KB Install on Stock Motor

[Lyfisin]

Terry put a KB on my truck Monday. Once again, he was terrific. The care and detail he takes will keep bringing me back as long as he wants to do it. He tried putting some protective tape on the front of my truck to prevent scratching, but to my great satisfaction, it wouldn't stick... I love Zaino. :) I had an old comforter in the bed and we used that instead.

The non-stock parts on my truck are the air filter, spark plugs, 4# lower and now the KB with a 3.25" pulley. The spark plugs, NGK TR6, were changed out during the install. I don't have any numbers before the install. Just guesses, but here are the post numbers. I'm offering this up mainly to give feedback for anyone else who's considering doing it, with relatively few mods.


Here are the SAE numbers.

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/medium/Dyno_SAE_HPP_3_17_06_small.JPG

Here's the unmodified version from the same pull.

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/medium/Dyno_Actual_HPP_3_17_06_small.JPG

And lastly, the text version

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/medium/Dyno_Text_HPP_3_17_06_small.JPG

Feel free to ask any questions, but don't expect much in the way of intelligent response. My automotive knowledge is still pretty dismal, but with all of your help, I am learning.

Brook :banana:

[gbgary]

well i guess you jumped off that fence you were sitting on last time i saw you. congrats!!!!!!

[tiffo60]

nice numbers:tu: i figured the torque would have been a little more but nice none the less

[Mark #2]

Looks good, but you are starting to run out of maf, injectors, or fuel pumps over 4.8K RPM.

[WA 2 FST]

Looks good, but you are starting to run out of maf, injectors, or fuel pumps over 4.8K RPM.

I agree, but it's still plenty safe. He has stock cats, so the A/F ratio is richer than what is being shown from the meter they used. If he was spinning the thing to 6000rpm, he'd be in trouble.

I would be interested to know what kind of boost it is making now.

[Mark #2]

I agree, but it's still plenty safe. He has stock cats, so the A/F ratio is richer than what is being shown from the meter they used. If he was spinning the thing to 6000rpm, he'd be in trouble.

I would be interested to know what kind of boost it is making now.
Should be about 14(my spreadsheet shows 13.8) with that set up.

[WA 2 FST]

Should be about 14(my spreadsheet shows 13.8) with that set up.

Cool... given that Brook's combo is as close to identical as mine as just about possible (given two different trucks/owners) with the _exception_ of the KB vs. stock Eaton, his setup makes 44rwhp/15rwtq PEAK more than mine. Obviously, his carries the power out farther in the powerband where it really matters (4000-5500rpm), so the difference is really even greater than those #s show. The peak TQ isn't as big of a difference as one might figure it would be, but mine makes peak TQ ~3600rpm and his doesn't make the # til ~4000rpm, where the Eaton is already falling off.

I'm also running ~13-14psi in my combo. The only other difference b/w our trucks other than the blower is that I have an LFP heat exchanger and he doesn't.

Brook, if you ever verify the boost, let us know.

If he could bump the boost to ~16psi, he'd be over 450rwhp for sure.

[BC Lightning]

Better get some slicks for the next time we go to the track!! Congrats on the KB, as Rob and Mark have proved you can run the KB safe on stock block, plus I know you wont have the pedel to the floor all the time.

[my2002lightning]

Brook,

Congrats on the KB! :tu: Just curious, why did you make the leap to KB v. a ported Eaton? Efficiency?

What's the seat-of-the-pants before and after driving experience like? Do you have any before dyno sheets to compare the numbers?

Very good.

Ronald

[ThunderBolt]

Congrats on the KB. I installed mine last weekend. Here are the results w/ a 6# lower and 3.25 upper.
This is my 93 octane street tune with 14* of timing. There is a day and night difference in performance.
It pulls like there's no tomorrow.:tu:

BTW, I'm seeing 14.5#'s on the low-end and 17.5#'s on the top end of third.

http://www.svt-enthusiast.com/albums/Ronsalbum1/HPIM1134.sized.jpg

[Mark #2]

Congrats on the KB. I installed mine last weekend. Here are the results w/ a 6# lower and 3.25 upper.
This is my 93 octane street tune with 14* of timing. There is a day and night difference in performance.
It pulls like there's no tomorrow.:tu:

BTW, I'm seeing 14.5#'s on the low-end and 17.5#'s on the top end of third.

http://www.svt-enthusiast.com/albums/Ronsalbum1/HPIM1134.sized.jpg

Stock block, stock exhaust? Curves should cross at 5252, so I do not understand the graph directly above.
(horsepower = rpm x torque / 5252).

