Kenne Bell vs Whipple

[03LightningRocks]

A few guys here have been itching for this debate, so what the heck, let's have it.

I will start by saying that I am a little biased towards the whipple. I believe the rear entry concept does make for slightly better effeciency and I like the way it looks under the hood(bling factor).

Some here may or may not know that the picture has changed. KB dropped the price of their blower to 2599 last week and also announced that the 2.6 KB is soon to be available...(2 weeks:evil)...actually May 1st, but I thought the two week thing would be funny. I have received back room info from my North Eastern buddies that the 3.3 Whipple is close to being released. Which I have to admit I will believe it when I see it. Whipple seems to be slow to market with product and after watching folks wait for a year or more past promised delivery on the 2.3, I am not holding my breath on the 3.3.

I am about performance and don't mind paying for it, but Holy crap, I am having trouble convincing myself that Whipple is worth 1000 bucks more than a KB.

The 2.6 KB is sure to put out more boost and HP, but is KB going to release something prematurely, in an attempt to oust the new competitor on the block, leaving folks that jump on the 2.6 to deal with problems?

What to do-what to do? I can go back and forth in my mind and argue both sides of this thing for ever. I even posted a poll on NLOC to see what the masses are thinking. It is about what I expected. Guys that have already bought whipples, act like they think the whipple is worth 1000 more. What the heck else are they going to say? They are already committed. But when they made the choice, whipple was only 500-600 more and some folks where still paying 3200 bucks for KB's at the time.


Here is the poll link if you want to throw in your vote and opinion. http://www.nloc.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117560

[wesman]

Kb is a better bang for the buck. Since I already have one, I'll be sticking with it for a while.

If I were buying something new right now, I'd likely go with the KB again

KB $2600
Whipple $3800

Probably add the intake from JLP....so about $3200 and very very comparable #'s.

If I had all of the modding to do over again....I'd go built motor and blower from the get go....screw all the other little knick knack stuff.

--wes

[mk5.0]

The new kennebell will be rear entry just like the whipple...:D

Wesman makes a great point about the price too.....

[tiffo60]

just fyi but i talked to mark at lfp and hes selling the whipples for $3435

[03LightningRocks]

just fyi but i talked to mark at lfp and hes selling the whipples for $3435

That is interesting information. :cool:

[wesman]

just fyi but i talked to mark at lfp and hes selling the whipples for $3435

Sweet...is Mark gonna tune it for you too ??? I couldn't even get the guy on the phone to send me the belt that goes with the interchangeable pulley setup I bought from him. I don't think I'm gonna trust my truck/tune to someone that wont return phone calls etc.

If Terry doesn't return my phone calls I know where he works :evil

Looks like he got a bigger buy-in than Terry would of.

--wes

[Mark #2]

I say get the Whipple so we will have some local data.

Current 2.3 KB with the JLP intake looks pretty good.

Future 2.6 KB will out perform the new Whipple.
Future 3.3 Whipple will out perform the 2.6 KB.
Future 4.0 "unknown" will...well you get the idea.

Yes this is all just opinion as there isn't any data, but bigger is generally better.;)

[L8 APEX]

The KB needs the JLP style plenum period. Buying a KB and installing the "restrictor plate" on it that adapts it to stock plenums is the issue. I will take a pic of the plate tomorrow and show you how much intake area you are losing. Bigger blowers are better as they push more air with lower friction and temps. Installing baby intake plenums on KB's makes me cry seeing the performance they are throwing away.

[dboat]

I happen to like the bling of the Whipple (Big Time) over the KB.. But even I would have a tough time convincing myself to spend the extra $800-1000 for a Whipple over a KB.. The difference in power doesnt justify the money and I am a sucker for bling, but the price is too much apart..

Dana

[Mark #2]

The KB needs the JLP style plenum period. Buying a KB and installing the "restrictor plate" on it that adapts it to stock plenums is the issue. I will take a pic of the plate tomorrow and show you how much intake area you are losing. Bigger blowers are better as they push more air with lower friction and temps. Installing baby intake plenums on KB's makes me cry seeing the performance they are throwing away.

Agree, I am thinking about a JLP intake and slowing the blower down on mine.
L8 you think that this a good idea on my stock block?

