Gasahol

[Beaudee]

I was wondering if anyone has run the 10% gasahol in their L..Does this stuff require a different tune Terry if you drop in on this thread.Any ill effects?Seems this is going to be the new fuel.They say its cheaper to mix at the refinerys and is supposed to drop fuel prices,and be safer to ground soil.I still see fuel going up and up.I havent seen any pumps in North Texas with this stuff yet,anyone here seen any or tried it.

[WA 2 FST]

I heard the reason for the price increases here in DFW over and above the national average is due to the use of Ethanol in the gasoline. I don't know if this is what is now commonly referred to as "gasahol". ???

My fear is that all these b/s additives in the gasoline will, in effect, lower the octane of the fuel, thus either 1) requiring more conservative tunes or 2) nuking motors. The real problem is that we may start getting different stuff in our fuels... which will lead to a "bad tankful" one week and a higher grade the next week.

MTBE was supposed to be cleaner for the air, and yet it contaminated the ground water something fierce, so the US Govt finally pulled that. MTBE was not good for minimum octane requirements.

[L8 APEX]

I talked to one guy today and he said alcohol burns slower and it should run on the same tune, time will tell us more.

[WA 2 FST]

alchohol does burn slower, which is why a lot of people use alky injection in high boost/compression applications. It helps in the combustion process and allows you to run more timing.

I am no chemist, so I have no idea what ethanol is, or exactly what properties is shares with alchohol and its byproducts.

[cpeapea]

they should still have an octane rating on the pump, if the octane is the same im sure it would run fine on the same tune. also ethanol has a lower heat of vaporization point than methanol or gas which will help cool the air charge. might be good for power i spose. my buddies chevelle with a 454 and a littlefield 8-71 blower runs methanol, the blower sweats condensation when it runs dues to the alcohol fuel.

[dboat]

alchohol does burn slower, which is why a lot of people use alky injection in high boost/compression applications. It helps in the combustion process and allows you to run more timing.

I am no chemist, so I have no idea what ethanol is, or exactly what properties is shares with alchohol and its byproducts.

ethanol is alcohol.. (now this is the guess) I believe its grain(usually corn) alcohol vs wood alcohol(MTBE)..
Dana

[Beaudee]

[QUOTE=WA 2 FST]I heard the reason for the price increases here in DFW over and above the national average is due to the use of Ethanol in the gasoline. I don't know if this is what is now commonly referred to as "gasahol". ???
Yaaah i ment Ethanol,but way back when they called it gasahol.

[WA 2 FST]

ethanol is alcohol.. (now this is the guess) I believe its grain(usually corn) alcohol vs wood alcohol(MTBE)..
Dana

I believe your correct. I just wasn't sure.

[RUNVS]

From the HALO website.......

The key thing to understand about ethanol is that it is soluble in water. This means that water and ethanol mix freely, whereas water and gasoline do not mix - they are insoluble, meaning that gasoline and water remain in separate 'phases' when they are in contact with each other - including in the UST's beneath your favorite gas station. The gas typically floats on top of any water and sludge accumulated in the bottom of the tanks. (This is also why you may have heard it's never a good idea to buy your gasoline at a station when the fuel supply truck is there filling up the tanks. The high speed pumping of the fresh gas into the UST stirs up the bottom water and sediment which can then end up in your gas tank.)

Right now, the industry seems fairly united in their recognition that as little as one-half of one percent (0.5%) of water in a UST will cause "serious phase separation with the ethanol gasoline blend". Folks, that's not much water. And whereas that water used to sit idly by in the bottom of a UST, it's now going to mix freely with the ethanol gasoline on its way to your gas tank and motor!

Virtually all UST's are known to contain various amounts of water, either from unintentional punctures, rust-outs or leaking valves or from intentional means. Did you know that most tanks contain a 'spill bucket' around the filler neck of the tank, right beneath the ground level manhole cover? When it rains, the spill bucket catches any rain run-off that drops down from the store's tarmac. When the guy shows up with the big gasoline truck to refill the UST's, guess where the water in the spill bucket goes? That's right - he lifts the bucket an inch or two and the valve in the bottom of the bucket drops the water into the UST! This hasn't been a problem with non-RFG gasoline, but because of ethanol's solubility with water, this is a HUGE problem with RFG gas. Needless to say, the truck drivers are being advised to change their spill bucket procedures with the new ethanol gasoline. Let's hope they actually do it.

