Looks like Ford is cutting jobs to try to dig themselves out of their hole

[wesman]

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060123/D8FAHM300.html

--wes

[Silver_2000]

No matter what the unions think. The biggest portion of costs for 990 out of a thousand companies is Labor.

[wesman]

Looks like the transmission plant in Ohio is closing. Wonder what that means for our Factory Tech Friend Grag.....mabe he'll return to making Monster Crap boxes again.....oh joy.

--wes

[Silver_2000]

Looks like the transmission plant in Ohio is closing. Wonder what that means for our Factory Tech Friend Grag.....mabe he'll return to making Monster Crap boxes again.....oh joy.

--wes

He is gods trannyman ... Im sure they will find a spot for him...:evil

[03LightningRocks]

No matter what the unions think. The biggest portion of costs for 990 out of a thousand companies is Labor.

Yep...labor costs are killing them. It's not just the 30+ dollars an hour, it's all the other rediculous benefits these unskilled workers get paid.

[gbgary]

i don't think labor is as big a problem as insurance costs. insurance (health, workers comp, vehicle, etc.) is killing them (and every other business out there). they spend more on insurance than they do on steel. GM just got some consessions from the unions on the insurance thing.

[Silver_2000]

i don't think labor is as big a problem as insurance costs. insurance (health, workers comp, vehicle, etc.) is killing them (and every other business out there). they spend more on insurance than they do on steel. GM just got some consessions from the unions on the insurance thing.

Thats a benefit cost - which is a labor cost ....
Less people = less benefits = less $$

And less likley to see a next gen lightning

[Mark #2]

Most everything will be made in China. No OSHA, no unions, no insurance, no coda...no etc. no etc. no etc.

Some in Mexico, TVs specifically they are too heavy(costly) to ship.

[dboat]

I cant say that I disagree with anyone here. I have seen what the costs are to have a an old style "traditional" pension plan where one gets paid a % of their last X number of years average comp. These plans are draining the employers by the millions. IBM just froze their plan and it was healthy. Why? because you can not know what the real cost is going to be in the long haul.

I cant wait for Tex to post in here about how this is another way for the big company to rip off the little guy. When are these unions going to wake up and smell the coffee when it comes to being able to have job retention?

Dana

[gbgary]

Thats a benefit cost - which is a labor cost ....
Less people = less benefits = less $$

And less likley to see a next gen lightning

i know what you're saying. i was being more specific.

rocks, from what i understand you own your own a/c company. throw some numbers out there so people can get an idea of how bad it is. the company i work for has dropped workers comp, a large percentage of new-construction installs are subbed-out, and now the employee health care is almost all on the employees shoulders to bare.

[03LightningRocks]

i know what you're saying. i was being more specific.

rocks, from what i understand you own your own a/c company. throw some numbers out there so people can get an idea of how bad it is. the company i work for has dropped workers comp, a large percentage of new-construction installs are subbed-out, and now the employee health care is almost all on the employees shoulders to bare.


I will look at it in the morning. I will tell you that our "extras" that are above the straight hourly rate, come in at around 40% of the hourly rate. So a fellow making 20 bucks an hour....costs me an additional 8 bucks an hour.

The UAW has benefits that dwarf ours. They get up to 8 weeks a year paid vacation. 12 sick days. 12 Holidays. Overtime after 8 hours each day...that's not the same as after 40 hours. They have insurance that allows them to go to any Doctor they want and pay nothing. They have meds all paid for. These are just a few of the benifits I remember being told about by a guy we run FFW with. He has 30 years in with them and told us he was making 80K a year. We ask him what his job was...he pulled 3 rubber washers out of his pocket and said it was his job to watch a machine that holds those washers. He said that when he sees a washer is getting worn, he is suppose to call someone else to come change it. I asked him why he didn't just change it. He said it was a different union classification to do the washer...maintenace job I suppose.