[L8 APEX]

The tune is the most important part of engine life. ie you could run 22psi at 6' or timing and 11.4 A/F. Your buddy Swanson tunes more aggressively than I am comfortable with IMO. I remember at LFest he was tuning Tom's truck to run 12's and was burning 24-25 degrees timing on a stock block. I am not that brave, though it obviously can be done. The plenum won't hurt the truck at all especially if you pulley it back to the psi you are use to running. I would expect a 2psi increase in the plenum. There are a lot of gains only seen when a combination is working together. You will see a lot more performance when you get the heads and internals to hold the result of high flow. blah blah blah

[Mark #2]

The tune is the most important part of engine life. ie you could run 22psi at 6' or timing and 11.4 A/F. Your buddy Swanson tunes more aggressively than I am comfortable with IMO. I remember at LFest he was tuning Tom's truck to run 12's and was burning 24-25 degrees timing on a stock block. I am not that brave, though it obviously can be done. The plenum won't hurt the truck at all especially if you pulley it back to the psi you are use to running. I would expect a 2psi increase in the plenum. There are a lot of gains only seen when a combination is working together. You will see a lot more performance when you get the heads and internals to hold the result of high flow. blah blah blah

Thanks for your comments and I agree as I have been on kill for 2 years now, we will see.
The "Frank" of Talon.:D

[03LightningRocks]

Thanks for your comments and I agree as I have been on kill for 2 years now, we will see.
The "Frank" of Talon.:D

I say go for the 10's Markknana. Even if you blow the crap out of the motor on the way...all you have to do is cross the finish line :cool:. Stock block 10's on a KB blower....that would be cool.:tu:

[Mark #2]

I say go for the 10's Markknana. Even if you blow the crap out of the motor on the way...all you have to do is cross the finish line :cool:. Stock block 10's on a KB blower....that would be cool.:tu:

Yeah, many want to see me blow this thing up (not that I haven't tried already), I probably will, you only live once, so why not?

[03LightningRocks]

Yeah, many want to see me blow this thing up (not that I haven't tried already), I probably will, you only live once, so why not?


I don't want to see you blow it up....I want to see you get a 10 out of the stock block. Your only 3 tenths of a second away....that's just a blink of the eye.

[03LightningRocks]

LOL....on a different topic. I think I may be in trouble with my North Eastern buds. Jim Jr. just spotted my poll on NLOC. JDM is selling the whipple, so I am not sure what he meant by his post to me. It could either be...I'll talk to you about this in Florida:mad:...or I will talk to you about this in Florida;).

Maybe I will get a whipple for 2850...LOL. Then again...maybe I will get told off for slowing down whipple sells.

[L8 APEX]

Good thing you're not planning on Florida:D

[03LightningRocks]

Good thing you're not planning on Florida:D


You Think??? :D

[Tex Arcana]

Something not mentioned in this discussion is the "value-added" items you get with a Whipple, namely the upper intake, throttle body, and a chip?? (not sure about the chip, but heard about it). Sounds like Whipple did their homework, and provide a complete solution that complements the blower itself.

Given what I read on the Whipple on NLOC (not your thread), I'd say it's a superior product. Makes the same boost at less RPMs with less heat = more efficient boost.

Maybe it costs more, but if it works better, it's worth it.

Besides, you could always get JDM's new 5.4 Gt motor... :d

[03LightningRocks]

The 3600 dollar kit doesn't come with throttle body and tuner. As far as the rest of the package required to make it fit in my truck, I would be hard pressed to say a filter and plastic elbow are worth 1000 dollar premium.

[wesman]

The KB needs the JLP style plenum period. Buying a KB and installing the "restrictor plate" on it that adapts it to stock plenums is the issue. I will take a pic of the plate tomorrow and show you how much intake area you are losing. Bigger blowers are better as they push more air with lower friction and temps. Installing baby intake plenums on KB's makes me cry seeing the performance they are throwing away.

This begs the question of why the hell I have a C&L instead of the JLP intake??? I've been looking on NLOC.....folks have been selling as they jump ship for the whipples. I'm always late to the party tho and someone already snatches them up.

--wes

[L8 APEX]

This begs the question of why the hell I have a C&L instead of the JLP intake??? I've been looking on NLOC.....folks have been selling as they jump ship for the whipples. I'm always late to the party tho and someone already snatches them up.

--wes
Dollars and sense I guess. I don't deal with JLP so from what I hear he was getting 7-800 bucks for the plenum and everytime I suggested one I heard a NO WAY. So I quit suggesting them and just stock the C&L's for less than half the price of JLP's. Rocks doesn't have one either. I guess most are happy with the performance of C&L and OE style plenums.

[Sixpipes]

Since I have already snagged a KB for the Gen I, it only makes sense for me to look for a KB for the Gen II. Ken Belle makes good stuff and now that the price has dropped because of the pressure from Whipple, the time is probably right for me to make the move. I'm not looking to come up with a 10-second truck since I have 90K miles on my stock motor and transmission, but we know the KB 2300 will do the job if tuned correctly so why pay more for performance that you will never use? :cool:

[StormShadow]

I'm not looking to come up with a 10-second truck but we know the KB 2300 will do the job if tuned correctly so why pay more for performance that you will never use? :cool:

:tu:

[WA 2 FST]

Since I have already snagged a KB for the Gen I, it only makes sense for me to look for a KB for the Gen II. Ken Belle makes good stuff and now that the price has dropped because of the pressure from Whipple, the time is probably right for me to make the move. I'm not looking to come up with a 10-second truck since I have 90K miles on my stock motor and transmission, but we know the KB 2300 will do the job if tuned correctly so why pay more for performance that you will never use? :cool:

Yep. That's what I'm thinking. I don't want to kill my stock motor. I don't really want to run more than 15psi, in fact, and would be happy at 450rwhp/530rwtq.