Depending on their financial resources, gas stations are going to handle 'the water problem' in different ways. The major suppliers and their 'company' stores (typically identifiable by their more elaborate landscaping and overall cleanliness) already have tank cleaning companies going around to their locations to clean and remove the sludge and 'water bottoms' from their tanks. This is the best solution but, obviously, it's also the most expensive. However, from their own past experience, they also want to be sure they minimize the number of claims they get from car owners whose vehicles have quit running because of a tank of 'bad gas'.

For those gas suppliers and stations with more limited resources, the second best alternative is to install new disposable filters on their fuel dispensers. While most already have some sort of filtration on their systems, the ethanol gas requires a different kind of filter and they will have to be changed much more frequently at first. Will they actually do that or will they try to save a little money? (I doubt that trying to change the fuel line filter in your own car more often will have any effect, since it's already much coarser than the 10 micron filters being mentioned for gas stations).

Now we come to the 'Mom and Pop' stores. What, if anything, are they going to do (or can they afford to do) about their water problem? Your guess is as good as mine but over the next several months, and for my own piece of mind, I'll be avoiding those locations. This may not be the best time to be buying from the absolutely lowest-priced gas station, particularly if it's a small, unbranded station. (Remember that this whole issue only involves those counties listed at the beginning of the piece).

Several other points to be made about ethanol gasoline:

The industry does not yet seem to have a clear picture of how much your gas mileage will drop using ethanol gasoline - but they are clear on one thing - your gas mileage will drop. Figures have been cited from as little as a 5% reduction in gas mileage to as high as 20-25%. I guess we'll all have to wait and see.

The consequences of getting a bad tank of gas in your own car can vary significantly, from having to change the spark plugs and fuel filter, to the repair and/or replacement of multi-hundred dollar items such as fouled fuel injectors, air mass meter, catalytic converter, to a complete engine rebuild for such things as burned pistons, piston rings, or valves.

The only 'anecdotal' piece of information I have received about ethanol gasoline, i.e., I have not yet been able to confirm this through any type of 'official' source, is that ethanol gasoline is going to be a problem for all 2-cycle gas engines such as string trimmers, leaf blowers, as well as some jet-skis, 4-wheelers, lawn mowers and motorcycles. Any engine where 2-cycle oil must be mixed with the gasoline, either in advance or 'on-the-fly' while the engine is running, is apparently going to have significant problems with ethanol gasoline. Most of the indications I've gotten are that the engines won't run at all! I just don't know that for certain right now so this is just a warning of a potential problem.

[WA 2 FST]

Thanks for posting that, Ken. Very good read.

Guess my leaf blower and weedeater won't be running much longer. :tongue:

[99WhiteBeast]

filled up with 93 Octane at Chevron the other day and all pumps were labeled " gas may contain 10% ethanol"

[tliss]

I saw the same thing last time I filled up. And it's supposed to be cheaper, huh? If it is, none of us have seen it.

However, one gas station seems to be a lot cheaper than the rest here in McK. The Shell on 75/380 was 13 cents cheaper than the Chevron and Texaco stations right across the street. We filled up my wife's vehicle at $2.76/gal when Chevron and Texaco were $2.89. Maybe Shell has got everything worked out and Chevron is still trying to get it? Who knows. If it's going to be cheaper overall I can't wait to see it....$70 fill ups on the Lightning and $55 fill ups on the other vehicles really sucks.

And it will truly suck if my lawnmower and weedwacker don't work anymore because of this new gas. I hope the oil companies have plans to help us retrofit that stuff, because I sure as hell don't want to have to go out and buy all new gas-powered tools....

Tom

[tiffo60]

i was in oklahoma tuesday night 91 octane was 2.75, thats almost worth a 91 octane tune

[tliss]

i was in oklahoma tuesday night 91 octane was 2.75, thats almost worth a 91 octane tune

91 is the minimum suggested rating for these trucks anyway, so you should be OK with that. Many places around the country can't get anything higher than 91.

Tom

[QDRHRSE]

All we have in CA is 91. Both my L and Cobra have 91 octane street tunes.

[Mark #2]

I saw the same thing last time I filled up. And it's supposed to be cheaper, huh? If it is, none of us have seen it.

