Stop light Cameras

[Mark #2]

Just FYI, not that any of us would break any traffic laws.

Red-light runners may be feeling blue today.

FAQ: Plano's red-light camera program explained
Plano and Richardson are set to activate newly installed red-light cameras today, beginning a one-month warning period before $75 civil fines kick in March 1.

Cameras at four intersections in Plano and two in Richardson will start snapping the license plates of offending vehicles, and violations will be sent to the registered owners.

Plano's cameras are at the following locations: Custer Road and Spring Creek Parkway; 15th Street and Independence Parkway; Park Boulevard and Ventura Drive; and Dallas Parkway and Legacy Drive.

Traffic Lt. Jeff Wise has said the department hopes the new system will contribute to a "halo effect" in which drivers, unsure of the cameras' locations, become more cautious at all intersections.

Richardson is launching its program at two intersections: Plano and Arapaho roads, and Centennial Boulevard and Greenville Avenue. In a few months, another pair of cameras will be installed at Coit and Campbell roads.

"As the program progresses, we'll evaluate other intersections," said Sgt. Kevin Perlich, a spokesman for the Richardson Police Department

Frisco also is installing red-light cameras and plans to unveil them in late February. Dallas, whose City Council approved the cameras earlier this month, aims to have them in place by August.

In Garland, which has had the cameras for more than two years, police say red-light violations have plunged by 21 percent.

Plano council member Sally Magnuson, who witnessed a red-light collision last week while driving in McKinney, said most residents she's heard from support the cameras.

And to those concerned about the cameras infringing on their privacy, Ms. Magnuson has some advice: "If you don't run the red light, nobody will take any pictures."

The one Centennial Boulevard and Greenville Avenue, I applaud, this is where I almost bought it on my street bike on the way to work, if had I pulled out on the green I would have been toast with a red light runner.
Just caught her out of my Peripheral vision and didn't go, this was just after surviving big crash event, yes I was still riding.
Figured I shouldn't push it any more, sold the street bike after that day.

[03LightningRocks]

I am not usually a big proponent of big brother tactics, but I am in favor of this one. This red light sh!t has gotten out of hand. Green used to mean go...now it means procede with extreme caution. Yellow seems to mean , stomp on the gas.

I have witnessed a few intersection collisions caused by a$$hats that think they are on the way to an appointment with the President...fock em...give them tickets until it hurts.

The only downside to this is that there are not enough cameras to put them on every intersection in town.

Now we just need some cameras for speed control on Legacy. Focktards seem to think the speed limit is 65. I have a new game I like to play with them....pull out and slow down to 30....then I drive up beside them and throw empty beer bottles at their car.


Rocks:cool:

[Silver_2000]

The only issue I have with it is that its ALL ABOUT THE REVENUE

Its been proven that the 3rd party that takes the MAJORITY of the $$ is ONLY interested in the $$$

I long ago got in the habit of double checking intersections if there arent people stacked up at the light.

Doug

[BC Lightning]

I'm opposed to this like I am ticketing of adults for seatbelts. I wonder what else they are going to pass to control us even more

[03LightningRocks]

I'm opposed to this like I am ticketing of adults for seatbelts. I wonder what else they are going to pass to control us even more


If you think about it Michael, the two laws work in unison. By requiring you to wear a seat belt, it protects me from getting killed by your lifeless limp body shooting from your car through my side window and into me, when you T-Bone me as you drive through the red light.



Seriously though.....so with your line of thinking, I am wondering if you believe other crimes should not be filmed for prosecution. Like for instance the ones in Banks, Convenience stores and parking lots. These are all public places. I can see your issue if they where coming into your private space. But out on the highway is not your private space. Does it make it different if they put a 55K a year cop at each and every intersection to do the same thing?

I also don't know that seat belts are a true analogy to running stop lights. Not wearing a seat belt can get you killed...running red lights can cause you to kill someone else.

So are you saying that you have some kind of inherant right to run stop lights...just as long as you don't get caught. That is kind of like getting caught speeding and thinking it's not fair that the cop was hiding when he caught you.

Rocks:confused:

[BC Lightning]

If you think about it Michael, the two laws work in unison. By requiring you to wear a seat belt, it protects me from getting killed by your lifeless limp body shooting from your car through my side window and into me, when you T-Bone me as you drive through the red light.



Seriously though.....so with your line of thinking, I am wondering if you believe other crimes should not be filmed for prosecution. Like for instance the ones in Banks, Convenience stores and parking lots. These are all public places. I can see your issue if they where coming into your private space. But out on the highway is not your private space. Does it make it different if they put a 55K a year cop at each and every intersection to do the same thing?

