Quick Exhaust Q

[AFSVT01]

This is for those who have catless midpipes. does anyone ever give you a hard time for not having cats? i want to go catless, but i dont want to have to change back any time soon for getting into trouble. thanks.

-matt

[tiffo60]

i have driven with out cats on every vehicle i have owned since i was 16, i might be a redneck but i like em loud, never once have had any problems other than inspection which are easy to come by, i have had a cop say your vehichle brings attention to yourself when you gas it but not ask why, and there arent many cops who are going to crawl on the ground to see if you have a cat or not, so i wouldnt sweat it

[03BCLIGHTNING]

i havnt had any problems yet if you mean with the policia!! I have Magnaflows, its loud but sounds good! If you like the loudness then go for it but on the highway it might get alittle disturbing cruising at 70!:d :tu:

[AFSVT01]

is there any problem with backpressure going catless or are these trucks okay with that

[tiffo60]

mine ran the same with out em as it did with them, track times were the same anyway

[03BCLIGHTNING]

well when i got mine i was running 8.80's then i when i got Magnaflows i ran an 8.7x maybe just the track but i didnt feel too much difference!

[Silver_2000]

back in the day there was a lot of discussion and testing on trucks with and with out cats - the results were that most people lost torque when the removed the cats

My personal opinion is its ignorant to intentionally remove the cats. It helps screw up the environment and it cost you torque and its louder than crap - whats the upside ? Oh and its illegal as hell

Doug

[Tex Arcana]

What about gutted cats? Can we get away with that? :confused:

[tiffo60]

you can get away with with them either way, the only thing you can get around is passing the emissions strait up, but as far as legality you will never be bothered, just dont run wide open thru residential areas and you will be fine

[BC Lightning]

Backpressure is a myth. People have said that you will lose hp/trq, but it's generally "butt dyno" where it "feels" like youve lost power

As far as passing inspection if you don't have O2 emulators or a hand held tuner that clears the trouble codes then it won't pass the inspection. The only other option is to have the inspection place plug their computer to another car and run the tests. Besides if you do get caught by the police without cats it's a $10,000 dollar fine. I ran my 2002 Lightning without cats, O2 emulators and 2 flowmaster mufflers and it was LOUD. Without dynamat it got to be real annoying real quick. I have run long tube headers, hiflow cats, and JDM's silver bullet exhaust for 20,000 iles now, and it is plenty loud.

[Beaudee]

The Magnaflow cats are plenty loud and perform nicely.Terry just put headers and cats on my truck.One day later i got pulled over without even speeding,they do bring attention to you.As far as back pressure,it does make a difference.An X-pipe will add performance.

[Tex Arcana]

So gutting the cats will throw a code? Kinda makes it a bad idea.

An X-pipe or H-pipe will actually cut the sound a bit, mellows it out some. But BC is right, backpressure is a myth, the way to power is flow, period.

[WA 2 FST]

So gutting the cats will throw a code? Kinda makes it a bad idea.

An X-pipe or H-pipe will actually cut the sound a bit, mellows it out some. But BC is right, backpressure is a myth, the way to power is flow, period.

Yes, running no functioning cats will throw a code. All OBD-II vehicles ('96+ model years) have a set of O2 sensors mounted behind the cats. They function to monitor the catalyts efficiency. If they are not working (due to failure or removal), then you will get a code. There is some debate on whether or not this will affect performance, but at the very least you will fail an inspection. And clearing the codes just before you go in for the test won't work. The test facility diagnostic machines can tell if the PCM has been cleared, so you have to put some miles/run time on it before you can get the car tested.

You can have someone pull a trick like BC suggests, but the fine is huge if you're caught. Personally, I have chosen to refrain from this tactic. O2 simulators will work as well.

[gagspa]

Dallas Mustang (and several other places) make MIL Eliminators. They plug into your rear O2 sensors. They then tell the computer that the sensors are reading correctly. This way your car does not throw a code and should not affect performance. I have run MILs on my Mustang and passed inspection without cats 3 times. You can find plug in MILs for about $60 or splice in ones for about $30.

[BC Lightning]

this is where I got mine, took about 2-3 days

http://www.rpmoutlet.com/gmo2s.htm

[99WhiteBeast]

and it is plenty loud.

I can hear you coming two blocks away-that's too damn loud in my book-I can only imagine what its like on the highway cruising at 80

[wesman]

I had free flow cats, but they ended up exiting the exhaust. I'm not sure if it was race fuel or what, but the bricks are gone. So, essentially I have gutted cats with the free flow look :)

It is indeed loud....but I like it like that.

--wes

[wesman]

Yes, running no functioning cats will throw a code. All OBD-II vehicles ('96+ model years) have a set of O2 sensors mounted behind the cats. They function to monitor the catalyts efficiency. If they are not working (due to failure or removal), then you will get a code. There is some debate on whether or not this will affect performance, but at the very least you will fail an inspection. And clearing the codes just before you go in for the test won't work. The test facility diagnostic machines can tell if the PCM has been cleared, so you have to put some miles/run time on it before you can get the car tested.

You can have someone pull a trick like BC suggests, but the fine is huge if you're caught. Personally, I have chosen to refrain from this tactic. O2 simulators will work as well.

Well, in my case it doesn't throw a code, nor did it fail emmisions. I had the truck inspected last week and it passed with flying colors. Terry can attest that I definitely don't have the catalyst bricks in there anymore. As far as I know I'm still running the factory o2's.

--wes

[WA 2 FST]

Then even without cats, you're burning clean (enough) emissions... plain and simple.

[Tex Arcana]

Food for thought... I do know I'm running way richer than I was before the tune, so chances are if I do end up gutting them I'll have to restore the old code before inspection... or can the machine catch that?

I like the sound, and I don't, but chances are I'll be Dynamatting anyway, so that will be a moot point. :tu:

[Tex Arcana]

I can hear you coming two blocks away-that's too damn loud in my book-I can only imagine what its like on the highway cruising at 80
Doesn't that make you too old??? :d

[Beaudee]

So gutting the cats will throw a code? Kinda makes it a bad idea.