[ThunderBolt]

Stock block and full bassani exhaust w/ off-road mids.

[WA 2 FST]

Thunderbolt,

Have you upgraded the fuel system/MAF? I'm interested like Mark to see what your other mods are besides 6# lower and 3.25" upper.

17.5psi... wow.

[ThunderBolt]

Thunderbolt,

Have you upgraded the fuel system/MAF? I'm interested like Mark to see what your other mods are besides 6# lower and 3.25" upper.

17.5psi... wow.

255 walbro, 60# injectors and SCT BA2400 Maf.

[Mark #2]

255 walbro, 60# injectors and SCT BA2400 Maf.

See my post a couple up, your dyno chart does not look correct to me.

You have a similar set up to me, but that much boost on that pulley combination seems odd also.
Mine is at 15.5 on that pulley combination. This pulley combination is what I run on the street.

[Lyfisin]

well i guess you jumped off that fence you were sitting on last time i saw you.
Yep, with both feet.


Looks good, but you are starting to run out of maf, injectors, or fuel pumps over 4.8K RPM.
I'm looking at the graphs. You're saying this because the hp starts to flatten out around that point? I know we looked at the MAF while it was being tuned. The highest reading I believe was 999 and I know the top is 1023.

I would be interested to know what kind of boost it is making now.
Me too. I'm working on getting a meter. We didn't have one available unfortunately. There are lots to choose from. So many it's hard to know where to start.

Better get some slicks for the next time we go to the track!! Congrats on the KB, as Rob and Mark have proved you can run the KB safe on stock block, plus I know you wont have the pedel to the floor all the time.

I know. :( It was already spinning pretty badly when we were at Temple. I'm really looking forward to my next time out though. I wasn't too worried about the reliability of the KB with the stock motor as long as we didn't go crazy. It's doubtful I'll ever get close to what Mark and Rob have done. Their skills and knowledge have undoubtably already saved them their motor whereas my lack of skill would probably have blown it. My goal was to be around 450 and I'm right where I want to be.

Just curious, why did you make the leap to KB v. a ported Eaton? Efficiency?
What's the seat-of-the-pants before and after driving experience like? Do you have any before dyno sheets to compare the numbers?
I don't have any before dyno numbers. The chip/pulley/filter combo was something Terry already had good data on and since those were my only mods, I believed the tune to be safe. Plus as Michael said, I don't have my pedal on the floor all the time, so I wasn't worried about breaking because of a bad tune. I'm really not very aggressive with my truck considering what it is. Anyway, I never saw a need to dyno it.
I'm not sure I can easily explain the KB vs ported Eaton question. There's really a lot of variables that came into play there. It's more of a Humperdinks or FireWater answer. It's definately a noticable improvement. I really haven't gotten on it that much, but when I have, I really notice how much quicker the speed increases. You're just around the corner. Let's go for a spin and you can experience it first hand.

Congrats on the KB. I installed mine last weekend.
Thanks and grats to you as well.

[WA 2 FST]

See my post a couple up, your dyno chart does not look correct to me.

You have a similar set up to me, but that much boost on that pulley combination seems odd also.
Mine is at 15.5 on that pulley combination.

The chart is ok, Mark. HP/TQ _would_ cross at 5252, but the TQ and HP scales are different... which is throwing it off from a visual perspective.

One thing I noticed is that the numbers are using the Standard (STD) correction factor vs. SAE. As most of us know, STD will show higher #s than SAE.

[WA 2 FST]

I'm looking at the graphs. You're saying this because the hp starts to flatten out around that point? I know we looked at the MAF while it was being tuned. The highest reading I believe was 999 and I know the top is 1023.



He's saying that b/c of the slightly lean upswing on the A/F graph. This in indicative of one of the three issues (or potentially all three) that Mark pointed out. Knowing the MAF is almost pegged, that's my bet, but as others have pointed out... start making much more power than you are, and a bigger fuel pump and injectors become necessary.