He just retired with 80% of his pay(of which he contributed nothing)...I think that was the number he gave us.

Howard and I just set there in disbelief...but the guy wasn't bullshitting us.


Rocks

[03LightningRocks]

LMAO.............Has anyone done any Googling about this lay-off? I just did and I am stunned. These people go into a "job bank" where they get paid full salary and benefits untill there is a job opening. WTF...yeah...I am just worried to death about their well being. Ford is also offering to pay for up to 15K in tuition to any college they want to go to and also pay them half their yearly salary while attending college.

Only the sorriest, lazy Muthur Fockers would get into trouble with a plan like this.
That's not being layed off...that's getting a gift. Well, until they get done with college and find out what folks get paid when socialism isn't working for you.


Rocks

[Silver_2000]

i know what you're saying. i was being more specific.

rocks, from what i understand you own your own a/c company. throw some numbers out there so people can get an idea of how bad it is. the company i work for has dropped workers comp, a large percentage of new-construction installs are subbed-out, and now the employee health care is almost all on the employees shoulders to bare.

I dont think it means anything to drop workers comp ... Its not optional as far as I understand. If you get hurt in the job they are on the hook either way.

quick google results



Employers purchase or obtain workers´ compensation coverage to pay the medical and income losses incurred by employees who are injured on the job. But since workers´ compensation insurance premiums can be a significant expense for Texas employers, many businesses are tempted to go without insurance or to buy cheaper "alternative" products. Employers who have chosen not to purchase or obtain workers´ compensation coverage for their employees are often referred to as "nonsubscribers" to the Texas workers´ compensation system. Texas is the only state in which purchasing workers´ compensation insurance is truly optional for most private employers.
The Texas Workers´ Compensation Act limits an employer´s legal liability for job-related injuries if the employer has a workers´ compensation policy from a licensed insurance company, has been certified to self-insure by the Texas Workers´ Compensation Commission (TWCC), or is a member of a workers´ compensation self-insurance group approved by the Texas Department of Insurance (TDI). Only companies specifically licensed to sell workers´ compensation insurance in Texas may legally offer such insurance. They may sell only the standard policy adopted by the Commissioner of Insurance.
Employers without workers´ compensation coverage - including those with alternative coverage - may face high damage awards if an employee is injured and can prove in court that the employer was negligent in any way.

What that means is you get hurt in the job you call any attorney that advertises and they get you BIGGER money

[Silver_2000]

The layoof and plant closures are scheduled thru 2012 -

So all the tension and wringing of hands is about things that wont change for 6 years .... Has to be as a result of Union contracts - How would you like to be running a company - announce layoffs and plant closures in an attempt to reduce operating losses - and realize that because of issues like Ron described and the 2012 shedule you wont see real benefit for at LEAST 6 years...

[gbgary]

I dont think it means anything to drop workers comp ... Its not optional as far as I understand.

yeah it's optional. we're on an alternative-coverage and it saved the company 40k. that's a lot for a 30 employee company. comp insurance had been steadily going up for several years. what we're paying now is what we were paying 8 years ago. plus almost any doctor will see a worker where nearly all doctors were denying to treat people on workers comp. as far as health insurance goes, in one year our health insurance went from 45k to 89k.

[SILVER2000SVT]

This is my theory base on my own observations.

The auto industry is grossly inflated. The fundementals of business need to be tweeked when dealing with global companies. What I mean is that all the auto makers have been gearing up and fighting for every last piece of growth over the past couple of decades and they went past the point of global equilibrium sometime a few years ago. Most business models for small (non-global) business involve significant growth in sales, if the market is saturated your long term growth can only be at the rate the world economy is growing. The auto industry failed to realize this and continued to increase capacity, increase capacity some more, then some more again.

The auto industry has to change from a model of growth (typical business model) to a model of sustainment and be able to fluctuate with the world economy, good year and bad years.