I also don't know that seat belts are a true analogy to running stop lights. Not wearing a seat belt can get you killed...running red lights can cause you to kill someone else.

So are you saying that you have some kind of inherant right to run stop lights...just as long as you don't get caught. That is kind of like getting caught speeding and thinking it's not fair that the cop was hiding when he caught you.

Rocks:confused: No its not a true analogy, an adult can make a decision on what the consequences of not wearing the sealt belt, be it death or harm, while a child can't make that decision truly understanding the consequences

Now for the cameras at stop lights, that is totally different than in banks, atm, etc. They will be using these to charge people with a minor "crime". I believe that the cameras should be used as evidence. If you run the red light, no ticket (unless a police officer is present), however if you are involved in a wreck the cameras can be used as evidence, like in a bank if it is being robbed. But they shouldn't be used to issue tickets.

Next thing they will be putting radar at stop lights to see what speed you are going through the intersection.

[98Cobra]

Red light cameras are wrong, period.

Red light cameras cant search a car for drugs if they have a suspicion the driver is under the influence.

Red light cameras dont put points on your license. Its a civil matter - all about the Benjamins.

Red light cameras will not stop a drunk driver. They will give them a ticket a couple weeks later though.

Red light cameras revenue is shared with a private company. I am sure this promotes accurate timing of the light cycle, as well as fair sensor placement.

Red light cameras may solve(MAY) some kinds of accidents, like t-boning, but how many new accidents are created by people standing on the brakes to avoid a ticket on something they could have/should have made anyway?

Say no to red light cameras. :)

[jeff56]

No its not a true analogy, an adult can make a decision on what the consequences of not wearing the sealt belt, be it death or harm, while a child can't make that decision truly understanding the consequences



All well and good if you want to risk your neck by not wearing a seatbelt, however, it doesn't just affect you. When you smash your face and incur brain damage, my insurance company has to pay for your medical bills, which eventually drive up my rates, affecting my pocketbook.

When you roll your ride and get ejected becaue you are not wearing a seatbelt causing your vehicle to roll over you and smash your lifeless body upon the asphalt, it effects others too. Your family would be of first concern, who have to deal with this tragedy. Police and fire personnel risk their lives and others' lives responding code to the scene to try to save you. Once there and they find you dead, they have to shut down the roadway to conduct a fatality investigation. This in turn causes massive traffic congestion affecting thousands of people. Traffic congestion also contributes much more to pollution, which I then must breathe in. So undoubtedly, your decision to not wear your seatbelt will eventually cause me to get lung cancer.

Seriously, I used to feel the same way you do, however, I now understand that it is much more complicated than simply deciding you personally are comfortable with the risk to yourself.

[Silver_2000]

All well and good if you want to risk your neck by not wearing a seatbelt, however, it doesn't just affect you. When you smash your face and incur brain damage, my insurance company has to pay for your medical bills, which eventually drive up my rates, affecting my pocketbook.

When you roll your ride and get ejected becaue you are not wearing a seatbelt causing your vehicle to roll over you and smash your lifeless body upon the asphalt, it effects others too. Your family would be of first concern, who have to deal with this tragedy. Police and fire personnel risk their lives and others' lives responding code to the scene to try to save you. Once there and they find you dead, they have to shut down the roadway to conduct a fatality investigation. This in turn causes massive traffic congestion affecting thousands of people. Traffic congestion also contributes much more to pollution, which I then must breathe in. So undoubtedly, your decision to not wear your seatbelt will eventually cause me to get lung cancer.

Seriously, I used to feel the same way you do, however, I now understand that it is much more complicated than simply deciding you personally are comfortable with the risk to yourself.

Well Said - I always wondered about the children on F150 online who wanted to disable the seatbelt alarm. Such a BAD idea.

[98Cobra]

All well and good if you want to risk your neck by not wearing a seatbelt, however, it doesn't just affect you. When you smash your face and incur brain damage, my insurance company has to pay for your medical bills, which eventually drive up my rates, affecting my pocketbook.

When you roll your ride and get ejected becaue you are not wearing a seatbelt causing your vehicle to roll over you and smash your lifeless body upon the asphalt, it effects others too. Your family would be of first concern, who have to deal with this tragedy. Police and fire personnel risk their lives and others' lives responding code to the scene to try to save you. Once there and they find you dead, they have to shut down the roadway to conduct a fatality investigation. This in turn causes massive traffic congestion affecting thousands of people. Traffic congestion also contributes much more to pollution, which I then must breathe in. So undoubtedly, your decision to not wear your seatbelt will eventually cause me to get lung cancer.

Seriously, I used to feel the same way you do, however, I now understand that it is much more complicated than simply deciding you personally are comfortable with the risk to yourself.