The only advantage of the Whipple that I see for my application (since both blowers can easily make the power I'm looking for) is that it comes with a better intake/plenum/TB already, whereas the KB requires me to go buy some other parts to maximize the combination.

For these guys with race trucks trying to run 9s, its all about getting the biggest compressor they can to be honest. Whichever flavor of the day/week/year that is will be the hot ticket.

[Tex Arcana]

Yep. That's what I'm thinking. I don't want to kill my stock motor. I don't really want to run more than 15psi, in fact, and would be happy at 450rwhp/530rwtq.

The only advantage of the Whipple that I see for my application (since both blowers can easily make the power I'm looking for) is that it comes with a better intake/plenum/TB already, whereas the KB requires me to go buy some other parts to maximize the combination.

For these guys with race trucks trying to run 9s, its all about getting the biggest compressor they can to be honest. Whichever flavor of the day/week/year that is will be the hot ticket.

Yeah, when you add it all up--chip, TB, plenum, etc--you end up spending more pulling it all together for the KB, makine the Whipple the way to go. :tu:

[03LightningRocks]

LIKE I SAID BEFORE. The whipple tuner kit does not come with throttle body or a tuner. Geeze...what is hard to understand about that????

:rolleyes:

[03LightningRocks]

Oh and the intake is nothing you don't already have if you have an after market filter kit.

[WA 2 FST]

LIKE I SAID BEFORE. The whipple tuner kit does not come with throttle body or a tuner. Geeze...what is hard to understand about that????

:rolleyes:

Ok, so how much is the _complete_ kit?

EDIT: Nevermind. If Whipple's site is correct, the other kit that includes everything is not available yet. So, basically its an apples to apples comparison. In that case, KB wins at the boos levels I'm concerned with.

[QDRHRSE]

LIKE I SAID BEFORE. The whipple tuner kit does not come with throttle body or a tuner. Geeze...what is hard to understand about that????

:rolleyes:

I heard ya the first time! I also saw your post on NLOC. Alot of those guys seemed unhappy that you would even suggest that the whipple was not the greatest thing ever made. I'm not sure who it was, but somebody did a head to head dyno comparison at less than 20lbs of boost (16 I think), on the same motor, and came up almost dead even in HP. It's on NLOC somewhere.....it was in the last couple of weeks.

[WA 2 FST]

I heard ya the first time! I also saw your post on NLOC. Alot of those guys seemed unhappy that you would even suggest that the whipple was not the greatest thing ever made. I'm not sure who it was, but somebody did a head to head dyno comparison at less than 20lbs of boost (16 I think), on the same motor, and came up almost dead even in HP. It's on NLOC somewhere.....it was in the last couple of weeks.

Yep. I saw that thread. It's a fully built motor with ported heads, aftermarket cams, etc. and he did a back to back and at 15psi both blowers powered the motor to 600+rwhp. The graphs were as identical as you could get...well within the error-factor of a dyno.

I think the big advantage of the 2.3Whipple over the 2.2KB is that it has a higher efficiency at maximum cfm. But for someone with a milder combo, it appears as though the difference is negligible. At 15psi my motor won't make close to 600rwhp. It may not even be 450rwhp, so either blower would work fine.

The same type of debate has been played out over the last 15 years with the popular centrifugal blowers for 5.0/5.8 Fords and LT1/LS1 GM motors.

[wesman]

If I recall it was done with the stock restrictor on the KB, with the JLP Plenum it would have been much closer. I think the Whipple put out ~20 more rwhp, but had ~39 less rwtq.

Very close #'s, for the money tho, gota go with the KB.

--wes

[WA 2 FST]

If I recall it was done with the stock restrictor on the KB, with the JLP Plenum it would have been much closer. I think the Whipple put out ~20 more rwhp, but had ~39 less rwtq.

Very close #'s, for the money tho, gota go with the KB.

--wes

I must've read it wrong then. I thought the KB edged the Whipple in HP. However, the KB had the aftermarket plenum and TB.

[03LightningRocks]

I heard ya the first time! I also saw your post on NLOC. Alot of those guys seemed unhappy that you would even suggest that the whipple was not the greatest thing ever made. I'm not sure who it was, but somebody did a head to head dyno comparison at less than 20lbs of boost (16 I think), on the same motor, and came up almost dead even in HP. It's on NLOC somewhere.....it was in the last couple of weeks.