However, one gas station seems to be a lot cheaper than the rest here in McK. The Shell on 75/380 was 13 cents cheaper than the Chevron and Texaco stations right across the street. We filled up my wife's vehicle at $2.76/gal when Chevron and Texaco were $2.89. Maybe Shell has got everything worked out and Chevron is still trying to get it? Who knows. If it's going to be cheaper overall I can't wait to see it....$70 fill ups on the Lightning and $55 fill ups on the other vehicles really sucks.

And it will truly suck if my lawn mower and weedwacker don't work anymore because of this new gas. I hope the oil companies have plans to help us retrofit that stuff, because I sure as hell don't want to have to go out and buy all new gas-powered tools....

Tom

Back in the 80s this was a huge problem for Porsche's fuel systems. The German rubber hoses dissolved in alcohol. Many fires.
Last weekend on new gas I had a bitch of a time keeping the weed eater running(couldn't achieve F1 spark rates);)

[dboat]

Back in the 80s this was a huge problem for Porsche's fuel systems. The German rubber hoses dissolved in alcohol. Many fires.
Last weekend on new gas I had a bitch of a time keeping the weed eater running(couldn't achieve F1 spark rates);)

darned those F1 guys anyway... but I run a two cycle trimmer and mower.. it better not screw them up..

although, it could give me the reason I want to buy a riding lawnmower and a 4 cycle head unit for the trimmer.

[wesman]

darned those F1 guys anyway... but I run a two cycle trimmer and mower.. it better not screw them up..

although, it could give me the reason I want to buy a riding lawnmower and a 4 cycle head unit for the trimmer.


My weedeater and blower are 2 cycle.....so is my damn boat :hammer::hammer::hammer:

It's gonna royally tick me off if my boat becomes worthless suddenly because the govt has a hair up their arse!!

Surely there is a way around this.....if not, almost every quad owner, off road bike owner, jetski owner etc have just lost thousands of dollars worth of property.

--wes

[QDRHRSE]

I have an easy solution. Buy race gas. I know that @ 6$- $10 a gallon it's a drain on the wallet but what else are we gonna do? I have 2 dirtbikes, 1 of which is a 2 stroke, and I try to run 50/50 (pump/race fuel) anyway.

[rickgig]

They say its cheaper to mix at the refinerys and is supposed to drop fuel prices,and be safer to ground soil.I still see fuel going up and up.I havent seen any pumps in North Texas with this stuff yet,anyone here seen any or tried it.

Correction on the mix at the refineries... it cannot be mixed and pumped through the existing pipelines. The mixture will destroy the pipeline due to then blend being corrosive. If you recall... back when this stuff first happened, carburetors and fuel systems were failing due to the o-rings and other soft parts deteriorating. This was mentioned earlier in this thread.

This is the reason for the pricing being so high today in the DFW area and elsewhere... Tankers have been pulled from the normal routes to bring the ethanol to the local storage facilities where it is pumped into holding tanks... after that it gets mixed with gasoline at the time the product is placed into the tanker for delivery.

Gas mileage will suffer about 25% if you run the 15/85 blend that Kroger is going to carry this summer (15% gasoline/85% ethanol). I doubt if most of us will run that flavor.

Then there is also the issue of how many units of energy “in” to “produce” a unit of energy. With ethanol the ratio is very low which means the cost savings just isn't there yet with corn. There are other products that have a much higher yield than corn but the cost to grow it is significantly more. Brazil has been running on the 15/85 blend for over 20 years (pretty sure on that) and have really become the leader in this.

I guess the cool thing is that the source is renewable in months as opposed to millions of years.

I also understand that oxygenation additives will no longer be req'd as of May 1st this year however since DFW has a pollution issue.... current plans are that ethanol will remain in our fuel.

Next...

[WA 2 FST]

I have an easy solution. Buy race gas. I know that @ 6$- $10 a gallon it's a drain on the wallet but what else are we gonna do? I have 2 dirtbikes, 1 of which is a 2 stroke, and I try to run 50/50 (pump/race fuel) anyway.

The interesting thing is that race fuel at $7/gal is "cheap" now compared to a few years ago when it was still $6-7, but 93 was ~$1.29.

[QDRHRSE]

That's a good point. If things escalate in the middle east it might cost the same to fill up with regular gas and race fuel. Race fuel prices will not increase like regular gas due to the fact that it is made differently and has less restrictions on formulation etc. I know that I'm dreaming...but it could happen....maybe....under the right set of circumstances.

