Stock truck amp draw ?

[Silver_2000]

Anyone with a truck that has ZERO electrcal mods ( stereo, efans, amp, alarm , etc etc ) know what the stock trucks amp draw is just sitting idle ?

After 4 or 5 days sitting mine is DEAD as a doornail ... 2 times in a row

I hooked up my amp meter and Im getting 0.2 amps

any ideas ?

I also found out that my 25 year old jumper cables are showing thier age - so I got some new super high test cables out of the deal ...

[TXLIGHTNING]

Mine is stock but im at work. I will check what mine says at idle when I get home, around 7:20pm CST.:tu:

[SILVER2000SVT]

I'm not stock, but I can tell you that 0.2 amps seems high. On a stock truck it should be in the 0.01-0.02 range. Are you checking after the PCM goes into hibertation? about 20-40min or so after everything is closed and turned off...THat could be a source of a problem too.

I had a problem with mine running down every 4-5 days a while back because I used to leave the radar detector turned on. It also had a current draw of around what you are seeing.

[Silver_2000]

I pulled all the fuses in the box in the cab and nothing changed

Im NOT sure that it went in to hibernation though ...
I disconnected the amp and tonneau so I know its not that. Im wondering if it could be the ford Sat unit ...

[Mark #2]

Anyone with a truck that has ZERO electrcal mods ( stereo, efans, amp, alarm , etc etc ) know what the stock trucks amp draw is just sitting idle ?

After 4 or 5 days sitting mine is DEAD as a doornail ... 2 times in a row

I hooked up my amp meter and Im getting 0.2 amps

any ideas ?

I also found out that my 25 year old jumper cables are showing thier age - so I got some new super high test cables out of the deal ...

A car battery has ~100 amp hours IIRC so .2 x 24hours x 5 days is 24 so it should be okay.
Battery issue IMHO.

[SILVER2000SVT]

Don't know what the factory battery is, but I looked up my yellow top optima (which is the biggest one they make) and it has 75 Amp Hours of energy storage. That's going to be more than the factory battery offers. For starting purposes you can only drain it down to 50% or so before it can't handle a heavy load. If your factory battery has only has 50 Ah of energy and you use 25 it seems very likely that you would see some problems.

[Silver_2000]

A car battery has ~100 amp hours IIRC so .2 x 24hours x 5 days is 24 so it should be okay.
Battery issue IMHO.

I agree - Ford refuses to replace it "since it tests out ok "
The green dot is gone
I may just go to Costco and get an optima or somethig today
Would still love to know what stock draw is
Doug

[Mark #2]

I agree - Ford refuses to replace it "since it tests out ok "
The green dot is gone
I may just go to Costco and get an optima or somethig today
Would still love to know what stock draw is
Doug

I am pretty close to stock electrically, just fans, I will check mine tonight.

[Tex Arcana]

OKay, this is bizzare, because mine's been sitting for well over 5 or 6 days at a stretch, with the FACTORY battery (yes, the one that it came with in '01), and haven't had a problem yet (knock on wood). Hell, when I was in LousyAnna, it would sit for WEEKS on end, and start right up.

What I know about this: the PCM is set up to shut off current draws that it detects that are still active after the key is removed from the truck, or the key is in the "off " position; this means the cab light, underhood light, headlights, parking lamps, and anything plugged into the power points that's drawing current after you leave the vehicle. Hell, I had this with the '97 F150, too.

However, in Doug's case, I'm thinking the battery is gone, esp. if the green dot is gone. That, in and of itself, should be the clue.

If I were you, Doug, I would haul that thing over to an auto parts store, or a separate shop, OUT OF THE TRUCK, and get it tested as-is, when found dead. Batteries can and do fail prematurely, especially when the heat is as fericious as it is this summer (and it's been over 20 years since the last majorly-bad one).

[SILVER2000SVT]

The battery could be bad now after being discharged, one total discharge will often take out a standard automotive battery. I would figure out what that current draw for the source of your problem. The other thing to consider is maybe you aren't seeing the green dot because the battery has never fully recovered from being discharged, keep in mind that it takes several hours to fully charge a battery. A 20-30 min drive won't even come close to re-charging a dead battery, it just puts enough charge in it to crank the next time.

What you are describing is pretty much the exact situation I had a couple of years ago with the radar detector, down to the same current draw and time period until discharged. I thought there's no way that little bit of current draw could be drawing down the battery in just 4or5 days. I finally decided it was a weak battery and I replaced it with an Optima yellow top. I thought the problem went away but it didn't, it just took a little longer to discharge, almost 7-10 days instead. I realized I was fighting a losing battle and finally just started unplugging my radar detector and haven't had the problem since.

[Tex Arcana]

The battery could be bad now after being discharged, one total discharge will often take out a standard automotive battery. I would figure out what that current draw for the source of your problem. The other thing to consider is maybe you aren't seeing the green dot because the battery has never fully recovered from being discharged, keep in mind that it takes several hours to fully charge a battery. A 20-30 min drive won't even come close to re-charging a dead battery, it just puts enough charge in it to crank the next time.