Maybe you heard me the first time, but Tex must have had his head up his a$$ the first time I posted and missed it.:tongue:

The funny part of all this is that I do like the Whipple better. I just want to see the price dropped to around 2800.00 (where it should be if Mr. whipple will get over himself). My hope is that his sales will slow down and he will follow the KB example. :tu:

[BC Lightning]

I must've read it wrong then. I thought the KB edged the Whipple in HP. However, the KB had the aftermarket plenum and TB.

from what i read, he had the JLP plenium

[03LightningRocks]

I must've read it wrong then. I thought the KB edged the Whipple in HP. However, the KB had the aftermarket plenum and TB.

Yep....the KB did have a JLP plenum....which I have trouble believing makes a big difference. The TB is a non-issue since most modded Lightnings have a TB before they ever get close to wanting a blower. It's the same TB you use with the whipple by the way...so probably shouldn't be brought up in a monetary debate on the two blowers...;). That is unless your talking about the 4500 dollar whipple kit. But then we have to decide if the whipple is worth 2 grand more.

Really now...let's get real about what comes with the whipple kit. So it comes with an intake and a undersized air filter...which I am betting will be the first part of the kit to cause trouble when making big boost...meaning 20lbs or more. The filter in the whipple kit has alot less surface area than most existing 12 inch filters. I bet with time, we start hearing of collapsed filters and then some vendor will offer a 350 dollar replacement kit that has a shorter elbow to the intake of the whipple.

Folks love to bring the "extra's" up when talking about what a whipple cost. What the heck is that all about??? I have yet to see anyone buy a KB for a stock truck before buying a TB and a Filter Kit. My point is that if I already have those items on my truck, whipple isn't doing me a favor to make me buy those items a second time.

[Mark #2]

Dollars and sense I guess. I don't deal with JLP so from what I hear he was getting 7-800 bucks for the plenum and everytime I suggested one I heard a NO WAY. So I quit suggesting them and just stock the C&L's for less than half the price of JLP's. Rocks doesn't have one either. I guess most are happy with the performance of C&L and OE style plenums.

What is a C&L intake?

[03LightningRocks]

What is a C&L intake?

http://www.cnlperformance.com/truckintake.html

[Mark #2]

http://www.cnlperformance.com/truckintake.html

Thanks, do you have one,and does it have a larger exit, so you open up the KB restricter plate?

[03LightningRocks]

Thanks, do you have one,and does it have a larger exit, so you open up the KB restricter plate?

Yes I have one....and to be honest with you...I am not sure what the heck folks are talking about when they talk of a "restrictor plate". Terry put it on my truck when he replaced my motor last year. I have never looked at my KB off the truck.

[Alpine]

Yes I have one....and to be honest with you...I am not sure what the heck folks are talking about when they talk of a "restrictor plate". Terry put it on my truck when he replaced my motor last year. I have never looked at my KB off the truck.Ron, here is a picture of the plate that allows you to bolt the oem plenum or the c&l to the KB. The normal opening on a KB is almost as big as the whole plate.



pics

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/20inchSVT/IMG_5025.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/20inchSVT/IMG_5035.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/20inchSVT/IMG_5036.jpg

[Mark #2]

Yes I have one....and to be honest with you...I am not sure what the heck folks are talking about when they talk of a "restrictor plate". Terry put it on my truck when he replaced my motor last year. I have never looked at my KB off the truck.

See the post above with the restricter plate.
This still does not answer the question of do you open up the plate for the C&L intake?

[Alpine]

See the post above with the restricter plate.
This still does not answer the question of do you open up the plate for the C&L intake? The C&L uses the same gaskets as the stock plenum, you dont open up the plate.

Jeff.

[Mark #2]

The C&L uses the same gaskets as the stock plenum, you dont open up the plate.

Jeff.

Thanks, not worth it then IMHO, unless that isn't the minimum cross sectional area.
The stock plenum has a 45 degree angle on the back so maybe that is where the gain is in area?
Mark

[Alpine]

Thanks, not worth it then IMHO, unless that isn't the minimum cross sectional area.
The stock plenum has a 45 degree angle on the back so maybe that is where the gain is?
MarkI agree, its not very attractive either and rubs on an aftermarket hood if you use a phenolic spacer..:hammer:

[Mark #2]

I agree, its not very attractive either and rubs on an aftermarket hood if you use a phenolic spacer..:hammer:

I think the spacer is very bad idea as it increases blower tempertures by eliminating the conduction cooling path to the intake, again IMHO.

[L8 APEX]

Thanks, do you have one,and does it have a larger exit, so you open up the KB restricter plate?
The C&L greatly improves the radius going into the blower and has a much wider and smoother 'elbow' bend compared to the notchy squished stock plenum.

