Lack of traction bars = more prone to breakage?

[WA 2 FST]

That's my question. I have seen this discussed a little on another forum.

If I were to always keep my truck on drag radials (no hard launches on slicks), why would adding more power increase the chances of a shattered rear diff if I didn't add traction bars? Seems to me like the tires would be the "fuse" in the circuit anyway.

It also seems like traction bars, while certainly aiding in the ability to launch hard on slicks, would also create more stress on driveline parts due to the fact that you are transferring the power more efficiently to the rear tires.

I realize that you can dial in proper pinion angle better with traction bars, but I still would think that if you're just running a sticky radial and launching ~1500rpm (or as high as the stock stall converter would allow) that you would have no issues with breaking driveline parts.

Just curious. My truck is lowered with the Roush suspension.

[wesman]

You'd be in more trouble running slicks, on a very sticky track. With the drag radials, they'll let go before any hard parts do.

--wes

[dboat]

That's my question. I have seen this discussed a little on another forum.

If I were to always keep my truck on drag radials (no hard launches on slicks), why would adding more power increase the chances of a shattered rear diff if I didn't add traction bars? Seems to me like the tires would be the "fuse" in the circuit anyway.

It also seems like traction bars, while certainly aiding in the ability to launch hard on slicks, would also create more stress on driveline parts due to the fact that you are transferring the power more efficiently to the rear tires.

I realize that you can dial in proper pinion angle better with traction bars, but I still would think that if you're just running a sticky radial and launching ~1500rpm (or as high as the stock stall converter would allow) that you would have no issues with breaking driveline parts.

Just curious. My truck is lowered with the Roush suspension.

Good Question..

[QDRHRSE]

There's no way you're your're going to hurt the rear end. I just had mine rebuilt and I saw how massive it is.....no wonder they don't give any of the local L guys a hard time about not having long wheel studs at the track. It's gotta be the shocks and/or driveshaft that get damaged. DR's should be ok. As long as you're not hooking "dead nuts" and you have just a little wheel spin you should be fine.

[Beaudee]

Dont mean to change your thread,but i am looking for 2 rear tires right now.I plan on ordering/installing them this week.I was wondering who makes a 305 or wider tire for stock rims with better wear than the Nitto 305 DR's,which i believe are 100 tread wear.Looking to go to discount tire in lewisville.I like the look of wider tires in the back,but want more bang for the buck.My other question is, is the 305 nittos width really noticable compared to the 295.Other than that good ? Wes.I would have to say the weak link on the L. drive train is the drive shaft and transmission, also the posi lock system on the rear end.I have seen some L,s doing a 1 wheel tire heat up @ the track.I remember Sixpipes had this problem on a thread a while back.:tu:

[WA 2 FST]

Beau,

If you ever get over to the east side of the northern suburbs, let me know. I have 305 Nittos on the back and 295 Nittos on the front. I think it looks great. It is a slight, but noticeable difference. I am running DRs on the rear, though, so I cannot suggest a 305 sized tire that you're looking for.

[QDRHRSE]

It takes a lot of abuse to wear the stock posi out. My truck has over 100k on it. I've had to replace or rebuild everything. I just did the rear end and @ 108k the clutches in the posi still had material on them. I wouldn't call the factory traclock a weak link. Other than breaking a U joint the only other big concern is damaging a shock. Wheelhop can jar a shock bad enough to bend the shaft. I've done that a few times in Mustangs. Considering how much tq an L has I'm surprised that I haven't read more about that happening on the boards. Do you get any wheelhop?

[WA 2 FST]

I don't get much wheelhop, but I'm also only at 393rwhp/481rwtq. If that were to go up by 100/70, I'm not sure what would happen. ;)

[03LightningRocks]

The drive shaft is what you need to worry about. The bars help to prevent the pinion from popping too far out of line and snapping the drive shaft. I haven't heard of this happening other than on slicks or maybe the ET stret type tires. Like someone posted above, unless your running true slicks, your tires will break loose before any hard parts do.