An X-pipe or H-pipe will actually cut the sound a bit, mellows it out some. But BC is right, backpressure is a myth, the way to power is flow, period.
I have had exhaust on my truck with X-pipe and without.It performed better with the X-pipe.If they didn't run better with an X-pipe they wouldn't make em!I'm not trying to be a wise guy,but its my opinion.Maybe it doesnt make as much difference with heavy mods..Check out the dyno on this system. http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/shopexd.asp?zone=mainall&id=70This is the system i have and it has an internal X-pipe.Truck ran better with this than a true dual system.Quite noticable!!The tips dont line up for chit though!!

[wesman]

Then even without cats, you're burning clean (enough) emissions... plain and simple.

Must be the KB and 18psi :tu:

--wes

[Tex Arcana]

I have had exhaust on my truck with X-pipe and without.It performed better with the X-pipe.If they didn't run better with an X-pipe they wouldn't make em!I'm not trying to be a wise guy,but its my opinion.Maybe it doesnt make as much difference with heavy mods..Check out the dyno on this system. http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/shopexd.asp?zone=mainall&id=70This is the system i have and it has an internal X-pipe.Truck ran better with this than a true dual system.Quite noticable!!The tips dont line up for chit though!!

I think you missed my point: I was saying the SOUND mellows out with a crossover, NOT the power. Crossovers allow the exhaust pulses to "line up" better, promoting more exhaust flow and better cylinder scavenging. Hence why the "backpressure" myth is just a myth, if there's any sort of restriction in the exhaust, it'll prevent the complete evacuation of exhaust gases in the cylinder, meaning you can't get as much air/fuel into the cylinder, thereby reducing the power.

Get it?? :tu:

[Beaudee]

I think you missed my point: I was saying the SOUND mellows out with a crossover, NOT the power. Crossovers allow the exhaust pulses to "line up" better, promoting more exhaust flow and better cylinder scavenging. Hence why the "backpressure" myth is just a myth, if there's any sort of restriction in the exhaust, it'll prevent the complete evacuation of exhaust gases in the cylinder, meaning you can't get as much air/fuel into the cylinder, thereby reducing the power.

Get it?? :tu:Got it:tu: :rolleyes:

[Tex Arcana]

Got it:tu: :rolleyes:
Good, there's a quiz on MOnday... :d

[Beaudee]

Good, there's a quiz on MOnday... :d
Your allright Tex!!!:d

[dboat]

Good, there's a quiz on MOnday... :d

I can hear it now....

Question 1
What is your name?
Question 2
What is your quest?
Question 3
What is your favorite color?
Question 4
What is the flight speed of a coconut laden swallow?

:rll: :rll:

Some of you will get it...

Dana

[BLACKSUNSHINE]

I had free flow cats, but they ended up exiting the exhaust. I'm not sure if it was race fuel or what, but the bricks are gone. So, essentially I have gutted cats with the free flow look :)

It is indeed loud....but I like it like that.

--wes

same here, My cats internals of my high flows broke loose and turned sideways and blocked flow from the passenger side. I took it to terry and we cut em out completely. I noticed a performance difference on the freeway at higher rpms. Havn't dynoed yet. As far as inspecting...we'll see its due. It is a hellova lot louder though, with the long tubes and bassani cat back. I didnt know about the 10K fine...:eek2: , and yes it throws codes, I have to clear it once a month or so, wierd thing is if I look at the fault codes it says no fauklts found, yet the light comes on. It runs well so f it.

[Beaudee]

Anyone else have problems with the magnaflow cats?How long do they last?Terry said they like to crack.Will race fuel mess em up?I wanted to be legal,which is why i put em on and they are plenty loud.Does magnaflow warranty them?I am like most here who would probally like them off the truck but didn't want to worry about inspections and hot shot cops.

[ThunderBolt]

Catless mids never affected my torque.

[Tex Arcana]

I can hear it now....

Question 1
What is your name?
Tex of Camelot!

Question 2
What is your quest?
To make my Lightning FASTEST in the land!!

Question 3
What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
What kind of swallow, African or European??

I don't know tha....AAAAIIIIEEEEEEEEE!!!!!Dana


How did you know that, sir??
Well, you have to know these things as king, you know... :d




Yeah, I know, know it tooooo well, but that's one of my all-time favorite movies, and I *just* watched it a couple weeks ago. :tu:

[dboat]

Tex of Camelot!
Well, you have to know these things as king, you know... :d
:tu:

YES!

Next quote..

He looks like a King...

How can you tell?

He doesnt have sh*t all over him... :rll: :rll: :rll:

I have watched that movie prob over 30 times.. I remember going to see it at the theatre 6 weeks in a row when it was released back in the 70's.. what greatness it is..

Dana

[03LightningRocks]

:tu: Maybe Tex and Dana can get a room...:tu: . Seems they have found a bonding moment in this roller coaster ride we call life. I am really happy for you guys, and I am happy that you two found each other. May you live happily ever after.

Meanwhile...the topic of the thread is about exhausts!!!!!!

I have not heard about the magnaflows cracking problem. Is this all of them...a couple...or just one that was 5 years old???

One thing that I will mention. Any part that is in a high H.P. truck get's beat to sh!t. Heck...my EBC rotors cracked all to hell and back after one year. Maybe they cracked because of extreme conditions???

[Tex Arcana]

YES!

Next quote..

He looks like a King...

How can you tell?

He doesnt have sh*t all over him... :rll: :rll: :rll:

I have watched that movie prob over 30 times.. I remember going to see it at the theatre 6 weeks in a row when it was released back in the 70's.. what greatness it is..

Dana

"Die Iesu Domine...<THUNK!>...Dona eiis requiem...<THUNK!>...Die Iesu Domine...<THUNK!>...Dona eiis requiem...<THUNK!>

"BRING OUT YER DEAD! BRING OUT YER DEAD!" :rll:

BRING OUT YER DEAD!!

[Tex Arcana]

:tu: Maybe Tex and Dana can get a room...:tu: . Seems they have found a bonding moment in this roller coaster ride we call life. I am really happy for you guys, and I am happy that you two found each other. May you live happily ever after.

Meanwhile...the topic of the thread is about exhausts!!!!!!