[wesman]

from what i read, he had the JLP plenium

Must be a different thread. It was made abundantly clear in the thread I am referencing that it had a stock plenum. The arguement was that with the JLP plenum it would have likely won the edge in both HP and TQ.

--wes

[ThunderBolt]

I can't see spending that much on a whipple. I'm ordering a new KB 2.3 next week.

[QDRHRSE]

If I recall it was done with the stock restrictor on the KB, with the JLP Plenum it would have been much closer. I think the Whipple put out ~20 more rwhp, but had ~39 less rwtq.

Very close #'s, for the money tho, gota go with the KB.

--wes

Nope. We are talking about different tests. They were a couple of hp apart. Both on the same motor.

Terry, did you get my PM and f/u email?

[03LightningRocks]

Thanks for the pic Jeff. Now I know what they mean by "restrictor" plate. I have to wonder how much of a benefit can be had by opening up that "restrictor plate" beyond the opening of the throttle body. Even with the JLP intake...it still has to be squeezed past the throttle body before it gets into the plenum.

On the spacer topic, the spacer did make my plenum cooler to the touch after making a pass. It also seemed to allow it to cool quicker. My thought was that it was helping to reduce heat soak from the engine up to the intake plenum.

[Mark #2]

Thanks for the pic Jeff. Now I know what they mean by "restrictor" plate. I have to wonder how much of a benefit can be had by opening up that "restrictor plate" beyond the opening of the throttle body. Even with the JLP intake...it still has to be squeezed past the throttle body before it gets into the plenum.

On the spacer topic, the spacer did make my plenum cooler to the touch after making a pass. It also seemed to allow it to cool quicker. My thought was that it was helping to reduce heat soak from the engine up to the intake plenum.

I agree anything larger than the TB or the MAF cross-sectional area for that matter is up to debate.
You are correct the plenum is cooler but the blower is hotter which I think is a bad thing, but I can argue both sides of this. I took my spacer out a long time ago.

[WA 2 FST]

I agree anything larger than the TB or the MAF cross-sectional area for that matter is up to debate.
You are correct the plenum is cooler but the blower is hotter which I think is a bad thing, but I can argue both sides of this. I took my spacer out a long time ago.

On a N/A motor, there is no debate on a "downstream" air intake piece being larger than something "upstream". It's a waste, and actually airflow velocity is liable to take a dive.

You want the air intake to resemble a funnel. Largest diameter oriface the farthest away from the intake manifold, necking down as it enters the intake manifold. Airflow velocity can be increased this way. Obviously airflow volume can suffer if it is too restrictive. That's why it _is_ rocket science, to a degree, and these engineers get paid the big bucks to figure that out. :)

My opinion is that this same idea holds true on a centrifugally blown or turbocharged application where the compressor is located upstream of the TB/intake manifold.

I am not so sure on a positive displacement blown application, but my opinion would be that there would be no realized gain.

[BC Lightning]

Must be a different thread. It was made abundantly clear in the thread I am referencing that it had a stock plenum. The arguement was that with the JLP plenum it would have likely won the edge in both HP and TQ.

--wes

From the Tex being Tex thread on NLOC


http://www.nloc.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116494&perpage=15&pagen umber=1


Originally posted by Ronnie
Well, I got both of my street tune dynos done on my truck. Race tunes to follow(21 PSI). I am going down Thursday to pick up the graphs and all the datalogging sheets to post. Here are the results so far. You guys might be a little surprised!
1. Motor is fully built with stageIII heads, stage 2.5 cams(special spec'd higher lift cams), and full 3" exhaust off the longtubes without cats.
2. Downstream Airtemps were 110 degrees on both pulls. Temp outside were 51 degrees Monday morning for the KB, 61 degrees today for the Whipple, and the humidity was about the same for both dynos. One more pull will be made with the Whipple tomorrow to get as close as possible to the same outside temps between the two blowers. Truck was brought to operating temperature for both pulls.

KB
15 pounds of boost, 93 pump gas, 14 degrees of timing.
Pulley combo is a 10 pound lower and 3.5 upper.
KB made 611HP/629rwtq

Whipple
15 pounds of boost, 93 pump gas, 14 degrees of timing.
Pulley combo is a 4 pound lower and 3 upper.
Whipple made 604HP/629rwtq

The KB did out perform the Whipple by a little with the JLP plenum on as far as HP is concerned. Torque was the same between the two. I was told the graphs between the two look almost identical. Again, another pull will be made with the Whipple tomorrow and will have the graphs and datalogging by Thursday or Friday for you guys to view. Now, all this testing is being done to be as accurate as possible between the two. No favoritism here either. Well, hope you guys got something out of this and I give a huge "Thank You" to AVT for doing this. More to follow. I was going to wait to post this for the graphs, but I know you guys want to know now.