You can't say you haven't seen this coming. Look how may years straight they have been shoving the new cars down our throat with all the deal and incentives they have been offering.

This restructing by Ford, and by GM not too long ago is just the correction to the problem they forced upon themselves. I won't be suprised at all if you see this by other automakers as well. Athough it is a little less likely because the other companies haven't backed themselves into a corner nearly as far as Ford and GM.

I think it is commendable that Ford planned this out until the year 2012. As bad as this is for the workers, the restructuring is something that has to be done, this at least gives employees a better chance by doing it a little at a time and not kicking everybody out all at once.

[Silver_2000]

Im sure I ll get corrected..but it seems to me that the huge severance packages and other after termination compensation that the unions negotiated actually works against them..

Since laying off one worker nets such a SMALL return they end up having to lay off a number of people to get the same return. In effect shooting the union in the foot. Of course this assumes that the employee actually wanted to work.

Doug

[wesman]

Looks like Chrysler is about to make some cuts as well, they're going from Managers up tho.......getting to the meat of the problem

http://money.excite.com/ht/nw/bus/20060124/hle_bus-l24264700.html

--wes

[Tex Arcana]

I think Jason is right on this one, and by extension his statements can be applied to ALL corporations and industries: you can't operate on the assumption of 20% growth per year (or even 10 or 5%), it's just not sustainable--and Enron and WorldCom proved this can't be done without cooking the books. The 70's and to a lesser extent the 80's have the executriods thinking they can go into a company, do a slash and burn, get the big bonus, and then move on before the company goes into collapse. Of course, stockholder expectations do'nt help the problem, either--guess it's the result of the "instant-gratification" era we live in. :(

I think what kills me is the attitudes: the unions are primarily padding their own backsides (hm, just like high-level executives??), and justifying their own existences, but like was said earlier, are literally putting themselves out of business. But the atitudes of the people who're calling union workers "lazy" are what get me: most of them aren't lazy at all, and aren't really "unskilled" in the slightest, it's just a bad perception created by the few who're part of the "pork-barrelling". I think most union workers just want to have a decent job, with some job security, and not have to worry that they're gonna lose their jobs next week because some executroid decides to pad his numbers and get the bonus.

I think what gets lost in all the noise is the big picture: the more jobs that go overseas, the fewer jobs that are left, which just drives the unemployment rate thru the roof. Next thing you know, all that stuff these companies send offshore, don't get sold here because no one can afford them anymore, meaning EVERYONE suffers. Not everyone can be "management": that damn layer is too large as it is--too many chiefs, not enough indians--and the management executroids are scrambling to justify their existence, over and above the existence of the very people that support them in the first place.

Fact is, ANY company's biggest asset is it's PEOPLE, and 'til American coproations remember this, they'll keep gutting themselves 'til they have nothing left but a bunch of suits and a few managers, and no one else to do the real work. And the rest of us will be working for McDonald's--at least, 'til the completely automate the stores and eliminate EVERY LIVE BODY. :hammer: Hm.. societal stratification, anyone?? A very few hyper-rich, living atop the teeming, scrabbling, dying masses, with almost no middle class whatsoever? Might as well throw technology out the window, and go back to the Dark Ages.

[dboat]

Tex, come on, even this is a bit over the top.. it isnt that bad.. I have worked in all of these environments.. there is some truth in what you posted, but it is over the top..
but I do appreciate your point of view.
we should have a long talk someday..

Dana


I think Jason is right on this one, and by extension his statements can be applied to ALL corporations and industries: you can't operate on the assumption of 20% growth per year (or even 10 or 5%), it's just not sustainable--and Enron and WorldCom proved this can't be done without cooking the books. The 70's and to a lesser extent the 80's have the executriods thinking they can go into a company, do a slash and burn, get the big bonus, and then move on before the company goes into collapse. Of course, stockholder expectations do'nt help the problem, either--guess it's the result of the "instant-gratification" era we live in. :(

I think what kills me is the attitudes: the unions are primarily padding their own backsides (hm, just like high-level executives??), and justifying their own existences, but like was said earlier, are literally putting themselves out of business. But the atitudes of the people who're calling union workers "lazy" are what get me: most of them aren't lazy at all, and aren't really "unskilled" in the slightest, it's just a bad perception created by the few who're part of the "pork-barrelling". I think most union workers just want to have a decent job, with some job security, and not have to worry that they're gonna lose their jobs next week because some executroid decides to pad his numbers and get the bonus.