I have not heard about the magnaflows cracking problem. Is this all of them...a couple...or just one that was 5 years old???

One thing that I will mention. Any part that is in a high H.P. truck get's beat to sh!t. Heck...my EBC rotors cracked all to hell and back after one year. Maybe they cracked because of extreme conditions???

UTSF (http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=mkfced)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/texarcana/SMiles/HIJACKED-SPANGE.jpg (http://photobucket.com/)

Do you have drilled/slotted rotors?? 'Cuz I don't think what you do with that truck being hard enough on the brakes to cause that problem, tho I could be wrong. :rolleyes:

After a short intermission, we will return to the "Monty Python Love-In"... :d

[dboat]

:tu: Maybe Tex and Dana can get a room...:tu: . Seems they have found a bonding moment in this roller coaster ride we call life. I am really happy for you guys, and I am happy that you two found each other. May you live happily ever after.

And jealousy rears its ugly green head again... :evil

You cant stand that you werent part of it... :throw:

Dana

[Tex Arcana]

And jealousy rears its ugly green head again... :evil

You cant stand that you werent part of it... :throw:

Dana

:rll::rll:

[Silver_2000]

call it butt dyno or deny it - But 3 or 4 years ago before the Long tube headers were available people were trying all kinds of combos. I know I saw at least one back to back dyno of cats and no cats -

No cats lost torque - So you add lost torque to $10,000 fine and emissions problems and you have to ask ifits worth it

Doug

[tiffo60]

but does anyone know anybody who has ever been caught and fined for not having cats, i have never heard of it around here, and me and countless people of been doing it for years

[03LightningRocks]

:tu: Maybe Tex and Dana can get a room...:tu: . Seems they have found a bonding moment in this roller coaster ride we call life. I am really happy for you guys, and I am happy that you two found each other. May you live happily ever after.

Meanwhile...the topic of the thread is about exhausts!!!!!!

I have not heard about the magnaflows cracking problem. Is this all of them...a couple...or just one that was 5 years old???

One thing that I will mention. Any part that is in a high H.P. truck get's beat to sh!t. Heck...my EBC rotors cracked all to hell and back after one year. Maybe they cracked because of extreme conditions???


I would still like to se an answer to this one. Is this cracking magnaflow cat issue an isolated situation...or is it supposedly happening alot? What was the HP level of the truck it happened on?

[03LightningRocks]

OH yeah....taking off the cats can and does affect torque and HP.

Having gutted cats makes a truck sound like the exhaust is vibrating from a garbage can.

It makes no sense at all to remove your cats for everyone posting on this forum, except for me since I run leaded gas and rarely drive on the street. There is no gain to be had with this move. The reason those of us without cats remove them is that we run leaded gas and have trucks/cars that are race track/trailer queens. My truck will self gut the cats after about 12 passes anyway.

The sound of your exhaust can be altered by changing the exhaust configuration. So if loud is what your after...the cats are the wrong place to get it.

Rocks

[dboat]

OH yeah....taking off the cats can and does affect torque and HP.

Having gutted cats makes a truck sound like the exhaust is vibrating from a garbage can.

It makes no sense at all to remove your cats for everyone posting on this forum, except for me since I run leaded gas and rarely drive on the street. There is no gain to be had with this move. The reason those of us without cats remove them is that we run leaded gas and have trucks/cars that are race track/trailer queens. My truck will self gut the cats after about 12 passes anyway.

The sound of your exhaust can be altered by changing the exhaust configuration. So if loud is what your after...the cats are the wrong place to get it.

Rocks

Rocks, did you say something? I was mesmerized by your avatar...:eek2:

Dana

[03LightningRocks]

Rocks, did you say something? I was mesmerized by your avatar...:eek2:

Dana


Yeah...it makes you want to find the pause button, doesn't it?


:evil

[Tex Arcana]

call it butt dyno or deny it - But 3 or 4 years ago before the Long tube headers were available people were trying all kinds of combos. I know I saw at least one back to back dyno of cats and no cats -

No cats lost torque - So you add lost torque to $10,000 fine and emissions problems and you have to ask ifits worth it

Doug

Did said dyno take into account power/torque loss from heat soak? How much time between runs? What time of day, what atmospheric conditions? Hmmm?? ;)

[Tex Arcana]

Yeah...it makes you want to find the pause button, doesn't it?


:evil
Hell makes me wish I was the hands making them move... :evil

[03LightningRocks]

Tex....you sound like a moron quizing Doug like you think you know something. I must say that it is real hard sometimes for me to sit around and watch you nubes try to hash over sh!t that the old timers around here have since figured out and stowed awy in the knowledge banks long ago.

Go ahead Tex....get rid of your cats...that should give you at least 1/2 second off in the quarter...:evil

[Alpine]

Tex....you sound like a moron quizing Doug like you think you know something. I must say that it is real hard sometimes for me to sit around and watch you nubes try to hash over sh!t that the old timers around here have since figured out and stowed awy in the knowledge banks long ago.

Go ahead Tex....get rid of your cats...that should give you at least 1/2 second off in the quarter...:evil:rll:

[my2002lightning]

As far as loud exhausts go, I've had PR's Wild-setup cat-back on my L for ~2-3 yrs. and it seems to have grown louder.knana

I used to really like it, but now, I have to pull over to take a cell-call on the Blue-Tooth.:cool:

I'd do it all over again, though.:)

Ronald

[Tex Arcana]

Tex....you sound like a moron quizing Doug like you think you know something. I must say that it is real hard sometimes for me to sit around and watch you nubes try to hash over sh!t that the old timers around here have since figured out and stowed awy in the knowledge banks long ago.

Go ahead Tex....get rid of your cats...that should give you at least 1/2 second off in the quarter...:evil

So you're telling me his "back-to-back dyno" was a valid test of the theory?? When in fact it was not?

If it were a REAL valid test, not only would it have been performed on an engine dyno in controlled conditions; it would also have been performed more than twice--likely at least 5 times in EACH CONFIGURATION--before the data was properly analyzed, and the result tabulated; and before ANY conclusions were drawn.

A back-to-back wheel dyno is no test at all, for the reasons I listed. There are too many variables to deal with to make it valid.