[wesman]

From the Tex being Tex thread on NLOC


http://www.nloc.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116494&perpage=15&pagen umber=1

Thanks mike. I hadn't see that one. Not a bad comparison, a few variables but at least there is some data to draw a conclusion from.

--wes

[03LightningRocks]

Yep....that was an interesting comparison. I don't know about it being a valid comparison.

Comparing a rear entry blower to a top entry blower with no change in tuning is not an accurate measure of the two blowers. It is an acurate measure of what the tune will produce if kept the same.

Let's just look at the timing issue by itself. The whipple blower with the rear entry makes the same boost with less heat than the KB with it's top entry. What is the significance in this, you may ask? Cooler temps being pumped into the engine means I can move my timing up higher before I start having detonation. By throwing even 2 more degrees of timing in the tune, I can pick up H.P.

IMHO...an accurate comparison would be to tune each combination for maximum H.P. rather than keeping the same tune for each blower.

[wesman]

I think they were looking for more of an apples to apples comparison. It doesn't seem that this test was designed to see what the max output of the two blowers is. We all know you cna run more that 14* of timing and more than 15psi of boost.

This comparison is good for what it is, a base analysis of what you will achieve by pulling your KB and mounting a whipple with no other changes. As seen in this test, not much difference at all.

However, as you noted, you could change the outcome of the test very easily. Since the whipple is a higher displacement blower, it's safe to say that if you up the boost, you'll likely get more power than with the KB at the same extreme boost level (I'd guess 19-20+) due to it being more efficient.

I think for everything but the top 1%ers the KB is more than enough blower.

--wes





Yep....that was an interesting comparison. I don't know about it being a valid comparison.

Comparing a rear entry blower to a top entry blower with no change in tuning is not an accurate measure of the two blowers. It is an acurate measure of what the tune will produce if kept the same.

Let's just look at the timing issue by itself. The whipple blower with the rear entry makes the same boost with less heat than the KB with it's top entry. What is the significance in this, you may ask? Cooler temps being pumped into the engine means I can move my timing up higher before I start having detonation. By throwing even 2 more degrees of timing in the tune, I can pick up H.P.

IMHO...an accurate comparison would be to tune each combination for maximum H.P. rather than keeping the same tune for each blower.

[Mark #2]

Downstream Airtemps were 110 degrees on both pulls.

[03LightningRocks]

Maybe I wasn't clear on what I was getting at. If each blower had been tuned to it's max ability, the outcome could very well have been different.

The KB is likely to have started having detonation issues before the Whipple, due to the lower temps the Whipple operates under. This means you can tune the Whipple to a higher timing than the KB and get more out of it.

One of the reasons I am so big on dyno tuning is that each change in combination of mods allows for very different tuning. Many times it is a matter of these changes allowing the tuner to push for more H.P. safely.

[Mark #2]

Maybe I wasn't clear on what I was getting at. If each blower had been tuned to it's max ability, the outcome could very well have been different.

The KB is likely to have started having detonation issues before the Whipple, due to the lower temps the Whipple operates under. This means you can tune the Whipple to a higher timing than the KB and get more out of it.

One of the reasons I am so big on dyno tuning is that each change in combination of mods allows for very different tuning. Many times it is a matter of the changes allowing the tuner to push for more H.P. safely.

No question, agree

[03LightningRocks]

No question, agree

Looking at the parameters of what he did there, I am starting to think the Ported Stock Eaton at 15lbs of boost would have produced the same results or at least close to it.

15lbs of boost is not that out of line for even a stock supercharger.

[Mark #2]

Looking at the parameters of what he did there, I am starting to think the Ported Stock Eaton at 15lbs of boost would have produced the same results or at least close to it.

15lbs of boost is not that out of line for even a stock supercharger.

If the intercooler is still efficient enough to keep the IAT2 at 110 degrees then it would be the same:

At the same boost and temperature (all other things being held constant), same HP/TQ IMHO. Just like in the first test.

[03LightningRocks]

If the intercooler is still efficient enough to keep the IAT2 at 110 degrees then it would be the same:

At the same boost and temperature (all other things being held constant), same HP/TQ IMHO. Just like in the first test.

Yep...if you keep the test parameters at the level of the lowest component being tested, the result will typically stay the same. I am not sure why that fellow thought he was going to get any result other than the one he got. Same boost, same timing same fuel... of coarse the darned blowers put out the same HP. It's actually funny if you think about it. He sure went to alot of trouble to prove nothing....:rll: .

Based on his testing, one could make a very good argument for never upgrading a blower from stock.

Another factor has changed dramatically in the past year. The engine builders are building in higher compression ratios. This is resulting in more HP with less boost. The rest of us looking at these higher HP levels can forget that we are not able to compare their results to ours.