I think what gets lost in all the noise is the big picture: the more jobs that go overseas, the fewer jobs that are left, which just drives the unemployment rate thru the roof. Next thing you know, all that stuff these companies send offshore, don't get sold here because no one can afford them anymore, meaning EVERYONE suffers. Not everyone can be "management": that damn layer is too large as it is--too many chiefs, not enough indians--and the management executroids are scrambling to justify their existence, over and above the existence of the very people that support them in the first place.

Fact is, ANY company's biggest asset is it's PEOPLE, and 'til American coproations remember this, they'll keep gutting themselves 'til they have nothing left but a bunch of suits and a few managers, and no one else to do the real work. And the rest of us will be working for McDonald's--at least, 'til the completely automate the stores and eliminate EVERY LIVE BODY. :hammer: Hm.. societal stratification, anyone?? A very few hyper-rich, living atop the teeming, scrabbling, dying masses, with almost no middle class whatsoever? Might as well throw technology out the window, and go back to the Dark Ages.

[Tex Arcana]

Tex, come on, even this is a bit over the top.. it isnt that bad.. I have worked in all of these environments.. there is some truth in what you posted, but it is over the top..
but I do appreciate your point of view.
we should have a long talk someday..

Dana

Agreed. Maybe it is a bit over the top, but with a long enough view and a few more alarming events down the road, it *could* happen. I mean, no one had any idea that Hitler would end up where he was doing the things he did, now did they? :(

I do agree that Ford's methods are better than most, in that they're phasing out jobs over time; and with the golden parachutes most employees will have, they'll stand a decent chance of finding replacement work. But you can't tell me that the present methods of doing business are sustainable at all.

[dboat]

Agreed. Maybe it is a bit over the top, but with a long enough view and a few more alarming events down the road, it *could* happen. I mean, no one had any idea that Hitler would end up where he was doing the things he did, now did they? :(

I do agree that Ford's methods are better than most, in that they're phasing out jobs over time; and with the golden parachutes most employees will have, they'll stand a decent chance of finding replacement work. But you can't tell me that the present methods of doing business are sustainable at all.

What Ford is offering their folks is WAY WAY more than generous..

If what you mean by present methods includes the strategies, tactics and methods of the Union, I agree. I will say that the company(s) has to really review what the real growth is in the industry, given that cars are made better and last longer than a decade or two ago. What they will and should focus on is what the buyer(s) want and then focus on quality, customer service and price.
For example, we have just bought our second Suzuki suv. I would never EVER have thought that I would EVER own a Suzuki vehicle, EVER. But when we drove a 2001 XL-7 my wife decided to get it over a Lexus RX-300 (price) and the Mitsu Montero Sport (price and perceived quality). We had also test driven and rented a Ford Escape. The purchase part was easy and the sales folks were very reasonable and negotiations went quickly and smoothly. The car had one recall, but never required one trip to the dealer for anything.. So when I thought about another vehicle, they came to the top of my list..the experience was about the same just a month or two ago when we traded it in on a new one.
Thats how one grows their business faster than the market is growing.. is a 15% increase in return possible over the long haul, yes, but you have to have the right plan and "yes" the right team of people to pull it off.
Dana

[Tex Arcana]

What Ford is offering their folks is WAY WAY more than generous..