[dboat]

That's a good point. If things escalate in the middle east it might cost the same to fill up with regular gas and race fuel. Race fuel prices will not increase like regular gas due to the fact that it is made differently and has less restrictions on formulation etc. I know that I'm dreaming...but it could happen....maybe....under the right set of circumstances.

Tom, I am betting, based on that last sentence, that you live in Kalifornia. :evil

Dana

[wesman]

The interesting thing is that race fuel at $7/gal is "cheap" now compared to a few years ago when it was still $6-7, but 93 was ~$1.29.

When's the last time you bought race gas ? That's been going up too .

Screw it....I think it should turn into Waterworld around here....suvival of the fittest:throw:

--wes

[RUNVS]

It's time for the U.S to drill in the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge. Way past time, if you ask me.

[WA 2 FST]

Alaskan, and everywhere else, too. There is plenty of oil under US soil. The problem that I believe we've talked about here is refining capacity that is patheticly low. With the cost to ramp that up, the reality is that its still cheaper to buy from OPEC.

I think we deserve war reparations from Iraq in the form of free oil. :tu:

[dboat]

Alaskan, and everywhere else, too. There is plenty of oil under US soil. The problem that I believe we've talked about here is refining capacity that is patheticly low. With the cost to ramp that up, the reality is that its still cheaper to buy from OPEC.

I think we deserve war reparations from Iraq in the form of free oil. :tu:

+1

[Silver_2000]

My mileage is off over 2 mpg on the highway

THis is crazy - if the MPG goes down 10% then people will be burning 10% more gas to go the same distance - How is that going to help the emissions ?

[wesman]

Alaskan, and everywhere else, too. There is plenty of oil under US soil. The problem that I believe we've talked about here is refining capacity that is patheticly low. With the cost to ramp that up, the reality is that its still cheaper to buy from OPEC.

I think we deserve war reparations from Iraq in the form of free oil. :tu:

Yea, word is that there is 200+ years of oil shale in the mid-west. It of course depends on whom you ask, some say 20 yrs, some say 200. One of the biggest things is cost to extract/refine, they said it wasn't logical due to the cheap price to get oil elsewhere (this was back when crude was ~$20 a barrel), since it's over 3x that price now perhaps it's time to look at these options again.

--wes

[RUNVS]

There's enough oil under Alaska to fill our nation's needs for the next 40-50 years. We need to go get it. In the meantime, alternative fuels and energy sources could be developed.

[L8 APEX]

The E85 isn't for lack of oil it is for emissions. Alcohol is very clean burning even if you burn a lot more of it. I wouldn't think they would make a new formula that the worlds balance of engines would not run on.. These are interesting times...

[Tex Arcana]

ethanol is alcohol.. (now this is the guess) I believe its grain(usually corn) alcohol vs wood alcohol(MTBE)..
Dana
Methanol ain't MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether). THe problem with MTBE is, it was touted as an "oxygenator" (like ethanol is supposed to be as well) that aids cleaner combustion of gasoline. Problem is, that's a lie: MTBE actually made combustion worse, worsened fuel economy, and made more pollution (not to mention the groundwater contamination--note that Lake Lewisville is now no longer allowed to be used as a drinking water source, because of MTBE contamination).

A few years ago, I picked up a tank of E85 in Kansas in my '97 F150, and I got both better power and mpg out of it.


I heard the reason for the price increases here in DFW over and above the national average is due to the use of Ethanol in the gasoline. I don't know if this is what is now commonly referred to as "gasahol". ???

My fear is that all these b/s additives in the gasoline will, in effect, lower the octane of the fuel, thus either 1) requiring more conservative tunes or 2) nuking motors. The real problem is that we may start getting different stuff in our fuels... which will lead to a "bad tankful" one week and a higher grade the next week.

MTBE was supposed to be cleaner for the air, and yet it contaminated the ground water something fierce, so the US Govt finally pulled that. MTBE was not good for minimum octane requirements.


Ethanol, in pure form, is about 110 octane; the tradeoff is that it takes about 15% more ethanol to get the same amount of energy as from gasoline (stochiometric ratio for ethanol is about 10:1, where gas is 14:1). Adding ethanol to gasoline will benefit in that it will help increase the octane rating, or at least not negatively affect it. As an additive, it's not really a "bs" additive, it does work: the problem arises in the handling and storage of the ethanol (read below).


From the HALO website.......