[BigBobsL]

It all depends upon bite.

Personally saw an L with drag radials making good 60's snap the drive shaft at the track and the shock set off both air bags. If you look at end of drive shaft you will likely find where the u-joint cups are being crushed as the u-joint is binding during launch when the rear rotates upward. That is the protection that traction bars, additional half leaf or spring clamps on front half of spring provide. Damage to L's with 99 - 02 leaf springs is a near certainty at track if you start hooking, this may not be as much a problem with the stiffer 03 & 04 springs, not sure since most now routinely add protection.

[WA 2 FST]

I've got the Roush suspension which has new leaf springs. I'm not sure if this will help or hurt.

I am trying to evaluate a lot of things before I potentially take a big leap forward. This is a toy for me, but a vehicle that I will put 6-7k miles on a year, and I want it streetable. I do not want to "take all the fun out of it", by "overmodding" the truck. E.G... it will _never_ have a cage in it, no matter how quick it might go. Also, I take it to the track once a year, so its not something I put lots of 1/4 mile passes on.

As crazy as this sounds, I'm not that concerned with getting every last ounce of ET out of it. I would prefer something that kicks tail from 30-120. Having a truck that could run 12.0s @ 118-120mph on radials would be sweet. I'm a long way off from that now (12.8 @ 109 in decent air), of course.

[wesman]

I don't get much wheelhop, but I'm also only at 393rwhp/481rwtq. If that were to go up by 100/70, I'm not sure what would happen. ;)

I'm right at 150rw above both of those #'s and I don't really get wheelhop at all. It just breaks the DR's loose instead. I've never jsut dropped the hammer in street form either, but I don't gather that you do that either.

--wes

[Beaudee]

It takes a lot of abuse to wear the stock posi out. My truck has over 100k on it. I've had to replace or rebuild everything. I just did the rear end and @ 108k the clutches in the posi still had material on them. I wouldn't call the factory traclock a weak link. Other than breaking a U joint the only other big concern is damaging a shock. Wheelhop can jar a shock bad enough to bend the shaft. I've done that a few times in Mustangs. Considering how much tq an L has I'm surprised that I haven't read more about that happening on the boards. Do you get any wheelhop?
http://www.talonclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10819&highlight=rear+end

[WA 2 FST]

I'm right at 150rw above both of those #'s and I don't really get wheelhop at all. It just breaks the DR's loose instead. I've never jsut dropped the hammer in street form either, but I don't gather that you do that either.

--wes

Not so much in 1st gear, but I do roll into it hard in 1st and in 2nd. Even with the limited power I have, any amount of torque braking from a standstill will light the tires hard. However, the DRs do great from a roll. I know they wouldn't do _as well_ with more power, but there isn't an alternative for fun street use.

Wes... what do you figure your ET/MPH will be once you get to the track again and have it all sorted out?

[wesman]

Well, we've actually (we've meaning Terry :) ) fixed a few issues we were having last time I went in March and ran the 11.8@115.

I have the 30" slicks now (up from 26's) and that should save me the extra shift at the end of the track so a bit of ET and a little more MPH there.

I was also having a problem on the 1-2 shift that was slowing me down, but that's all fixed now (thanks to Terry :) )

With just those changes I'm fairly confident in decent weather that I'll pick up several .10'ths and a few MPH. I'm looking for low low 11's in the 120mph range with the current setup.

--wes

[Tex Arcana]

That's my question. I have seen this discussed a little on another forum.

If I were to always keep my truck on drag radials (no hard launches on slicks), why would adding more power increase the chances of a shattered rear diff if I didn't add traction bars? Seems to me like the tires would be the "fuse" in the circuit anyway.

It also seems like traction bars, while certainly aiding in the ability to launch hard on slicks, would also create more stress on driveline parts due to the fact that you are transferring the power more efficiently to the rear tires.