The fact is, the way to developing power is through flow: the more air you can flow, the more fuel you can burn, and the more power you can make. There *are* factors that determine torque, and to be honest I don't understand all of them, which is why I ask questions to begin with.

[:throw:]I'm sorry if the questions annoy you, but to be bluntly honest, I couldn't give a rat's ass for your annoyance, because *I* am trying to learn something here: so excuse the fsck out of me dude, not all of us know as much as you apparently think you do. [/:throw:]

[03LightningRocks]

Bullsh!t Tx...you aren't trying to learn sh!t. You are show boating. It isn't about an us either. So just you......your post to Doug was not meant to gain any knowledge at all. It was wriiten as a smart ass retort toward Doug telling you the research had been done already.

Don't try to come off as all innocent now....it just makes it even sillier.


I have an idea...Mr 356 HP street ride. Do your own testing. Pull off your cats...and see what you gain.


Rocks

[Silver_2000]

Did said dyno take into account power/torque loss from heat soak? How much time between runs? What time of day, what atmospheric conditions? Hmmm?? ;)

I dont recall - It wasnt done by Nasa but it was followed up by 1/4 trips and others who confirmed the SAME results ...
But Tex we know you know better so have at it ...
:confused: :rolleyes:

I agree that dyno numbers can be fudged - but this info passed the DB ( thats me ) internet BS test. Was it confirmed by a number of independent people at independant times - YES
Was it even partially confirmed by local people - YES
Thats enough for me

[Silver_2000]

The fact is, the way to developing power is through flow: the more air you can flow, the more fuel you can burn, and the more power you can make. There *are* factors that determine torque, and to be honest I don't understand all of them, which is why I ask questions to begin with.


Sorry if it were that simple then the mere fact of putting on Long tubes should MAKE power - But they DONT. By themselves Long tubes dont do ****. Im sure you will argue that one as well. But how many Lightnigs have you driven that were stock and that had Long tubes ?

[03LightningRocks]

Maybe this will clear some of the fog...maybe it won't.....:) . Some of the mod options we do to our trucks don't give you much or even any gain by themselves. Exhaust mods are one of the mods that are not going to show alot of gain if the exhaust is all your messing with.

Let me esplain.... Putting high flow cats and long tube headers on gained me around 6 H.P. and about 11 ftlbs of torque. This was while running 6lbs over boost(about 14lbs). Making the same exhaust change while running factory boost or just over factory would gain me almost nothing. Reason??? The stock exhaust system is plenty effecient for the air flow movement through the engine when running at or near stock boost levels.

Let's now take this to another level. Keeping the stock exhaust manifold while replacing the cats with high flow cats will also do very little or maybe even nothing for you. Reason??? The same reason as above...the restriction is in the exhaust manifold at this point...not the stock cats.

Next level....Replace the stock manifold with some long tubes or even some shorties(not as good as LT, but better than stock manifold) and keep the stock cats. Now the restriction is in the cats. So now if you come along later and replace the cats with some high flows....it will appear as if the cats gave you a few HP...like maybe 3. Because you relieved the restriction that kept the LT's from giving you your full LT gain.

Now don't forget...to gain the numbers I talk about above, one must be at a level of power that exceeds the limits of the stock exhaust.

Next level...replace high flow cats with straight pipe...very little if any gain due to the fact that the high flows are not creating a restriction anyway. For this to be effective...you need to be in the 650-750 HP range...even then it is a big maybe.

Any more questions?????


Rocks

[Silver_2000]

good points Rocks - being a selfish ******* all my points are from my 4# experience. Clearly once you are running BOOM type boost the rules change

[03LightningRocks]

good points Rocks - being a selfish ******* all my points are from my 4# experience. Clearly once you are running BOOM type boost the rules change


Absolutely...and this is the point I was trying to make with my post. If the exhaust system a person has is sufficient for the level of HP they have, changing the exhaust isn't going to help at all. It might even hurt your numbers.

The factory exhaust on our Lightnings is actually pretty darned effecient. This is why folks see almost no gains from altering it. Some even experience a loss if they aren't careful.



Rocks

[Beaudee]

If your looking for sound try bigger tips.Mine are 24" X4" Truck sounds awsome with headers/highflow cats.Tips are chrome plated stainless.

[AFSVT01]

damn i started an arguement with this thread. didnt expect that. anyway im going to order a bassani 2cat midpipe at the end of the month. thanks for all of the input. ill be in dallas for some dyno time on saturday at dallas mustang. if anyone has time stop in around midday.

-matt

[dboat]

Rocks,
Now I am curious about the exhaust piece.. If I am running a fast air, ported plenum, etc.. 4# more of boost... am I beyond the stock exhaust? or am I at the reasonable limit of what it will handle and making mod just wont get me much if anything?
Dana

[StormShadow]

damn i started an arguement with this thread. didnt expect that. anyway im going to order a bassani 2cat midpipe at the end of the month. thanks for all of the input. ill be in dallas for some dyno time on saturday at dallas mustang. if anyone has time stop in around midday.

-matt

You should have contacted Terry about your dyno tune, but good luck.

[BC Lightning]

The factory exhaust on our Lightnings is actually pretty darned effecient. This is why folks see almost no gains from altering it. Some even experience a loss if they aren't careful.

+1

They stock exhaust flows really well, relative to the mods and power being made. Cat-back is for mere sound, as well as cats/no cats and headers if your not making the power to utalize them. Now with a ported blower, Magnums Power, Kenne-Bell, Whipple etc, then yes the need for less restrictive exhaust is a must, other than that its for sound and noise.

Our trucks aren't like mustangs, to where you can go and slap on flowmaster mufflers with an off-road h/x-pipe

[03LightningRocks]

Rocks,
Now I am curious about the exhaust piece.. If I am running a fast air, ported plenum, etc.. 4# more of boost... am I beyond the stock exhaust? or am I at the reasonable limit of what it will handle and making mod just wont get me much if anything?
Dana

If your looking to gain HP/TQ, you are going to be real darned disapointed. Now if you plan to increase boost to make more HP at some future point...what the heck...HP gain isn't the issue. Running more boost with less stress on the motor is the issue.