(snip)


Not a bad analysis, but he missed on the mpg: ethanol will improve efficiency overall. The 5-25% reduction he's talking about is the EPA's "correcting" the present method of determining mpg.


Correction on the mix at the refineries... it cannot be mixed and pumped through the existing pipelines. The mixture will destroy the pipeline due to then blend being corrosive. If you recall... back when this stuff first happened, carburetors and fuel systems were failing due to the o-rings and other soft parts deteriorating. This was mentioned earlier in this thread.

This is the reason for the pricing being so high today in the DFW area and elsewhere... Tankers have been pulled from the normal routes to bring the ethanol to the local storage facilities where it is pumped into holding tanks... after that it gets mixed with gasoline at the time the product is placed into the tanker for delivery.

Gas mileage will suffer about 25% if you run the 15/85 blend that Kroger is going to carry this summer (15% gasoline/85% ethanol). I doubt if most of us will run that flavor.

Then there is also the issue of how many units of energy “in” to “produce” a unit of energy. With ethanol the ratio is very low which means the cost savings just isn't there yet with corn. There are other products that have a much higher yield than corn but the cost to grow it is significantly more. Brazil has been running on the 15/85 blend for over 20 years (pretty sure on that) and have really become the leader in this.

I guess the cool thing is that the source is renewable in months as opposed to millions of years.

I also understand that oxygenation additives will no longer be req'd as of May 1st this year however since DFW has a pollution issue.... current plans are that ethanol will remain in our fuel.

Next...

Correction: ethanol/gas mix won't destroy the pipelines, but it will pick up too much moisture content from the pipes and such. Also, Brazil has been running pure ethanol for decades as well.


It's time for the U.S to drill in the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge. Way past time, if you ask me.


:nono: we need to KEEP our oil for as long as possible!! There's a reason it's called a "reserve"! :tu:


Alaskan, and everywhere else, too. There is plenty of oil under US soil. The problem that I believe we've talked about here is refining capacity that is patheticly low. With the cost to ramp that up, the reality is that its still cheaper to buy from OPEC.

I think we deserve war reparations from Iraq in the form of free oil. :tu:

Yah, they need more refineries, 'cept the megacorp's don't want to pay for it--I mean, these higher prices mean bigger profits--what was it last year, $100 billion NET profit?? Yeah, fat chance of seeing more refineries.

Oh, btw: that little "action" in Iraq *is* an oil-war--but WE will never see the benefit of it. :flaming:


My mileage is off over 2 mpg on the highway

THis is crazy - if the MPG goes down 10% then people will be burning 10% more gas to go the same distance - How is that going to help the emissions ?

I'm surprised... that's what MTBE was doing, killing mpg and burning less efficiently. :hammer: Maybe the MTBE isn't completely out yet. :confused:


Yea, word is that there is 200+ years of oil shale in the mid-west. It of course depends on whom you ask, some say 20 yrs, some say 200. One of the biggest things is cost to extract/refine, they said it wasn't logical due to the cheap price to get oil elsewhere (this was back when crude was ~$20 a barrel), since it's over 3x that price now perhaps it's time to look at these options again.

--wes

Extraction is the issue, and still is: takes a sh!tload of money to get a little oil, and it's not even decent quality. I don't think it's 200+ years worth--hell, the shale in Canada is much more extensive, and they only think it's in the millions of barrels, which isn't 200 years worth.


There's enough oil under Alaska to fill our nation's needs for the next 40-50 years. We need to go get it. In the meantime, alternative fuels and energy sources could be developed.


Not that much, it's in the high-millions of barrels, but that's it. The Angolan fields off the coast of Africa they're tapping now are in the billions of barrels, and even they won't give you more than 50 years worth of oil. Don't forget that petroleum is also used to make 95% of all plastics and most other products, besides fuels and lubricants. As for closer-to-home sources, Venezuela, Mexico, and the rest of South America have untapped fields that will make the Middle East look like Jed Clampett. And we can't forget the untapped fields off the coast of California, where the granolies won't let us drill. :nono:


The E85 isn't for lack of oil it is for emissions. Alcohol is very clean burning even if you burn a lot more of it. I wouldn't think they would make a new formula that the worlds balance of engines would not run on.. These are interesting times...