I realize that you can dial in proper pinion angle better with traction bars, but I still would think that if you're just running a sticky radial and launching ~1500rpm (or as high as the stock stall converter would allow) that you would have no issues with breaking driveline parts.

Just curious. My truck is lowered with the Roush suspension.


Wheelhop, Wes. Had a friend back in the day, who had a '65 Fastback Mustang, with the I6, with a "3-bbl" induction setup (yes, 3bbl: three singles on a homemade intake, the center one was the "primary" and idle, the other two setup as "secondaries", opening at larger throttle openings). He was doing a burnout one day after a meeting, get some wheelhop, and broke his ring gear into about 10 pieces.

The most important thing a traction bar will do is prevent wheelhop by controlling axle wrap. If you go the long Rancho-style bars, you will get SOME downward "push" on the wheels, but it won't be enough to cause any problems, not with your power levels.

The other importnat thing is to make sure your pinion angle is correct, becasue if it's off you set up an imbalanced torque couple that will tear up your ujoints and your pinion gear.

Good luck.

edit: see this thread: http://www.nloc.net/vbforum/showthread.php?t=122425 It's long, but there's aLOT of good information about traction bars and four link rear suspensions. The Cliff's Notes, in case it's too long for you, is that the long traction bars (and the forward-facing upper trac bars) will combine with the leaf spring to act like a four-link; and if lines drawn thru the leaf pivot points and the locating links on the trac bars intersect, you will get a downward force developing under acceleration (the geometry is called "anti-squat"). Lots of diagrams that illustrate the whole thing. Check it out. :tu:

[BigBobsL]

If you want to check if you have problems, inspect the drive shaft that surrounds the rear u-joint caps. If the rear is rotating too far, you will see damage in that area. That portion of the driveshaft and u-joint tends to get crushed and the binding will break the joint also. Any damge r sign of contact is a warning.

[02BOLT]

It all depends upon bite.

Personally saw an L with drag radials making good 60's snap the drive shaft at the track and the shock set off both air bags. If you look at end of drive shaft you will likely find where the u-joint cups are being crushed as the u-joint is binding during launch when the rear rotates upward. That is the protection that traction bars, additional half leaf or spring clamps on front half of spring provide. Damage to L's with 99 - 02 leaf springs is a near certainty at track if you start hooking, this may not be as much a problem with the stiffer 03 & 04 springs, not sure since most now routinely add protection.

Bob, did the truck you saw do this have a converter(stall)?

Wes(WA 2 FST), at your current power level, on Drag Radials and without a stall, you should be O.K. As Bob mentioned, the wink link in the driveline is the rear U-joint, not the diff(that sucker isn't going anywhere). Not to dispute Bob's account, but on a DR equipped truck, hooking that hard is more the exception than the rule....generally speaking.

Now, if you plan on running slicks AND a stall, then T-bars are a definite necessity, IMO. It's not a bad idea to run T-bars with slicks alone(without a stall), especially on a lowered truck, as the pinion angle on lowered trucks is more severe upon launch(as opposed to stock suspension or shackles only). However, as I mentioned before, on DR's, you should be fine.

Also taking into consideration, no more often than you run your truck; T-bars are not really worth the headache, due to the ground clearance issues the brackets present, and the clanking/popping noises you have to put up with.

I'm not sure exactly how low the Roush kit is, but if the Metco Uppers will fit, then that is the ticket. I know Ron ran them on his truck with success. The 58" "Lift" bars are a tad aggravating for the aforementioned reasons, and the Truck Trax "slapper" bars are ABSOLUTELY USELESS! Hope this helps.

[WA 2 FST]

Also taking into consideration, no more often than you run your truck; T-bars are not really worth the headache, due to the ground clearance issues the brackets present, and the clanking/popping noises you have to put up with.



Exactly. I guess I do not want the aggravation of them, especially given that most of my street encounters are roll-ons, and I make it to the track very rarely...and when I do I'll be on drag radials.