Running no cats at the level of HP you or the guy that started this thread is at...STUPID...plain and simple. No gain over high flows and like the poster who said earlier pointed out...something a 16 year old would do. Mostly because he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. But all the cool kids said it was the thing to do.

I would really like to see someone do a dyno comparison of high flow cats to no cats...it would be funnier than watching Red Fox have another heart attack.
Rocks

[99WhiteBeast]

it would be funnier than watching Red Fox have another heart attack.
Rocks

:rll:

[03LightningRocks]

Funniest Muther Focker that ever Lived.....IMHO :tu: :tu: :tu:


http://www.talonclub.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1849&d=1139446724

[03LightningRocks]

+1

They stock exhaust flows really well, relative to the mods and power being made. Cat-back is for mere sound, as well as cats/no cats and headers if your not making the power to utalize them. Now with a ported blower, Magnums Power, Kenne-Bell, Whipple etc, then yes the need for less restrictive exhaust is a must, other than that its for sound and noise.

Our trucks aren't like mustangs, to where you can go and slap on flowmaster mufflers with an off-road h/x-pipe


Nice summary Michael....:tu: . Quite honestly...the day Terry showed me 2 hunks of screen and two empty canisters that at one point where called cats....the only reason I said screw it is because he told me I would continue to blow out cats as long as I drove my truck like a dragster. Between the leaded gas and the high HP...cats don't stand a chance on my truck. But again...I don't drive it on the street very often that way. But gaining HP or sound was not my reason for leaving them off. If I start driving my L as a daily driver again...I WILL be putting high flow cats on it.

:0fftopic By the way....do ya'll think I would look cool in a black 2006 Mustang GT. My daughter seems to think that us old guys screwed up the Vet image first...and now we are messing up the Mustang image. I am thinking I need a new daily driver. Mustang GT with an after market Saleen kit sounds like the ticket.:0fftopic

Rocks

[Tex Arcana]

Rocks, you're right, and you're wrong. ;)

Wrong, in that you mustn't know me very well at all (not that you've made any effort to do so, but that's besides the point): my entire LIFE is one big learning experience. If I were unable to learn, I'd be the biggest racist cross-burning motherfocker on the planet, because of merely PART of my childhood; the other half of my childhood shoudl've left me an axe murderer, btw. But NEITHER did, because I've got the brains enough to know better. I also have enough smarts to know I'm not the sharpest tack in the box; and to know WHEN to back down. There is ONE thing I WILL NOT do, and that's kiss someone's ass just because they *seem* like they know what they're talking about, but refuse to back up what they say with either reasonable explanations or facts. If I see something that doesn't make sense, I'm gonna try to make sense of it, and if I can't, then I'm gonna call ya on the carpet to explain yourself. You can call BS all you want, ROcks, but 'til you actually spend enough time with me and get to know ME, and not this silly InTaRwEb PeRsOnA that tends to come out online, you're really in no position to judge.

And now, how are you RIGHT??? ;)
Simple: you actually took the time to explain how the exhaust question works, and where the "common wisdom" fails. And I thank you for that. :bows: I do have a couple of points to add to that particular discussion, tho, if I may: for one, if you look at pretty much any form of racing, the extreme being Formula One, you find that my assertion is very correct: the more air/fuel you can move, the more power you can make. Of course, those motors typically don't have the grunt our motors have (or, more correctly, they don't have the same hp/tq ratio ours have), but they trade the torque off for higher horsepower numbers (another piece in that horsepower/torque relationship puzzle I'm still figuring out).

One thing I did notice when I got my cat-back: the motor *felt* more responsive. Yeah, butt-dyno, but I do think mine is pretty good, especially for my daily drivers, and I could feel the motor was more willing to spool up, and that the low-end grunt sufferred slightly. So I think you assertion may be correct, and it makes sense: increase flow, increase horsepower, trade off torque.

Given your statements about our trucks, I think you're right about gutted cats being a silly idea (the ONLY reason I was asking was because I was thinking thru an idea somone else gave me, to run a venturi in the exhaust to run the PCV system; which, if plumbed where it has to be to do any good, would foul the cats in a heartbeat, which brings up the question of *needing* the cats in the first place, and the answer is already there, besides the power issue. :tu:

Thank you very much, Rocks, despite your "BS" assertion... I learned something tonite, even if I'm still bent on arguing a few points. ;)

Doug: given this discussion, your assertion seems correct; one of these days, you'll learn that I just won't take any Tom/Dick/Harry's word for anything, that I'll challenge the asserter to back up his or her claims, as much for *MY OWN* edification as for everyone else's--because, if I'm learning, it means someone ELSE is or can be learning from the same thing, meaning at least two people just got a smidgen smarter. :tu:

[Tex Arcana]

:0fftopic By the way....do ya'll think I would look cool in a black 2006 Mustang GT. My daughter seems to think that us old guys screwed up the Vet image first...and now we are messing up the Mustang image. I am thinking I need a new daily driver. Mustang GT with an after market Saleen kit sounds like the ticket.:0fftopic

Rocks

I got to drive one a few months ago, the last one Bob Tomes had on their lot at the time (in the showroom--they even backed it out to let me take it for a spin :eek2:), and DAY-UM... that was NIIICE. :tu: And yeah, that would be a great DD for ya.

Which Saleen kit, the suspension/bodykit, or the blower kit?? I really like that design, and from what I've read in MMFF, it looks like it'll do quite nicely in making decent power. :tu:

[03LightningRocks]

The blower kit....makes it an instant mid eleven second car. And does it at around 4lbs of boost.

[Tex Arcana]

The blower kit....makes it an instant mid eleven second car. And does it at around 4lbs of boost.

No sh!t... and a helluva testament to the capabilities of that 3V motor... makes me want to change my plans for a 4v 5.4 motor to a 3v.... :d

[03LightningRocks]

:0fftopic One of my FFW buds just had the kit put on his. He will be running it in Orlando. Brand spanking new car. He took it straight to Jim D out in Jersey for the kit. He is chomping at the bit to run it at the track. I believe he told me it was putting down 475 H.P. After he actually puts it on the track...I will post up what he runs and what boost he is hitting it with.

It is just damned amazing to me that 4lbs of boost can make that much HP.