Si, senor... it's like the old days when unleasded was being phased in: the right ratio of leaded to unleaded would yield a fuel blend that had a higher octane rating than the two separate. Same thing with ethanol blends: you'll get a higher octane rating, meaning more timing, meaning more power on a leaner burn, meaning better mpg. At least, at first blush it seems that should be how it should work. :confused:

[dboat]

There's enough oil under Alaska to fill our nation's needs for the next 40-50 years. We need to go get it. In the meantime, alternative fuels and energy sources could be developed.

Even after reading Tex's rant.. I agree with this one.. I do believe that we are missing the "window of opportunity" to really have a true energy policy in this country that makes sense. And I mean make sense in the form of cheap energy for everyone here.. We can grow enough corn, wood, etc.. to get us a decent blend of ethanol and gas. As a country, we can put the resources in to get biodiesel where it needs to be, really beging to optimize solar energy, do more nuclear, open up some of the other oil fields (Kalifornia will just have to put up with it), make sure all new construction brings all occupied spaces(commercial and residential) up to a reasonable level of insulation so that consumption goes down. Get on with building some refineries on the closed military bases. etc etc etc.. However, some of what we are experiencing is the "cheap" gas we had not that long ago (compared to the other items we were buying) and the proliferation of (IMHO) huge SUV's that were gas hogs. Heck, our L's were gas misers when compared to most of them.. If they want big and powerful, just look at the blown diesels to get them what they want. Also, its been proven that the automakers can make these things a lot lighter, hence more perf and lower mileage. Lastly, look at all the aftermarket addons that increase perf and economy...

I happen to support this administration, but this one area where they havent shown as much leadership as they should have.

I will say this, if gas prices were to drop a $1 per gallon by election day, the Republicans could be a shoe in..

Dana

[Silver_2000]

Even after reading Tex's rant.. I agree with this one.. I do believe that we are missing the "window of opportunity" to really have a true energy policy in this country that makes sense. And I mean make sense in the form of cheap energy for everyone here.. We can grow enough corn, wood, etc.. to get us a decent blend of ethanol and gas. As a country, we can put the resources in to get biodiesel where it needs to be, really beging to optimize solar energy, do more nuclear, open up some of the other oil fields (Kalifornia will just have to put up with it), make sure all new construction brings all occupied spaces(commercial and residential) up to a reasonable level of insulation so that consumption goes down. Get on with building some refineries on the closed military bases. etc etc etc.. However, some of what we are experiencing is the "cheap" gas we had not that long ago (compared to the other items we were buying) and the proliferation of (IMHO) huge SUV's that were gas hogs. Heck, our L's were gas misers when compared to most of them.. If they want big and powerful, just look at the blown diesels to get them what they want. Also, its been proven that the automakers can make these things a lot lighter, hence more perf and lower mileage. Lastly, look at all the aftermarket addons that increase perf and economy...

I happen to support this administration, but this one area where they havent shown as much leadership as they should have.

I will say this, if gas prices were to drop a $1 per gallon by election day, the Republicans could be a shoe in..

Dana

While its renewable I read somewhere that we could never grow enough corn to make a significant dent in gas usage

[dboat]

While its renewable I read somewhere that we could never grow enough corn to make a significant dent in gas usage

Doug, that is a question that I dont have an answer to. However, since we pay some farmers to NOT grow some crops, since we pay cattlemen "at times" to throw away their milk (to keep up milk prices). One would have to wonder.
Part of it too has to do with how wood fiber product is disposed of as well. Since it is used to make a form of ethanol too.. supposedly, a higher energy content version (according to today's Erie Times News).
Pennsylvania is poised to announce (same source as prior sentence) that it is about to announce signing an agreement to build an ethanol plant that will make Pa the largest ethanol producer west of the Mississippi.
If there was more money in growing corn than some other crops, would we see more farmers growing corn? who knows (economics tells me yes)
The main reason ethanol hasnt become popular here is strictly due to economics, petroleum was just cheaper and the mechanism for creating and distributing gas has been in place for years.
The wood that goes into the making of floors could be re-routed and we could start using bamboo floors that renew themselves in a small portion of the time that it takes to grow hickory, walnut, oak, etc...

There are truly a lot of variables... what would happen, for example, if the govt just said that in three years, all oil used in cars, etc.. had to be synthetic rather than dino? look at the gallons of savings there, plus the incremental increase in gas mileage..