[03LightningRocks]

I think they were looking for more of an apples to apples comparison. It doesn't seem that this test was designed to see what the max output of the two blowers is. We all know you cna run more that 14* of timing and more than 15psi of boost.

This comparison is good for what it is, a base analysis of what you will achieve by pulling your KB and mounting a whipple with no other changes. As seen in this test, not much difference at all.

However, as you noted, you could change the outcome of the test very easily. Since the whipple is a higher displacement blower, it's safe to say that if you up the boost, you'll likely get more power than with the KB at the same extreme boost level (I'd guess 19-20+) due to it being more efficient.

I think for everything but the top 1%ers the KB is more than enough blower.

--wes

Using this line of thought, a stock ported eaton will suffice for the same crowd. My ported eaton would put out 15lbs of boost without even getting hot.

[wesman]

Looking at the parameters of what he did there, I am starting to think the Ported Stock Eaton at 15lbs of boost would have produced the same results or at least close to it.

15lbs of boost is not that out of line for even a stock supercharger.

I was with you until you said a Heaton would produce similar results. It jsut wouldn't push that much air. You ever sees a 600 rwhp pull on an Eaton without nitrous ?

--wes

[wesman]

Using this line of thought, a stock ported eaton will suffice for the same crowd. My ported eaton would put out 15lbs of boost without even getting hot.

I'm not sure what you are trying to get out of the test. I was pointing out what it seemed the intent was and how the results could have differed if they went all out.

You bought a Whipple, so you are obviously wanting to feel good about your purchase. They are both good blowers and both will produce in excess of 650+ rwhp with similar mods.

I have never seen a Heaton get anywhere near those #'s.

So what do want everyone to think about the Whipple? You could just save everyone a lot of time and tell us what we should think about it.

--wes

[03LightningRocks]

I was with you until you said a Heaton would produce similar results. It jsut wouldn't push that much air. You ever sees a 600 rwhp pull on an Eaton without nitrous ?

--wes

You have never seen a 600 HP pull at 15lbs of boost with a KB either. Least not on your or my trucks.

This is exactly my point. His high HP has more to do with his engine build than his blower. The reason a person get's a KB is because he wants to make 17-20lbs of boost. Not 15lbs of boost. The test was performed well within the parameters of what a ported blower will perform at.


Fake edit..... The biggest reason you haven't seen a ported eaton make 600 HP is that you haven't seen a ported eaton put to work on a built motor with stage 3 cams and a 9.5 to 1 compression ratio.

[03LightningRocks]

I'm not sure what you are trying to get out of the test. I was pointing out what it seemed the intent was and how the results could have differed if they went all out.

You bought a Whipple, so you are obviously wanting to feel good about your purchase. They are both good blowers and both will produce in excess of 650+ rwhp with similar mods.

I have never seen a Heaton get anywhere near those #'s.

So what do want everyone to think about the Whipple? You could just save everyone a lot of time and tell us what we should think about it.

--wes


Wrong again....I don't have a whipple. I am holding off to see what goes down with the KB 2.6 and the whipple 3.3.

I don't "want" anyone to think anything. I am bringing up facts about the test that was mentioned in this thread. What may be making this hard on you is that I have no emotional investment in either blower.

[BC Lightning]

Wrong again....I don't have a whipple. I am holding off to see what goes down with the KB 2.6 and the whipple 3.3.

I don't "want" anyone to think anything. I am bringing up facts about the test that was mentioned in this thread. What may be making this hard on you is that I have no emotional investment in either blower.

So what about those of us with out fully built motor; cams, heads, internals, etc (besides Mark #2 whos truck is still a freak for staying together)

I guess what I'm asking for me is Kenne Bell 2.6 or Whipple 2.3. Right now I'm not going to have a built motor, but really dont want to upgrade blowers once i dont put a built long block in it. I don't like the 2.3 whipple and there isnt a bolt on turbo kit yet.

[Mark #2]

I think that the fastest trucks this year will be Turbos.;)
But front halved, back halved, tube frame, lightened, 32 valve, Al block, 4 link, 9" rears, etc, etc, "trucks" are starting to push question is it really a Lightning anymore?
Yeah, I know VIN, I won't go there.

[03LightningRocks]

So what about those of us with out fully built motor; cams, heads, internals, etc (besides Mark #2 whos truck is still a freak for staying together)

I guess what I'm asking for me is Kenne Bell 2.6 or Whipple 2.3. Right now I'm not going to have a built motor, but really dont want to upgrade blowers once i dont put a built long block in it. I don't like the 2.3 whipple and there isnt a bolt on turbo kit yet.