[02BOLT]

The blower kit....makes it an instant mid eleven second car. And does it at around 4lbs of boost.

Black on Black, with Black Anodized HRE 645R's(19"x8.5" front/ 19"x11" out back w/ 335 meats on those bad boys) with chromed lips and a nice little deep dish on the rears. Maybe throw some 14" Brembos in the mix(Silver Calipers to offset the all the black). Dropped about an 1.5"-2", with the Saleen S/C, upper pulley, Injectors, MAF upgrade, KOOKS Long Tubes, and 3.73's.....Now we're talkin'!:evil ....just a suggestion.:D

[Mark #2]

:0fftopic By the way....do ya'll think I would look cool in a black 2006 Mustang GT. My daughter seems to think that us old guys screwed up the Vet image first...and now we are messing up the Mustang image. I am thinking I need a new daily driver. Mustang GT with an after market Saleen kit sounds like the ticket.:0fftopic

Rocks
Old guys in sports cars is the norm, you will not be looking cool unless you are buff, tanned, and have good grey hair or dye it black.:D

[03LightningRocks]

Black on Black, with Black Anodized HRE 645R's(19"x8.5" front/ 19"x11" out back w/ 335 meats on those bad boys) with chromed lips and a nice little deep dish on the rears. Maybe throw some 14" Brembos in the mix(Silver Calipers to offset the all the black). Dropped about an 1.5"-2", with the Saleen S/C, upper pulley, Injectors, MAF upgrade, KOOKS Long Tubes, and 3.73's.....Now we're talkin'!:evil ....just a suggestion.:D


I think I just got wood...:eek: . You think I should gut the cats...or just take them off...:rll: .

Long time no see, my friend. I hope the little one is doing well.


Ron:beer: :beer:

[WA 2 FST]

4psi from an Eaton blower (or whatever positive displacement blower Saleen uses) makes a 3v 4.6 go from ~260rwhp stock to 475rwhp? :eek2: Call me very skeptical on that one.

It's a mid-13 second car stock... 13.3-13.5 @ 105mph. I don't see it running mid-11s on street tires with a blower installed putting out 4psi. Maybe with some slicks, more gearing, long tube headers, etc, etc.

Plus, all of us could go to NJ and run at ATCO or Englishtown and immediately knock off .4-.5 off our best times. What something runs up there is not typical...but I'm getting off the subject even further.

I just don't see a 3v 4.6 being more efficient than the 4v 4.6. It takes more than just a little added boost to get a 4v Cobra to 475rwhp.

[03LightningRocks]

Old guys in sports cars is the norm, you will not be looking cool unless you are buff, tanned, and have good grey hair or dye it black.:D


Believe it or not...I am working on the buff part. Now that I have the smoking under control, I am trying to loose all the weight gain from stopping.

I am walking 5 miles a day now.

[03LightningRocks]

4psi from an Eaton blower (or whatever positive displacement blower Saleen uses) makes a 3v 4.6 go from ~260rwhp stock to 475rwhp? :eek2: Call me very skeptical on that one.

It's a mid-13 second car stock... 13.3-13.5 @ 105mph. I don't see it running mid-11s on street tires with a blower installed putting out 4psi. Maybe with some slicks, more gearing, long tube headers, etc, etc.

Plus, all of us could go to NJ and run at ATCO or Englishtown and immediately knock off .4-.5 off our best times. What something runs up there is not typical...but I'm getting off the subject even further.

I just don't see a 3v 4.6 being more efficient than the 4v 4.6. It takes more than just a little added boost to get a 4v Cobra to 475rwhp.


I'm just repeating what I was told on the phone 3 days ago...If I find out that I have my story mixed up...I will change it....:D . Englishtown is only quicker when the weather is cooler. Kind of like our Hallsville mod. My bud is from North Carolina.

I will update you when he actually runs it at the track.

Edit...he did do full exhaust and the other basic helper mods. Sorry, I have a habit of thinking of the basic mods as assumed changes.

[WA 2 FST]

I'm not calling any BS on you. I just couldn't imagine one bolt on (4psi from a blower) resulting in a 200rwhp gain. :)

All the "record" times set at Englishtown are when the temps are cool like you say and the baro. press. is over 31.00". Hallsville has nothing on that, not even close.

ATCO is big time downhill. Might as well be on a ski slope.

You've raced all over, so you know this stuff of course. :D

[Tex Arcana]

I think I just got wood...:eek: . You think I should gut the cats...or just take them off...:rll: .

Ron:beer: :beer:
OH, GNOES, YUO MUST PLUM A VENTURI INTO TEH EXHAUST FOR UR PCV!!! AND INSTALL A FARTCAN!! :evil

[03LightningRocks]

Just got off the phone with a Yankee bud...:D . My story is screwed up. He is running 14 lbs of boost. The Saleen series super charger makes 7lbs of boost. With the kit he bought he recieved a 4lb and 6lb upper pulley. I guess I got the 4lb number from the upper pulley size he is running. Also the H.P. is 440 not 475. His truck is what was making 475 on his stock motor. while talking with Don the other day, we talked about trailers too, I am probably lucky I didn't mix in the payload of the trailer with the numbers.
He had Jim do his complete kit. Which includes exhaust, injectors, MAF, gears...the works.

Hope this clears it up. It is still damned impressive to me...knana


Ron

[Tex Arcana]

I'm not calling any BS on you. I just couldn't imagine one bolt on (4psi from a blower) resulting in a 200rwhp gain. :)

All the "record" times set at Englishtown are when the temps are cool like you say and the baro. press. is over 31.00". Hallsville has nothing on that, not even close.

ATCO is big time downhill. Might as well be on a ski slope.

You've raced all over, so you know this stuff of course. :D

Last month's MMFF (I think) did an article on that, and got significant gains on that blower kit. Of course, it's a twin-screw, and not an Heaton, so that's part of it's capability, not to mention the kit is intercooled. :tu:

Oh, btw, on the 3v, vs. 4v deal, two things come to play: primarily, the variable valve timing is the big deal here, tho when MMFF put a centri blower a 3v on the engine dyno, they got up to 630+Hp, no intercooler, with no VVT. Secondarily, three valves can occupy more area than four, given the geometry of the combustion chamber; so it follows that three valves can flow more than four, in certain circumstances.