I would agree with you, but that would mean banning motorcycles. They dont have seatbelts, and though not as common, accidents involving a motorcycle rider are fatal far more often then in cars.

[StormShadow]

I still get pissed when I see a cop hiding shooting radar. :flaming:

[microsuck]

I like them. You know why? Because I dont run red lights. Dosent cost me a dime.

[98Cobra]

I like them. You know why? Because I dont run red lights. Dosent cost me a dime.

Yea, you stick to high speed pursuits, right? :D

It does cost you - in ways you cant even fathom.

[microsuck]

Oh, another funny guy:D .

Actually, Im curious now. Please explain to me, how red light cameras costs me if I dont run a red light. I thought about it for a while, and cant think of a single one.:confused:

[03LightningRocks]

Andrew is right.....these cameras don't cost me squawt....just so I don't run a light. Now on the other hand, if we have to place a cop at every intersection to keep assclowns from buzzing through lights, that cost the sh!t out of me in the way of tax dollars.


This is bullshit folks. You want to break the focking law and you then want to come off like there is some sort of fair chase requirement. Screw that sh!t....I don't care what a cop has to do to catch someone breaking the law...more power to them. If you can't do the time.....don't do the crime....;) .

Rocks

[98Cobra]

You guys are assuming that EVERY ticket that is mailed out is to a guilty party. Its been well documented that even though its an electronic system and should be fool-proof, when the human element kicks in, there are problems.

Problems in San Diego:

http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/Content?oid=oid%3A32471

Long story, but awesome:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/078ftoqz.asp

Same city, newer article, showing a RISE in accidents at camera locations:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/03/AR2005100301844.html

Closer to home, this blogger discusses the recent changes in Texas that allowed red light cameras in, which have always been extremely unpopular in the Legislature. (Basically, a lobbyist snuck it into a large transportation bill, in the same way a national ID card law was snuck into a federal bill authorizing more pay for soldiers fighting and dieing in Iraq.)

http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2006/01/texas-ag-should-say-no-to-red-light.html

There are many many other datapoints out there - for instance, how repeated studies have shown that a longer yellow of just 1.5 seconds can reduce crashes at intersections.

Andrew, here is a scenario on how you can be paying and not even know it:

Data is kept on which intersections have cameras, and how often they catch violators. If your insurance company wished, they could raise your rates based on how often they "think" you might be likely to run a red light near your house based on that data. They wont know for sure, of course, since violations are civil and not criminal and never appear on your record. But that doesnt matter - they have the excuse they need to stick it to you. If you think along the lines of what happens to that data, there are endless possibilities.

[microsuck]

It does peak my interest. But after reading those three articles (whew, that was long), I really didnt see anything proving that the red light cameras are malfunctioning. It seemed to be more a case of drivers with bad judgment who were upset about getting caught.

Since the cameras shoot you from behind, and are pointed into the intersection, if you dont run the light, you are never even in its field of view. And to date, every red light camera I have ever seen has been a still camera. Snapping photos of the intersection 0-3 seconds after it has turned red. Notice the flash going off at night next time you see someone run a red light in front of one. Once again, if you arent in the intersection, you arent on film. Maybe I'm missed something.

My rule of thumb, is I ALWAYS stop on yellow, UNLESS my vehicle isnt capable of stopping in time, safely. The yellow light duration is determined by the speed limit of the road. Higher speeds need longer yellows. The problem is when people exceed the speed limit so greatly that the yellow isnt long enough for them to make it, and they are going to fast to safely stop. So they run it, and enter on a red.

I dont know, those are just my thoughts on the issue. But I can see how it can go both ways. I DO however, think it will eliminate alot of stupid and careless driving that i see every day. People in downtown dallas dont slow down unless the light is already red. "Red is the new yellow" to some people. :hammer:

[03LightningRocks]

Wow.....sh!t Garett........you have me changing my mind about the cameras. That is some real live BS. I hadn't thought about the chance of the cameras being wrong.


Rocks

[Tex Arcana]

Other points against cameras:

1) If someone else is driving YOUR car, YOU get the ticket; and we know where that particular ball of **** rolls (straight into your pocket and to your insuranc company, eventually, even if it's not now, it will happen).

2) That little, minor detail, that is the basis for our way of life: "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY" :hammer: This presumes guilt, and is highly fallible. The law is predicated on a police officer witnessing the infraction and enforcing the law via a citation; the camera system bypases that and puts you right into the guilty column.

Just goes to prove the true basis of all things is money, period: the more you have, the more you can buy yourself out of. :bs

[98Cobra]

One of the points *I* hadnt considered before that was in the Austin blog link, was 14th Amendment considerations.

If I run a red light, the penalty should be the same whether witnessed by an officer or by a camera. You shouldnt have to pay 2X or more because I cop saw you do it.

[gagspa]

I hate the way that everyone around here runs lights, but I don't think that cameras will help. Often once a camera has been put up the yellow light is shortened. This will increase the number of accidents, not decrease it. Also, people that know there are cameras will slam on thier brakes when they should/could have gone through on a yellow and will cause other wrecks.

Something needs to be done about redlight runners (especially in Arlington) but I don't know that cameras are it.

[microsuck]

I remember reading a while back, that someone got a ticket for running a red light in the mail, and they mailed him a picture of his car. So he mailed them a picture of a check to pay his citation. :D

[Lyfisin]

I remember reading a while back, that someone got a ticket for running a red light in the mail, and they mailed him a picture of his car. So he mailed them a picture of a check to pay his citation. :D

I heard a comedian once with a line like that. He ended up by saying they sent him back a picture of his warrant. :D

[Tex Arcana]

I hate the way that everyone around here runs lights, but I don't think that cameras will help. Often once a camera has been put up the yellow light is shortened. This will increase the number of accidents, not decrease it. Also, people that know there are cameras will slam on thier brakes when they should/could have gone through on a yellow and will cause other wrecks.

Something needs to be done about redlight runners (especially in Arlington) but I don't know that cameras are it.

:rll: talk about stacking the deck... not only should the be drug thru a field of broken glass for that, but all tickets should be forgiven until the lengthen the light by at least double what it was BEFOR they shortened it. :hammer:

[98Cobra]

Ahh, yes. Our friends in traffic enforcement are at it again:

"Canadian authorities have filed bribery charges against Dallas-based Affiliated Computer Services, the same company Dallas city officials hired in July to overhaul the city's parking meter and violation-collection operation systems."

"Officials in Winnipeg, Manitoba, are reviewing their own red-light camera contract with ACS. A city audit released this week found that profits from the program have fallen short every year and will result in a revenue loss of $50 million over the course of the city's contract, according to the Winnipeg Free Press."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-parking_25met.ART.North.Edition2.22d74ee3.html

[Tex Arcana]

Ahh, yes. Our friends in traffic enforcement are at it again:

"Canadian authorities have filed bribery charges against Dallas-based Affiliated Computer Services, the same company Dallas city officials hired in July to overhaul the city's parking meter and violation-collection operation systems."

"Officials in Winnipeg, Manitoba, are reviewing their own red-light camera contract with ACS. A city audit released this week found that profits from the program have fallen short every year and will result in a revenue loss of $50 million over the course of the city's contract, according to the Winnipeg Free Press."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-parking_25met.ART.North.Edition2.22d74ee3.html
:rll: Just goes to show you that the law is for sale to the highest bidder.

[TP Derrick D]

When I was stationed in Germany they had them there and that was 20 years ago. They work, believe me they do. Problem is this country is so bassackard & wishy washy that people fight anything that is new to THEM.
We want something done, but don't want the change to our little snuddy lives.Its like you don't want the cops around and then when you need one its like "where's a cop when you need one"? I'm suprised the US is so far behind the Euro countries when it comes to transpotation issues. Seat belt law, ultra hi-speed driving, interstate system & traffic enforcement. But we're catching up, no wait that was 20 years ago and we just now getting to that 1980's level so I'm sure they are even more advanced now. Don't run the light don't get your mug shot taken.

[98Cobra]

When I was stationed in Germany they had them there and that was 20 years ago. They work, believe me they do. Problem is this country is so bassackard & wishy washy that people fight anything that is new to THEM.
We want something done, but don't want the change to our little snuddy lives.Its like you don't want the cops around and then when you need one its like "where's a cop when you need one"? I'm suprised the US is so far behind the Euro countries when it comes to transpotation issues. Seat belt law, ultra hi-speed driving, interstate system & traffic enforcement. But we're catching up, no wait that was 20 years ago and we just now getting to that 1980's level so I'm sure they are even more advanced now. Don't run the light don't get your mug shot taken.

Did you read any of the rest of this thread, Derrick? No one is advocating running red lights. But the systems that local governments are pursuing are rife with inaccuracy, easily modified to increase the "payout", and there isnt anything you can really do to fight the ticket without a lot of cost out of pocket to you.

And when you say Europe, you need to specify which countries. Germany, for instance is down to 30% of its famed Autobahns being unrestricted speed, UK is a mess like here, France is nice from what I read, but Spain is only now coming up to par since joining the EU. Admittedly this is all from what I have read, but it cant be far off...