Right now I am leaning towards the 2.6 KB. Hopefully it will be available as promised. The 3.3 whipple might be a good blower, but I am not holding my breath on a full out kit in the next year or so. Even if they do get it out there, they will probably want to much for it. I bet they will want 5 grand for that darned thing. The 2.6 is going to be right at 3 grand....well, unless KB changes their mind. But at 3 grand, it is in no doubt a better bang for the buck than the whipple at 3500.

If you are thinking 2.3 blowers...I like the whipple better than the KB. More power where it counts...you know...the reason you want to change your blower. Whipple is no doubt going to make more HP in the 20 something boost range. If you are thinking that 15lbs of boost is plenty for you....sh!t don't do anything. Get a good port job and hang out with the other granny drivers.

Who's building your motor and do you have any specs on it...like spring rates...CR and style cams???


Another fake edit.... One more issue. If the whipple price would get closer to the KB, I might decide to go Whipple instead of KB 2.6. I would have a whipple right now if KB hadn't dropped their price to 2599.00 that is too much spread to pay for the small gain I would get from Whipple. Especially since I already have a KB. I might go 300 or so more for a whipple 2.3. No fricking way I am paying a 1000 bucks more for a blower that is darned near the same.

[Mark #2]

So what about those of us with out fully built motor; cams, heads, internals, etc (besides Mark #2 whos truck is still a freak for staying together)

I guess what I'm asking for me is Kenne Bell 2.6 or Whipple 2.3. Right now I'm not going to have a built motor, but really dont want to upgrade blowers once i dont put a built long block in it. I don't like the 2.3 whipple and there isnt a bolt on turbo kit yet.

My truck isn't really a freak, the key is not to detonate...ever.

[BC Lightning]

no specs yet on a motor, since I'm not ready for a built motor yet. I could benefit from a blower in the next 2 months, and really like the looks of the whipple over the KB. Plus I like the rear entry of the whipple. I've still got the goal of a daily driven L in the 10's and figure I could achieve this easier with a Whipple. Once the stock motor blows up, then I'll worry about a built motor.

[Mark #2]

no specs yet on a motor, since I'm not ready for a built motor yet. I could benefit from a blower in the next 2 months, and really like the looks of the whipple over the KB. Plus I like the rear entry of the whipple. I've still got the goal of a daily driven L in the 10's and figure I could achieve this easier with a Whipple. Once the stock motor blows up, then I'll worry about a built motor.

No way 10s on a daily driver stock block.;)

[03LightningRocks]

No way 10s on a daily driver stock block.;)

I can remember when folks said this about 11's....;) .

LOL....maybe we should not allow any runs on the times list that blow up the engine.....:cool: .

[BC Lightning]

No way 10s on a daily driver stock block.;)

Didnt Frank whats his name do it, but with a turbo?

[Mark #2]

Didnt Frank whats his name do it, but with a turbo?

Yes, he did, but it was becoming a trailered truck at that point.

[Mark #2]

Just FYI, looks like the same learning curve on the Whipple as KB went through.
http://www.nloc.net/forum/showthread.php?t=119103

[Silver_2000]

Just FYI, looks like the same learning curve on the Whipple as KB went through.
http://www.nloc.net/forum/showthread.php?t=119103

Do you think that much contact at high rpm and heat levels is out of line ?

[Mark #2]

Do you think that much contact at high rpm and heat levels is out of line ?

Absolutely, any contact generates lots of metal particles that go into the combustion chambers and scratch the cylinder walls as they hang up in the compression and oil rings, again just IMHO.

[03LightningRocks]

I think it is something that is going to have to be addressed by whipple. I won't hold my breath waiting for whipple to admit it is an issue.

I don't think those rotors should be grinding against each other that way. Sometimes it doesn't pay to be the first guy with a new product.

[Silver_2000]

Absolutely, any contact generates lots of metal particles that go into the combustion chambers and scratch the cylinder walls as they hang up in the compression and oil rings, again just IMHO.
so you expect to have high compression in the blower and no contact ?

[L8 APEX]

The stock Eaton scrapes up about the same. There are paint marks on new units where they check them for clearance. Install torque, case flex etc can cause this wear. Kind of like the first batch of KB's that all locked up.

[03LightningRocks]

In the picture below, it looks alot worse than just normal break in to me. You can actually see chewed up spots on the leading edge of the rotor. That thing looks to me like it has been doing some serious scraping.

http://azsvt.com/gallery/albums/Whipple/Picture_086.sized.jpg

[Mark #2]

so you expect to have high compression in the blower and no contact ?

Yes, the first one had interference problems so I sent it back. The new one does not show any signs of interference, it has been off twice for the front drive cog and all looked perfect.

We use these: See page 3 for a description.

http://www.asecoweb.com/aseco/products/positive-displacement/docs/CycloBlower_Industrial_XP_Series.pdf