[03LightningRocks]

I'm not calling any BS on you. I just couldn't imagine one bolt on (4psi from a blower) resulting in a 200rwhp gain. :)

All the "record" times set at Englishtown are when the temps are cool like you say and the baro. press. is over 31.00". Hallsville has nothing on that, not even close.

ATCO is big time downhill. Might as well be on a ski slope.

You've raced all over, so you know this stuff of course. :D


I have not yet raced at atco, but I can tell you that both times I was at Englishtown it was over 90 degrees and the density altitude was in the 2400 range. I have been to Hallsville with a density altitude in the 700 ft range. I have seen DA in the 3400 range at Ennis...and other times at Ennis I have seen 1200 ft. The point I am making is that depending on temps, humidity and barometric pressure....darn near any track can give you a new best time. You just have to be there the day it happens. Kind of like hitting a good fishing hole...;) .

[WA 2 FST]

Ron, those are impressive numbers, no doubt. But the new insight to what he's running makes more sense...a lot more sense. I'm surprised he didn't have to lower the CR of the motor to run 14psi, but that may just show how efficient the 3v motor is. :)

Tex... all I know is 14psi from a Heaton on a 4v 4.6 Cobra will make close to 500+rwhp with the auxilary mods (exhaust, CAI, H/E). Add a KB or Whipple and go 18-20psi and you're going to be knocking on the 600rwhp door with less mods than listed above for the 3-valve motor. Now, the 4v motor may be spinning more rpms than the 3v motor, thus giving it even more room to play with. I honestly have not followed all the build-ups of the 3v motors, primarily since I'm not in the market at the moment.

[03LightningRocks]

Just got off the phone with a Yankee bud...:D . My story is screwed up. He is running 14 lbs of boost. The Saleen series super charger makes 7lbs of boost. With the kit he bought he recieved a 4lb and 6lb upper pulley. I guess I got the 4lb number from the upper pulley size he is running. Also the H.P. is 440 not 475. His truck is what was making 475 on his stock motor. while talking with Don the other day, we talked about trailers too, I am probably lucky I didn't mix in the payload of the trailer with the numbers.
He had Jim do his complete kit. Which includes exhaust, injectors, MAF, gears...the works.

Hope this clears it up. It is still damned impressive to me...knana


Ron

To the top...........


I wanted to make sure my correction didn't get lost in the quick multiple posts....:cool:

[WA 2 FST]

I have not yet raced at atco, but I can tell you that both times I was at Englishtown it was over 90 degrees and the density altitude was in the 2400 range. I have been to Hallsville with a density altitude in the 700 ft range. I have seen DA in the 3400 range at Ennis...and other times at Ennis I have seen 1200 ft. The point I am making is that depending on temps, humidity and barometric pressure....darn near any track can give you a new best time. You just have to be there the day it happens. Kind of like hitting a good fishing hole...;) .

I agree 100%. I guess I've heard plenty of guys talking about racing at -1500' up there, and it makes me sick. LOL. There are several guys up there running stock '02+ Z06s that ran 11.8-11.9 @ 118mph ... bone stock. Impressive driving, but they also have the benefit of racing in air that we'll never see... unless we "fish" on a "once in a lifetime" day.

[03LightningRocks]

Ron, those are impressive numbers, no doubt. But the new insight to what he's running makes more sense...a lot more sense. I'm surprised he didn't have to lower the CR of the motor to run 14psi, but that may just show how efficient the 3v motor is. :)

Tex... all I know is 14psi from a Heaton on a 4v 4.6 Cobra will make close to 500+rwhp with the auxilary mods (exhaust, CAI, H/E). Add a KB or Whipple and go 18-20psi and you're going to be knocking on the 600rwhp door with less mods than listed above for the 3-valve motor. Now, the 4v motor may be spinning more rpms than the 3v motor, thus giving it even more room to play with. I honestly have not followed all the build-ups of the 3v motors, primarily since I'm not in the market at the moment.

I am positive they didn't do any major motor changes. The car was brand new and Don doesn't want to have to cage it. He wants to keep it in the mid to high eleven range for running it in the new US class with FFW.

[Tex Arcana]

Ron, those are impressive numbers, no doubt. But the new insight to what he's running makes more sense...a lot more sense. I'm surprised he didn't have to lower the CR of the motor to run 14psi, but that may just show how efficient the 3v motor is. :)

Tex... all I know is 14psi from a Heaton on a 4v 4.6 Cobra will make close to 500+rwhp with the auxilary mods (exhaust, CAI, H/E). Add a KB or Whipple and go 18-20psi and you're going to be knocking on the 600rwhp door with less mods than listed above for the 3-valve motor. Now, the 4v motor may be spinning more rpms than the 3v motor, thus giving it even more room to play with. I honestly have not followed all the build-ups of the 3v motors, primarily since I'm not in the market at the moment.

I've been following it with alot of interest, partially because the G3 Lightning (R.I.P.) would've had a 3v motor; partially because the Mustang and it's 3v motor; and partially because of my assertion. Not to mention I"m a damn technology junkie--striek that, I'm an AUTOMOTIVE TECH junkie. :d

I'd love to see flow tests on a set of Cobra heads and 3v heads, just for the hell of it. ;)

[02BOLT]

I think I just got wood...:eek: . You think I should gut the cats...or just take them off...:rll: .

Long time no see, my friend. I hope the little one is doing well.


Ron:beer: :beer:
In continuing the off topic, topic...

The little one is doing great, only he's not so little anymore. He just turned 10 weeks on Monday and weighed in at 14.6 lbs last Tuesday(2/2)! Little sucker's growing fast! I swear I can see a diiference in him from the time I leave the house in the morning, to the time i get home in the evening.:eek:

In reference to the Saleen blower....I know for a fact, it's a twin screw design. The 2006 Saleen SC Mustangs come rated at 435 HP(Flywheel) with 4 psi. stock. I believe they dyno around 390 RWHP(of course that's with stock MAF, injectors, exhaust etc...). That's pretty damn impressive to me, in and of itself.