Where you are now, my honest opinion is that you are fine. It is starting to get leaner than where it is below 4800, but its not dangerously lean.

[Mark #2]

The chart is ok, Mark. HP/TQ _would_ cross at 5252, but the TQ and HP scales are different... which is throwing it off from a visual perspective.

One thing I noticed is that the numbers are using the Standard (STD) correction factor vs. SAE. As most of us know, STD will show higher #s than SAE.

Great observations, Thanks.
I was a little out of my engineer scrutinizing data mode in my current TGIF Miller time mode.:D

[WA 2 FST]

Great observations, Thanks.
I was a little out of my engineer scrutinizing data mode in my current TGIF Miller time mode.:D

:tu: :beer:

[ThunderBolt]

The chart is ok, Mark. HP/TQ _would_ cross at 5252, but the TQ and HP scales are different... which is throwing it off from a visual perspective.

Exactly.
I'm throwing on a single blade TB and e-fans next week. Hopefully that will unleash a few more ponys.

[Mark #2]

Exactly.
I'm throwing on a single blade TB and e-fans next week. Hopefully that will unleash a few more ponys.

I already admitted my error.;)

Do you have Cats in the exhaust?
Boost seems high as I mentioned before.
Single blade and fans should help a little.

Stock upper plenum?
Thinking of changing it?
If so, what would you go with?

[ThunderBolt]

I already admitted my error.;)

Do you have Cats in the exhaust?
Boost seems high as I mentioned before.
Single blade and fans should help a little.

Stock upper plenum?
Thinking of changing it?
If so, what would you go with?

Off road mids = no cats.;)

I'm running a home honed/polished plenum. I think this should do for the time being.
I might switch to the C&L unit at some point.

http://www.svt-enthusiast.com/modules/gallery/album218

[Mark #2]

Off road mids = no cats.;)

I'm running a home honed/polished plenum. I think this should do for the time being.
I might switch to the C&L unit at some point.

http://www.svt-enthusiast.com/modules/gallery/album218

Wow, that looks really nice.
Guess I should pull mine off and get the grinder going.

Still don't understand 17.5 on your pulley set up though especially with no cats, no offense intended.

[ThunderBolt]

You will only see max boost at mid-top end of third while underload.
Im seeing 15#'s through second gear. The boost will increase to 17.5#'s
once she goes into third...and it's all pull at that point.:tu:

[Mark #2]

You will only see max boost at mid-top end of third while underload.
Im seeing 15#'s through second gear. The boost will increase to 17.5#'s
once she goes into third...and it's all pull at that point.:tu:

Agree, I have the same set up on my truck for the street.
I'll do a run with OD off and check max boost and post, probably not this weekend though with the weather.

[ThunderBolt]

Agree, I have the same set up on my truck for the street.
I'll do a run with OD off and check max boost and post, probably not this weekend though with the weather.
:tu:

lyfisin, Good luck with it!

[L8 APEX]

The adaptive strategy is leaning the tune over time. It is seeking 12.0 and will correct over time to reach it. If he reset his battery it would run 11.4-6 where we set it on the original tune. I guess I could program the base fuel table to seek 11.5 or so at WOT. The truck still had fuel and MAF range but the MAF was close at 999 counts at 5500 which is more than what it will see on the final tune of 5390 rpm shifts. We used 10% road load so the tune should be a lot more accurate that tuning on a free spooling dyno wheel. The hard copys of the original tuning session show a good A/F curve, the learning is altering that a touch. But I am not afraid of 12.0 on a street tune.

[my2002lightning]

Brook,

I might have to take you up on that this weekend. :tu:

You'll have to check out the ride quality of my L when I get the suspension / braking setup in place, too.

Ronald



It's definately a noticable improvement. I really haven't gotten on it that much, but when I have, I really notice how much quicker the speed increases. You're just around the corner. Let's go for a spin and you can experience it first hand.