At my current power level I'm not worried at all. What I'm trying to determine is if I'm ok on DRs at 500+rwhp. :)

[02BOLT]

Exactly. I guess I do not want the aggravation of them, especially given that most of my street encounters are roll-ons, and I make it to the track very rarely...and when I do I'll be on drag radials.

At my current power level I'm not worried at all. What I'm trying to determine is if I'm ok on DRs at 500+rwhp. :)

I would be SHOCKED if you could get DR's to dead hook on a 500 rwhp Lightning. When my truck was making 530 RWHP, it was making 620 lb/ft of RWTQ. I just don't see DR's dead hooking an L with that kind of torque, especially not on one with the lower/tighter Roush suspension underneath it.

At that power level however, some sort of traction device is a good idea, as it will enable the truck to better transfer the weight rearward(as you know). I still maintain that you should be fine on DR's at 500 RWHP from a breakage standpoint, but...from an all around performance standpoint; on a 500 RWHP L, the pros of T-bars outweigh the cons. IMO.

[Mark #2]

I would be SHOCKED if you could get DR's to dead hook on a 500 rwhp Lightning. When my truck was making 530 RWHP, it was making 620 lb/ft of RWTQ. I just don't see DR's dead hooking an L with that kind of torque, especially not on one with the lower/tighter Roush suspension underneath it.

At that power level however, some sort of traction device is a good idea, as it will enable the truck to better transfer the weight rearward(as you know). I still maintain that you should be fine on DR's at 500 RWHP from a breakage standpoint, but...from an all around performance standpoint; on a 500 RWHP L, the pros of T-bars outweigh the cons. IMO.

Sixpipes and I have had the Metco lowers on a Roush for years, there are no cons. No noise, no clearence issues, nothing.

[02BOLT]

Sixpipes and I have had the Metco lowers on a Roush for years, there are no cons. No noise, no clearence issues, nothing.

Great news then! I had a different lowering kit on my truck, and the Metco's wouldn't work, due to it being too low, so I was forced to run the Johnny Lightning 58" "Lift Bars". I just wasn't sure if the Metco's would work with the Roush kit or not. Appreciate it Mark.:tu:

[Mark #2]

Great news then! I had a different lowering kit on my truck, and the Metco's wouldn't work, due to it being too low, so I was forced to run the Johnny Lightning 58" "Lift Bars". I just wasn't sure if the Metco's would work with the Roush kit or not. Appreciate it Mark.:tu:

Metco uppers will not work on a Roush either.
You could have run the lowers IMHO.

[WA 2 FST]

Great info guys. I have heard of "Metcos", but don't even know how they are different from the typical t-bars I'm used to seeing on these trucks and other solid-axle vehicles I've seen/raced.

I'm just filing all this away. If I do something "radical", then the goal is 12.0 @ 120. That may be impossible. The truck will be driven 99.9% of the time on the street vs. strip anyway. But I like to be _capable_ of great times on street tires. Basically a 30-120mph 4800lb terror. ;)

[Mark #2]

Great info guys. I have heard of "Metcos", but don't even know how they are different from the typical t-bars I'm used to seeing on these trucks and other solid-axle vehicles I've seen/raced.

I'm just filing all this away. If I do something "radical", then the goal is 12.0 @ 120. That may be impossible. The truck will be driven 99.9% of the time on the street vs. strip anyway. But I like to be _capable_ of great times on street tires. Basically a 30-120mph 4800lb terror. ;)

The Metco lowers are great for street use, alot of the road course guys use them.
I recommend that you install them immediately:D , you will like way the rear feels without the spring wrap, and they do not increase the rear spring rate.

[dboat]

The Metco lowers are great for street use, alot of the road course guys use them.
I recommend that you install them immediately:D , you will like way the rear feels without the spring wrap, and they do not increase the rear spring rate.

Got me some coming from Terry:beer:
Dana

[PUMP]

I found the best comparrison of the various types of ladder, 4-link, traction, torque, et. al. at this 4-wheeler link.
http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/susp/axlewrap/

[BigBobsL]

One local truck (Big Mike - Knockout) was getting low 11's with 1.60 60's with DR and CalTracs. DRs can get good numbers.

Have seen damaged and broken drive shafts on more than a dozen trucks without bars and yes some were drag radial and others slicks. Saw one destroy the drive shaft with Metco uppers and slicks, go figure.

If you are hooking well enough to get 1.8s (in 99-02L) you are looking for a new drive shaft if you do not at least clamp front half of springs. Actually spring clamps are a simple, near no cost solution for what you are doing. Good pupose-built spring clamps can be bought at some AutoZone stores. Many in HALO,including Andre, survived for a long time with 1.6 - 1.7s (and early high 11 sec NO2 runs) without damage with just a simple $3 muffler clamps on the front half of both spring eyes!

For a long time I used an aftermarket (Hellco 500 (?) 1/2 leaf that I bought for ~$35 with a converter and getting 1.6's and mid-low 12's on slicks without problem and it did very well at Ford ontrack road course and autocross events and pulling loaded car trailer with 2" shackles. The helper is designed for use on back half of springs, but for our purposes works great on the front half where we need it. Leaf is held in place by two beefy clamps and preload is adjustable. It will soon be going on my 12 sec tow L in place of the present slappers for a ride and handling improvement.

The only negative about either of these two cheap options is that they do not add traction, just axle control. The slappers and Caltracs add traction.

Neither of these options hurt ride significantly and actually enhance handling.

[Tex Arcana]

One local truck (Big Mike - Knockout) was getting low 11's with 1.60 60's with DR and CalTracs. DRs can get good numbers.

Have seen damaged and broken drive shafts on more than a dozen trucks without bars and yes some were drag radial and others slicks. Saw one destroy the drive shaft with Metco uppers and slicks, go figure.

If you are hooking well enough to get 1.8s (in 99-02L) you are looking for a new drive shaft if you do not at least clamp front half of springs. Actually spring clamps are a simple, near no cost solution for what you are doing. Good pupose-built spring clamps can be bought at some AutoZone stores. Many in HALO,including Andre, survived for a long time with 1.6 - 1.7s (and early high 11 sec NO2 runs) without damage with just a simple $3 muffler clamps on the front half of both spring eyes!

For a long time I used an aftermarket (Hellco 500 (?) 1/2 leaf that I bought for ~$35 with a converter and getting 1.6's and mid-low 12's on slicks without problem and it did very well at Ford ontrack road course and autocross events and pulling loaded car trailer with 2" shackles. The helper is designed for use on back half of springs, but for our purposes works great on the front half where we need it. Leaf is held in place by two beefy clamps and preload is adjustable. It will soon be going on my 12 sec tow L in place of the present slappers for a ride and handling improvement.

The only negative about either of these two cheap options is that they do not add traction, just axle control. The slappers and Caltracs add traction.

Neither of these options hurt ride significantly and actually enhance handling.

Pics of clamps, stat. :D

[Mark #2]

Pics of clamps, stat. :D
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=400330+302828&autoview=sku

FYI, Roush suspension comes clamped, not with these but something similar.

[Tex Arcana]

That was a good link, shows some pretty good diagrams and whatnot.

I noticed something very interesting yesterday: the concrete truck that was here delivering concrete for the piers had a pair of "traction bars" on the FRONT leaf suspension. VERY interesting indeed--I have pics, but Monica has her camera, and I'll have to post 'em when she gets back. The links were very heavy (likely solid steel), and hanging below the leafs, running from the bottom of the axle tube to a bracket that was actually an extension of the leaf bracket (hanger), making the bar the same length as the half of the leaf, and iirc it was parallel.

Food for thought for sure.

[Mark #2]

That was a good link, shows some pretty good diagrams and whatnot.

I noticed something very interesting yesterday: the concrete truck that was here delivering concrete for the piers had a pair of "traction bars" on the FRONT leaf suspension. VERY interesting indeed--I have pics, but Monica has her camera, and I'll have to post 'em when she gets back. The links were very heavy (likely solid steel), and hanging below the leafs, running from the bottom of the axle tube to a bracket that was actually an extension of the leaf bracket (hanger), making the bar the same length as the half of the leaf, and iirc it was parallel.

Food for thought for sure.
Kind of like this:)
http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/race_prep/suspension/traction_bars.htm

[02BOLT]

Metco uppers will not work on a Roush either.
You could have run the lowers IMHO.

You may not remember this, but at one of the TALON meetings at Humperdinks(either Nov-Dec of '03), I was complaining to Dennis about clearance issues with the "Lift" bars' and their propensity to clank on the tailpipes. You went over and looked at my truck to see if you thought the Metco's would work. Upon your examination, you didn't believe they would. My truck was pretty much slammed though.

I didn't half-ass much on that truck, but the lowering kit was less than desirable. If I had it to do over again, I'd have run the Roush or Hotchkis systems, due to the simple fact, that they're specifically engineered for the L's. She looked nice though.;)

Wes, go for the Metco's bro!:tu:

[WA 2 FST]

Could someone post some pics of the Metco lowers? Sounds like a very viable option for those of us with Roush suspension kits.

Nevermind... I see they are on Skelton's website. So they are just shorter than those long 58+"ers.

[Mark #2]

You may not remember this, but at one of the TALON meetings at Humperdinks(either Nov-Dec of '03), I was complaining to Dennis about clearance issues with the "Lift" bars' and their propensity to clank on the tailpipes. You went over and looked at my truck to see if you thought the Metco's would work. Upon your examination, you didn't believe they would. My truck was pretty much slammed though.

I didn't half-ass much on that truck, but the lowering kit was less than desirable. If I had it to do over again, I'd have run the Roush or Hotchkis systems, due to the simple fact, that they're specifically engineered for the L's. She looked nice though.;)

Wes, go for the Metco's bro!:tu:
Yes I do remember that, you had the Bassani on correct? I think that was the issue...with the exhaust, not the "lowness"

[BigBobsL]

Sorry, since it had been a few years since I originally bought my helper springs, I had the name wrong, they are actually Hellwig 550.

http://www.suspensionconnection.com/cgi-bin/suscon/550DV.html#ITEMIMG

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hellwig-550-EZ-550-Helper-Spring-Ford-Ranger-1983-2006_W0QQitemZ8072830825QQcategoryZ33584QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

They do not show an application for our trucks because they will not fit the rear of springs, but work better for our purposes on the front half of spring,

[Tex Arcana]

Kind of like this:)
http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/race_prep/suspension/traction_bars.htm
sweet, he's updated the page.

Nice read. If you look at the pic of his setup
http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/race_prep/suspension/images/hi_res_left_rear.jpg,
you can see how the angle between the metcos and the leafs narrows considerably toward the front. That'll give it some very nice antisquat characteristics, but it might bind in cornering--I say "might", because I"m not sure how a flexible upper link (the leaf) figures into this--it might alleviate the binding some.

I think, playing it safe, going with either a true parallel link (for wrap control only), or a mild bar angle to minimize bind, would be best. I'm still churning it over in my head, tho. :confused:

fake edit: looking at that pic longer, one has to remember that the line drawn thru the front spring eye and the rear shackle-to-FRAME eye is the suspension line considered in the geometry calculations; SO, that angle is even steeper.

The more I think about it, the more I think a longer bar might be a good. Still cogitating over it, tho.

[BC Lightning]

Wes, go for the Metco's bro!:tu:

+1 Have the lowers on mine and love them!!! I like them way better than the Lakewoods I had, or the 58" bars too.

[QDRHRSE]

My Metco uppers make no noise and have no clearance issues. I hook pretty good relative to the other L's I race with.

[WA 2 FST]

My Metco uppers make no noise and have no clearance issues.

I don't think I can run the uppers with my Roush suspension (although on my '04 the rear sits up higher than an '01-02 truck with the Roush).