Last I read, JDM had their '05 Stang with the Saleen blower on it, with the host of supporting hardware(with I believe b/w 10 & 12 psi), and full drag set-up, running somewhere in the mid 11's at around 115 mph or so, on slicks or ET Streets. That's still awfully quick!

MM&FF did a drag test on the Supercharged '05 Saleen, several months ago, and they got consistent 12.50's out of it at 110 or so, at 4 psi. I believe it was in that article that they dynoed it at 390 RWHP.

If I had an '05-'06 Stang, that's the blower I'd be going for, versus the centrifugal guys, simply due to its packaging, factory looks, and excellent low-end and mid range power production. Just my .02:tu:

Edit: I just saw the above post referencing the 14psi of your bud's combination.

[03LightningRocks]

In continuing the off topic, topic...

The little one is doing great, only he's not so little anymore. He just turned 10 weeks on Monday and weighed in at 14.6 lbs last Tuesday(2/2)! Little sucker's growing fast! I swear I can see a diiference in him from the time I leave the house in the morning, to the time i get home in the evening.:eek:

In reference to the Saleen blower....I know for a fact, it's a twin screw design, but I can assure you, it will take more than 4psi to get 475 RWHP out of that bad boy. The 2006 Saleen SC Mustangs come rated at 435 HP(Flywheel) with 4 psi. stock. I believe they dyno around 390 RWHP(of course that's with stock MAF, injectors, exhaust etc...). That's pretty damn impressive to me, in and of itself.

Last I read, JDM had their '05 Stang with the Saleen blower on it, with the host of supporting hardware(including a smaller blower pulley, making around 8-10psi), and full drag set-up, running somewhere in the mid 11's at around 115 mph on slicks or ET Streets. That's still awfully quick for a max of 10 psi!

MM&FF did a drag test on the Supercharged '05 Saleen, several months ago, and they got consistent 12.50's out of it at 110 or so, at 4 psi. I believe it was in that article that they dynoed it at 390 RWHP.

If I had an '05-'06 Stang, that's the blower I'd be going for, versus the centrifugal guys, simply due to its packaging, factory looks, and excellent low-end and mid range power production. Just my .02:tu:

Before you know it, you will be packing him off to college. They grow up too darned quick. I sometimes regret that I worked so much when mine where little. That is what happens when you have them when your young....I was 18 when I had my first one. The upside is that you are still young when they finally get out on their own...LOL.


Good points on the Saleen SC. kit.

[Tex Arcana]

In continuing the off topic, topic...

The little one is doing great, only he's not so little anymore. He just turned 10 weeks on Monday and weighed in at 14.6 lbs last Tuesday(2/2)! Little sucker's growing fast! I swear I can see a diiference in him from the time I leave the house in the morning, to the time i get home in the evening.:eek:

In reference to the Saleen blower....I know for a fact, it's a twin screw design. The 2006 Saleen SC Mustangs come rated at 435 HP(Flywheel) with 4 psi. stock. I believe they dyno around 390 RWHP(of course that's with stock MAF, injectors, exhaust etc...). That's pretty damn impressive to me, in and of itself.

Last I read, JDM had their '05 Stang with the Saleen blower on it, with the host of supporting hardware(with I believe b/w 10 & 12 psi), and full drag set-up, running somewhere in the mid 11's at around 115 mph or so, on slicks or ET Streets. That's still awfully quick!

MM&FF did a drag test on the Supercharged '05 Saleen, several months ago, and they got consistent 12.50's out of it at 110 or so, at 4 psi. I believe it was in that article that they dynoed it at 390 RWHP.

If I had an '05-'06 Stang, that's the blower I'd be going for, versus the centrifugal guys, simply due to its packaging, factory looks, and excellent low-end and mid range power production. Just my .02:tu:

Edit: I just saw the above post referencing the 14psi of your bud's combination.


Nice 2 cents... and thanks for the corection, too damn tired and lazy to get up and get the mags in question. :rolleyes:

Just saw the "Whipple vs. KB" thread in NLOC... damn well about time FRP offerred the Whip for us, and it's a DAMNED GOOD LOOKING unit! :eek2:

[Tex Arcana]

Before you know it, you will be packing him off to college. They grow up too darned quick. I sometimes regret that I worked so much when mine where little. That is what happens when you have them when your young....I was 18 when I had my first one. The upside is that you are still young when they finally get out on their own...LOL.


Good points on the Saleen SC. kit.

Do'nt you know, they're never QUITE out of your hair, ever...:eek2: :d

[AFSVT01]

You should have contacted Terry about your dyno tune, but good luck. im just going with a bunch of mustang guys around here. some are my buds. otherwise i probably wouldnt go since i cant afford to have it tuned right now. just going to go and see what numbers she'll get.

[AFSVT01]

ok theres been a change in plans so now we are going to usa motorsports. is this a good place?

[StormShadow]

ok theres been a change in plans so now we are going to usa motorsports. is this a good place?

I think the dyno of choice is somewhere in Lewisville now. Maybe someone will post up.

[Tex Arcana]

I think the dyno of choice is somewhere in Lewisville now. Maybe someone will post up.

yeah, Speedworks (or what used to be SPeedworks) over there... under new management, and very good with the vehicles, from what I hear. I hope someone has more details.

Hell, we need a dyno day... :d

[BC Lightning]

HPP took over Speedworks in Lewisville, not a bad dyno. RPM is a great shop and dyno, plus I believe they carry race fuel there so if you need a few gallons to dyno

[Tex Arcana]

HPP took over Speedworks in Lewisville, not a bad dyno. RPM is a great shop and dyno, plus I believe they carry race fuel there so if you need a few gallons to dyno

Where's RPM located?

[Mark #2]

Where's RPM located?

http://www.real-performance-motorsports.com/

[BC Lightning]

http://www.real-performance-motorsports.com/

:tu:

[L-Fever]

:tu:

+1

[Tex Arcana]

Time for a dyno day, folks... :d

[Mark #2]

Time for a dyno day, folks... :d

IMHO, Dynos become pretty useless after you have a wideband with data collection.

[BC Lightning]

Time for a dyno day, folks...

Im not big on dyno days :rolleyes: