in and used it as its base of operations--unlikely in those days, for any number of reasons. Either way, you get a major division in airlines and airport usage, and neither area really develops well because of the bottleneck.

So what do we get? We get DFW Airport, which was a result of ALL the communities in this region (except DAllas, who fought it tooth and nail, and successfully, 'til the Wright Amendment) getting together to put up the land and grant highway accessibility (remember that Love doesn't have that, and could NEVER get it the way Dallas is laid out). ANd the result was a major economic boom for the ENTIRE region-again, not possible with Love.

So how does SWA fit into this picture? Remember SWA's history: Herb Kelleher pulled his ripcord at Braniff, and founded the upstart, and focused on the short-haul routes that the majors (AA, Braniff, Continental, TWA, Delta, etc) were at the time completely ignoring. Houston had already done their "DFW" with Intercontinental, relegating Hobby to the dustbin 'til SWA went in and made it vaiable again; and with the "abandonment" of Love by the majors, SWA had a perfect opportunity to use Love for its base of operations.

(Side note: does anyone here remember when Love's terminal was turned into an amusement park?? Ice and roller skating, pinball and video games, movie theatres? I can't remember the name of the thing, but I do remember hanging out there as a kid. It was done as much to save the terminal from demolition as to just make use of it)

Herb was a smart guy: Braniff went belly-up, SWA cornered a market, and made a mint off the oddball routes the majors were ignoring.

Fast forward to today, and you have an interesting situation: the majors are suffering from "Braniff Syndrome", bleeding massively because they've gotten so big they can't find their asses with a road map; and SWA is so solvent that they can push for the repeal of the Wright Amendment, and get away with it. Imagine how many politicians Herb had to buy to pull *this* little coup off!!

I still think opening up Love to long-haul traffic is a mistake, mainly because the airport is incapable of handling the traffic that will inevitably divert from DFW. The city (if they haven't done it already) will impose a curfew, which will shut down alot of flights from the getgo; and DFW will have to start cutting back to just stay semi-solvent, meaning jobs get lost in the shuffle. Maybe Love picks up a few of the jobs, but in truth only a few, because it's already pushing its own capacity, and will not be able to absorb much more.

To be honest, at this point this area can support *THREE* airports: Love, DFW, Alliance. Love and Alliance can stick to short-haul flights; DFW to the long haul. SWA could move to both DFW and Alliance, and get the best of both worlds. Back when the fight began, SWA was in a position to dictate terms to DFW, and get a sweet deal; now, that can't happen.

In the long run, this will burt more than it will help, and everyone will wish it never happend.

[Silver_2000]

To be honest, at this point this area can support *THREE* airports: Love, DFW, Alliance. Love and Alliance can stick to short-haul flights; DFW to the long haul. SWA could move to both DFW and Alliance, and get the best of both worlds. Back when the fight began, SWA was in a position to dictate terms to DFW, and get a sweet deal; now, that can't happen.

In the long run, this will burt more than it will help, and everyone will wish it never happend.

BS- Complete BS - The LAST thing we need is politicians telling the only Profitable Airline in the country how to run its business. If noise or other reasons are used to limit the size of planes or the takeoff weight from LOVE thats a different story, but right now its not possible to even book a flight on SW to anywhere decent. Remove the amendment and customers could at least SEE what it costs to fly to places like DC from Dallas.

The crap about DFW losing jobs and take off and landings is BS as well. There is no guarantee of growth - nor should there be. The just finished Terminal D - beautiful - but if the growth is slowing we didnt need it.

I just dont buy the crap that we had to sponsor DFW for the good of the region.

Doug

[Sixpipes]

The concept is fairly simple. It takes less dollars to run a regional business compared to a business that it committed to servicing the whole country. The Wright amendment was designed to level the playing field so that SWA could not pick and chose the most profitable routes from American Airlines and go after those while leaving AA holding the bag on other less profitable routes. The Wright amendment was designed to keep SWA from cherry-picking routes from other companies servicing the whole country. Jim Wright was trying to protect American Airlines and I'm sure he was rewarded handsomely for doing so. :cool:

[Silver_2000]

The concept is fairly simple. It takes less dollars to run a regional business compared to a business that it committed to servicing the whole country. The Wright amendment was designed to level the playing field so that SWA could not pick and chose the most profitable routes from American Airlines and go after those while leaving AA holding the bag on other less profitable routes. The Wright amendment was designed to keep SWA from cherry-picking routes from other companies servicing the whole country. Jim Wright was trying to protect American Airlines and I'm sure he was rewarded handsomely for doing so. :cool:

Looks to me like SW flies the whole country
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/routemap_dyn.html

And I dont think that AA is MANDATED to fly the other routes are they ??

Again - I dont see it .... SW has cheaper fares AND is more profitable AND flies the whoole country AND doesnt need help from protectionist legislators.... Just color me confused

In the end I dont like big brother holding his thumb over the little guy who is actually the only one making a go of it

EDIT - If you look at AA flight map and remove all the "one world" stuff that isnt thiers and the seasonal cities and the other cities that they service using other airlines the maps arent THAT different. They fly to a lot of little towns using the smaller american eagle flights which SW doesnt have smaller planes.

[Sixpipes]

Looks to me like SW flies the whole country


True, but that wasn't the case in 1979 when the amendment was passed. :cool:

Excerpt from SWA History

1979
Self-ticketing machines are introduced in 10 cities to make it even faster and more convenient for Customers to fly Southwest, and we begin service to New Orleans from Dallas - the first city outside of Texas to be served by Southwest. With more planes, more flights and more responsive service, Southwest becomes America's "Company Plane."

[98Cobra]

Tex, are you an AA lobbyist? :D

Seriously though, recently the exception was granted to allow flights to Mizzou, and you know what? AA's price dropped litterally overnight. They were saying on the radio that a walk-up price ticket dropped more than $400 dollars in preperation for having to compete with SWA on that route.

If the city imposes a curfew on flights, fine. Carriers will have much to consider before choosing Love over DFW - cost to lease the space, how much traffic the airport can handle, etc. I just dont see Love becoming some sort of international hub because suddenly we allow flights to go farther than one state.

As Doug said, SWA flys all over the country from other airports already, so the short haul/long haul argument is void, even if I agreed with the government telling a business where it should be able to fly, which I dont.

One other argument I have heard against opening up Love is that the competition will force AA to cut flights to other destinations. If these flights were at capacity, they wouldn't be cutting them, and if they aren't, well, I have a problem with paying more for a flight I do take so that another route can exist to somewhere I am not going. (In other words, I do not support flying planes around half full. I doubt the shareholders do either.)

[Sixpipes]

The fact is the Wright Amendment was passed to protect American Airlines interest at the DFW Airport and to help the metroplex develop the airport as a national business center. It has long outlived its original intent. It is also interesting to me that when Legend Airlines tried to start up at Love Field, American Airlines moved routes to Love Field in order to compete. When Legend went out of business, American pulled their flights out of Love Field. Their sole intent was to prevent another regional carrier from entering the marketplace and they succeeded. :cool:

[Beaudee]

The fact is the Wright Amendment was passed to protect American Airlines interest at the DFW Airport and to help the metroplex develop the airport as a national business center. It has long outlived its original intent. It is also interesting to me that when Legend Airlines tried to start up at Love Field, American Airlines moved routes to Love Field in order to compete. When Legend went out of business, American pulled their flights out of Love Field. Their sole intent was to prevent another regional carrier from entering the marketplace and they succeeded. :cool:
:bows Amen!

[98Cobra]

Saw this in the Dallas Observer...

http://www.dallasobserver.com/Issues/2005-12-15/news/news2.html

[Beaudee]

Saw this in the Dallas Observer...

http://www.dallasobserver.com/Issues/2005-12-15/news/news2.html
Yep they match fares till SWA are all sold out then they mysteriously tripple.I think AA has only three gates @ love term..We got the rest:D

[Beaudee]

Looks like A.A. is back @ it again.What is this B.S. about "Stop And Think".Its been mostly funded by A.A., 500,000.00 worth.:Bullshit They need to come in my backyard and see the air traffic from D.F.W..Will be interesting to see the outcome of all this.