Dana

[skalywags]

what is the problem with the 2-strokes running on this fuel? Is it becasue the oil doesn't mix well with it? I have Yamaha 2-stroke I ide most weekends, and know I'll eventually end up with ths mixture, but may not even realize it at the time, becasue I either got it from someone else, or got it from a station on teh way, and maybe that's all they had, or didn't see the ethanol sign. I don't wan to blow my bike up, and I don't really want to buy race gas at $7 +, either.

I'm just trying to see is anyone has seen something that confirms this 2-stroke theory.

[WA 2 FST]

Oh, btw: that little "action" in Iraq *is* an oil-war--but WE will never see the benefit of it. :flaming:



I'm not going to ruin this and turn it into another political thread, but I also disagree with the above liberal/leftist propaganda. Sure, there are potential "by-products" of any war (history tells us this), but inferring that is the primary reason for the war is error. I'm not going to spend the time debating that here, however. Have a good one. :)

[QDRHRSE]

When's the last time you bought race gas ? That's been going up too .

Screw it....I think it should turn into Waterworld around here....suvival of the fittest:throw:

--wes


I bought Trick 101 octane for a little under $6.00 a gallon right out the pump on Friday.

[wesman]

I bought Trick 101 octane for a little under $6.00 a gallon right out the pump on Friday.

Maybe they sell race gas in Cali cheaper than here in Tx.....it's gone up a bit as well. I recall not long ago it was $4.50 a gallon for 104 octane and it's damn near dobule that now.

--wes

[Tex Arcana]

I will say this, [color=red]WHEN]/color]gas prices drop a $1 per gallon by election day, the Republicans could be a shoe in..

Dana

Fixed. And you konw it'll happen. :nono:

I forgot about the nuclear bit: if you could get the damned companies that build them to stop cutting corners, and the damned government oversight people to stop letting them get away with it, nuclear would be a fantastic alternative. Someone needs to slap the EPA too, and let us build more hydroelectric dams, to.

[Tex Arcana]

While its renewable I read somewhere that we could never grow enough corn to make a significant dent in gas usage
I don't know where you read it, but I read it here (http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Index.html). I don't agree with it, however, because everyone seems to forget the government pays farmers to plow under crops all the time. Given that, and fallow fields that aren't being used because the market won't support it, I think there's alot more available for use as a corn source. If Canada and Mexico got into the act, too, then you could see enough to supply ethanol alone--mix it with gas, and you can stretch the gasoline significantly.

Makes ya wish they dind't dump all that "waste" gasoline and diesel fuel way back when, doesn't it?? :(

[Tex Arcana]

Doug, that is a question that I dont have an answer to. However, since we pay some farmers to NOT grow some crops, since we pay cattlemen "at times" to throw away their milk (to keep up milk prices). One would have to wonder.
Part of it too has to do with how wood fiber product is disposed of as well. Since it is used to make a form of ethanol too.. supposedly, a higher energy content version (according to today's Erie Times News).
Pennsylvania is poised to announce (same source as prior sentence) that it is about to announce signing an agreement to build an ethanol plant that will make Pa the largest ethanol producer west of the Mississippi.
If there was more money in growing corn than some other crops, would we see more farmers growing corn? who knows (economics tells me yes)
The main reason ethanol hasnt become popular here is strictly due to economics, petroleum was just cheaper and the mechanism for creating and distributing gas has been in place for years.
The wood that goes into the making of floors could be re-routed and we could start using bamboo floors that renew themselves in a small portion of the time that it takes to grow hickory, walnut, oak, etc...

There are truly a lot of variables... what would happen, for example, if the govt just said that in three years, all oil used in cars, etc.. had to be synthetic rather than dino? look at the gallons of savings there, plus the incremental increase in gas mileage..

Dana


Wood used for flooring isn't a bad thing. Wood used for veneers and decorative items isn't bad, either. Wood used for framing is, imho, a waste of something beautiful, when it can be replaced with other materials, steel being one of them.

When it comes to fuel generation (and you're thinking methanol here, Dana), don't waste good wood for that: use the waste items that are associated with making the beautiful stuff--sawdust, bark, etc. And use grass clippings --can you see a new recycling can, for just grass clippings and tree branches, for methanol production?

Yeah, plenty of ways to recycle, if you can get people on board with it.

[Tex Arcana]

I'm not going to ruin this and turn it into another political thread, but I also disagree with the above liberal/leftist propaganda. Sure, there are potential "by-products" of any war (history tells us this), but inferring that is the primary reason for the war is error. I'm not going to spend the time debating that here, however. Have a good one. :)

Nor am I, but I am going to mention this: it's possible that you're duped by the "conservative/right-ist propaganda". Pretty much every war in human history was driven by one group wanting to take what the other group had--"armed robbery writ large". THis one is no different.