If what you mean by present methods includes the strategies, tactics and methods of the Union, I agree. I will say that the company(s) has to really review what the real growth is in the industry, given that cars are made better and last longer than a decade or two ago. What they will and should focus on is what the buyer(s) want and then focus on quality, customer service and price.
For example, we have just bought our second Suzuki suv. I would never EVER have thought that I would EVER own a Suzuki vehicle, EVER. But when we drove a 2001 XL-7 my wife decided to get it over a Lexus RX-300 (price) and the Mitsu Montero Sport (price and perceived quality). We had also test driven and rented a Ford Escape. The purchase part was easy and the sales folks were very reasonable and negotiations went quickly and smoothly. The car had one recall, but never required one trip to the dealer for anything.. So when I thought about another vehicle, they came to the top of my list..the experience was about the same just a month or two ago when we traded it in on a new one.
Thats how one grows their business faster than the market is growing.. is a 15% increase in return possible over the long haul, yes, but you have to have the right plan and "yes" the right team of people to pull it off.
Dana


More than just the unions, corporations in general have to revise everything.

Japanese-built vehicles are usually pretty good, overall; the Korean makers are bridging the gaps as well; however, my fear is the introduction of Chinese-built cars: low-quality, and so low-priced that they'll severely undercut EVERYONE (can you see WalMart selling cars?? Might happen if they're built in China), not to mention the questionable labor practices they operate under. :rolleyes:

I still think 15% is unrealistic in the long run: too much fluctuation in everything to make that sustainable. Over 5-10 years, maybe; but not in a year. Most American corporations don't look beyond a year or two anymore, despite what they say--most are focused on making a fast buck, which kills the long-term.

[Mark #2]

I go to China often and there is nothing questionable about their labor practices. They provide housing right next to the factories and treat their workers very well, the pay scale is just very different.

[wesman]

I go to China often and there is nothing questionable about their labor practices. They provide housing right next to the factories and treat their workers very well, the pay scale is just very different.

Indeed....we just got back from Hong Kong and Zhongshan visiting where the In-Laws factory is actually built. He provides housing, meals, recreation, medical etc etc to all of the workers. Here's a few pics of the barracks, sitting area with ponds, pagodas etc . They have TV rooms, rec rooms, libraries all sorts of things. It was much nicer than when I was in the military and lived in barracks etc.


--wes

[Tex Arcana]

Indeed....we just got back from Hong Kong and Zhongshan visiting where the In-Laws factory is actually built. He provides housing, meals, recreation, medical etc etc to all of the workers. Here's a few pics of the barracks, sitting area with ponds, pagodas etc . They have TV rooms, rec rooms, libraries all sorts of things. It was much nicer than when I was in the military and lived in barracks etc.


--wes


I go to China often and there is nothing questionable about their labor practices. They provide housing right next to the factories and treat their workers very well, the pay scale is just very different.


You both forget that China is still allegedly a "Communist" country (complete misnomer, since what they practice isn't even close to being "communistic"), and that they only showed you what THEY WANTED you to see. The areas where you are NOT allowed to go contain a much different image, which ranges from human rights violations to massive pollution. They really couldn't care less about America and Americans, except as a source of income and a potential outlet for their massive population pressures, which despite highly restrictive birth laws, is growing like a viral infection.

[Mark #2]

You both forget that China is still allegedly a "Communist" country (complete misnomer, since what they practice isn't even close to being "communistic"), and that they only showed you what THEY WANTED you to see. The areas where you are NOT allowed to go contain a much different image, which ranges from human rights violations to massive pollution. They really couldn't care less about America and Americans, except as a source of income and a potential outlet for their massive population pressures, which despite highly restrictive birth laws, is growing like a viral infection.

I have seen most of it, not all for sure, but the good, the bad, and the ugly. One town I stayed in was so polluted that the sun was not visable, grey all the time, and yes there are open sewers, and yes there is bird flu, and yes there are human rights violations(just read the local China news published in Richardson), but the company's treat the workers well.

Mark