[WA 2 FST]

The adaptive strategy is leaning the tune over time. It is seeking 12.0 and will correct over time to reach it. If he reset his battery it would run 11.4-6 where we set it on the original tune. I guess I could program the base fuel table to seek 11.5 or so at WOT. The truck still had fuel and MAF range but the MAF was close at 999 counts at 5500 which is more than what it will see on the final tune of 5390 rpm shifts. We used 10% road load so the tune should be a lot more accurate that tuning on a free spooling dyno wheel. The hard copys of the original tuning session show a good A/F curve, the learning is altering that a touch. But I am not afraid of 12.0 on a street tune.

I figured in _real life_ when the trans is shifting at 5300 or so, it would be in better shape than what was shown on the dyno where you can see they ran it out farther up in the rpms.

The only thing that would concern me (not with Brook's truck) in general would be excessive boost with 12.0:1 A/F ratio, or really excessive boost period. I realize we're running 8.4:1 CR, but the static CR under boost is way higher and at some point it gets so high that 93 octane won't suffice, unless the timing is so retarded that it would be better to run less boost and more timing as far as power production is concerned.

I haven't done the math, but finding that max boost level is important (to me, at least). Of course this can change a bit when you run a more efficient blower which could effectively lower (slightly) the bsfc of the motor itself since you're no longer flooding the motor with fuel to act as a cooling agent in the combustion chamber.

Great job, Terry. I know Brook is happy with the way the truck runs!

[Sixpipes]

Dang Brook, for someone that started off a little slow with the mods, you sure are picking up speed. :D I'll be joining you before LightningFest. :tu:

[StormShadow]

Dang Brook, for someone that started off a little slow with the mods, you sure are picking up speed. :D I'll be joining you before LightningFest. :tu:

This is awesome! KB's for everyone! :banana: We will need to host a grudge match with HALO this year some time.:evil

[True Blue Aggie]

Anyone here got some extra cash....?!

Did everyone get a raise or something? :( I need to start buying stock in KB..

[Lyfisin]

Dang Brook, for someone that started off a little slow with the mods, you sure are picking up speed.

I'm still about one a year I think. They are getting more expensive however. I'm horrible about keeping records, and too lazy to look up the ones I have, but this is kinda the way I remember it.

02 PR Mild Exhaust
03 Chip/Pulley/Filter
04 Roush Suspension
05 Hood / Clear Corners / Hotchkis Sway Bars
06 KB and changed chip to XCal2

However, it's early in 06. There's a lot of year left. :tongue:

[StormShadow]

Hey Brooks you should head out to Ennis today and see what kind of times you run with your new KB. Michael and Wes will be there and I'm not sure who else. Probably the last chance for good racing weather for a few months (meaning cool air). If not today then try to go to Ennis next Friday night. A few of us will be there.

[Lyfisin]

Maybe someone can help me out here and explain Ennis so I have a better feeling about it.

It's over an hour away for me, so I kind of have a 'tude about it before even jumping in the L to head down that way. I hear it's always crowded and also expensive, relative to other tracks.

I guess I'm just not a racer. Otherwise, these petty griefs wouldn't be an issue.

To make Friday night, I have to take care of a tire issue decide it's worth dealing with the traffic all the way to and through the big D.

[WA 2 FST]

Brook,

My friend... you're right. You're not a racer. :) Seriously, I don't go down there anymore either. Back in the early-mid 90s I raced down there at least 2x a month. I'd load up the slicks in the hatch of my Mustang and make the drive.

However, there is far more traffic now. Also in the late 90s a HUGE ricer contingent started showing up on Friday nights. At one point I distinctly remember having to jack up and _move_ several ricers cars that had parked in my pit spot (along with all my other friends). We had to leave early and couldn't get to any of our tools. So we jacked the cars up and rolled them into the open parking lot. The attitude down there has changed dramatically in the last 10 years.

Also, you used to be able to get in as many passes as you want. Now there are nights when you might get 2-3 max. That's a lot of time for just a little "bang".

I prefer Hallsville and will be more than happy to drive 2 hrs (one way) to race there (when it re-opens).

[StormShadow]

This past Friday you could have as many passes as you would like. I dont' know if it was because it was soo cold or what but the place was relatively empty. I plan on going back again this Friday. Another thing about Ennis is that the track prep is 10x better than Hallsville. Just look at the '60 that Thogg posted up for Friday and look at the '60's that Michael posted up for yesterday.