Have a good one yourself. ;)

[WA 2 FST]

Nor am I, but I am going to mention this: it's possible that you're duped by the "conservative/right-ist propaganda". Pretty much every war in human history was driven by one group wanting to take what the other group had--"armed robbery writ large". THis one is no different.

Have a good one yourself. ;)

I would never be so naive as to say there aren't certain "by-products" of war. But the darn liberal/socialist/commies walking aroun with their pants down in office for 8 years prior were _the_ primary reason the war on terror hit our shores.

I'd rather see it fought on another continent...even if there are some alterior motives involved.

If you remember I said above that I believe we _should_ get some payback for the Iraqi's freedom by seeing some of their most prolific natural resource make it over to the US ... at a significantly discounted price.

[Tex Arcana]

I would never be so naive as to say there aren't certain "by-products" of war. But the darn liberal/socialist/commies walking aroun with their pants down in office for 8 years prior were _the_ primary reason the war on terror hit our shores.

I'd rather see it fought on another continent...even if there are some alterior motives involved.

If you remember I said above that I believe we _should_ get some payback for the Iraqi's freedom by seeing some of their most prolific natural resource make it over to the US ... at a significantly discounted price.

I'm with you, in your previous post: let's not turn this thread into a political bashfest. If you want to discuss this, let's move it to Off Topic or something. We definitely disagree, and tho I respect you very much, I sure as hell ain't gonna roll over for ya to rub my belly on this either. ;)

back on topic: I think we won't see any benefit form Iraq, there really isn't as much oil there as people seem to think. Offshore drilling along Africa, the East and West coasts, and western Pacific. Pretty much every offshore area will carry alot of oil, it just needs to be found.

Oh, and let's not forget CHINA: they're sitting on alot of oil, that they want to sell us. Bigtime. They would LOVE to replace OPEC as our major supplier. First WalMart products; then WalMart gasoline--ALL MADE IN CHINA!! :hammer: Dammit.. kiss our economy goodbye!! :flaming:

[RUNVS]

Nor am I, but I am going to mention this: it's possible that you're duped by the "conservative/right-ist propaganda". Pretty much every war in human history was driven by one group wanting to take what the other group had--"armed robbery writ large". THis one is no different.

Have a good one yourself. ;)

If this war is a "war for oil", then why haven't we started taking any of it yet? After all, in every battle where occupation was the objective, the spoils of war have gone to the victor.

I believe that securing the Iraqi oil supply was a factor in going to war there, but it was in no way the major factor. The "war for oil" mantra is simply a product of the anti-Bush crowd.

[Tex Arcana]

If this war is a "war for oil", then why haven't we started taking any of it yet? After all, in every battle where occupation was the objective, the spoils of war have gone to the victor.

I believe that securing the Iraqi oil supply was a factor in going to war there, but it was in no way the major factor. The "war for oil" mantra is simply a product of the anti-Bush crowd.

Come on, don't derail this thread. If you want to discuss this particular subject, start one in "Off Topic", and we can sling mud there.:tu:

[skalywags]

what is the problem with the 2-strokes running on this fuel? Is it becasue the oil doesn't mix well with it? I have Yamaha 2-stroke I ide most weekends, and know I'll eventually end up with ths mixture, but may not even realize it at the time, becasue I either got it from someone else, or got it from a station on teh way, and maybe that's all they had, or didn't see the ethanol sign. I don't wan to blow my bike up, and I don't really want to buy race gas at $7 +, either.

I'm just trying to see is anyone has seen something that confirms this 2-stroke theory.
anyone actually know? I have been looking - seems most data a have read does not support this.

[Tex Arcana]

anyone actually know? I have been looking - seems most data a have read does not support this.

I ahven't head anything either... :confused:

[wesman]

Seems that we have a little longer before having to worry about it too much

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060425/D8H79PMOH.html

--wes

[Mark #2]

Seems that we have a little longer before having to worry about it too much

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060425/D8H79PMOH.html

--wes
But we already have it according to the pump labels.

My two stroke dilemma that I posted was not gas related, I think.

Rebuilt the carb, all is fine now, fuel pump and other gaskets were deteriorated, probably just age, but maybe not, time will tell.