What you are describing is pretty much the exact situation I had a couple of years ago with the radar detector, down to the same current draw and time period until discharged. I thought there's no way that little bit of current draw could be drawing down the battery in just 4or5 days. I finally decided it was a weak battery and I replaced it with an Optima yellow top. I thought the problem went away but it didn't, it just took a little longer to discharge, almost 7-10 days instead. I realized I was fighting a losing battle and finally just started unplugging my radar detector and haven't had the problem since.


Thing is, if you look in the book, a feature of pretty much all Ford products is the ability of the PCM to shut off current draws to save the battery. So if a radar detector or something else is drawing it down, then there's something wrong with the PCM that's preventing it from saving the battery.

Of course, a truly *BAD* battery will not activate the PCM, and still de over time (especially if it shorts out internally, which can happen with a battery that's on its last legs, becasue material collects at the bottom and on the plates, and eventually contacts and shorts the plates).

The more I think about it, the more I think this is the problem, that the battery isn't being cycled enough to fully charge and clear some of the junk off the plates--tho, once that starts, you can usually count the days 'til it dies. :(

[Silver_2000]

found some threads about the GEM module that controls the battery saver relay going bad. I still need to know what stock amp draw is ...

the only thing I havent eliminated the Satellite radio and Sat unit as the culprit

Doug

[SILVER2000SVT]

Thing is, if you look in the book, a feature of pretty much all Ford products is the ability of the PCM to shut off current draws to save the battery. So if a radar detector or something else is drawing it down, then there's something wrong with the PCM that's preventing it from saving the battery.


That feature only applies to a few select circuits that are powered or triggered through the PCM, such as: cabin lighting, head lamps, etc. It does not apply to the power outlets or aftermarket items that are tapped into the main battery power.

The other thing to consider is that they would have probably designed this feature (specifically referring to the powersave relay) to fail in the on position so maybe this is getting stuck on and energizing a couple of relays that is drawing the battery down?

[Silver_2000]

That feature only applies to a few select circuits that are powered or triggered through the PCM, such as: cabin lighting, head lamps, etc. It does not apply to the power outlets or aftermarket items that are tapped into the main battery power.

The other thing to consider is that they would have probably designed this feature (specifically referring to the powersave relay) to fail in the on position so maybe this is getting stuck on and energizing a couple of relays that is drawing the battery down?
the service writer suggested it was used on all acc circuits ...

Doug

[SILVER2000SVT]

the service writer suggested it was used on all acc circuits ...

Doug

I wonder if that's different for the 04's. Mine turns off all the lights on the inside but the power outlets always stay on.

[Mark #2]

found some threads about the GEM module that controls the battery saver relay going bad. I still need to know what stock amp draw is ...

the only thing I havent eliminated the Satellite radio and Sat unit as the culprit

Doug
How are you measuring?
I pulled the neg terminal, and put the meter in series 0.00 mamps
I pulled the pos terminal, and put the meter in series 0.00 mamps
Put the meter in parallel across the terminals 0.00 mamps

[Silver_2000]

How are you measuring?
I pulled the neg terminal, and put the meter in series 0.00 mamps
I pulled the pos terminal, and put the meter in series 0.00 mamps
Put the meter in parallel across the terminals 0.00 mamps

When i measured across the terminals it smoked the meter :hammer: so I pulled out the GOOD meter and disconnected the + and put it in series

with the door open the meter reads 2 amps and change with the door closed and things settled down it reads .2 amps on the 10 amp scale
Double checked that the AMP is only one when the radio is on ..

Need to pull the radio and the sat unit out of the mix as final check ...
Doug

[SILVER2000SVT]

How are you measuring?
I pulled the neg terminal, and put the meter in series 0.00 mamps
I pulled the pos terminal, and put the meter in series 0.00 mamps
Put the meter in parallel across the terminals 0.00 mamps

It doesn't sound like you have your meter set correctly. If you measured amps across the terminals it should smoke the meter (blow the meter fuse) just like what happen to Doug. My meter like a lot of them have a third probe port that you are supposed to switch your positive lead over to in order to get it to read amps.

[Tex Arcana]

That feature only applies to a few select circuits that are powered or triggered through the PCM, such as: cabin lighting, head lamps, etc. It does not apply to the power outlets or aftermarket items that are tapped into the main battery power.

The other thing to consider is that they would have probably designed this feature (specifically referring to the powersave relay) to fail in the on position so maybe this is getting stuck on and energizing a couple of relays that is drawing the battery down?

I disagree about the power outlets, because I've left my radar detector on before, to come out and find it off because the power outlet was off. I do know, however, that one outlet is the cigarette lighter, and is wired to a completely different circuit than the other, perhaps that's what's going on.

And I'm with you on the second part, that sounds likely.

[Mark #2]

It doesn't sound like you have your meter set correctly. If you measured amps across the terminals it should smoke the meter (blow the meter fuse) just like what happen to Doug. My meter like a lot of them have a third probe port that you are supposed to switch your positive lead over to in order to get it to read amps.

Discovered that the alligator clip was not screwed in/seated inside the rubber over cover. I actually know how to use a DVM, well almost I should have done continuity check first.;)

Door open 3.45 Amps, probably the rear bed light bulb changes from incandescent to LEDs.
Door closed 0.21 amps
As another reference point the K5 is 2.8 amps door open
0.2 amps door closed, and it sits for weeks at the airport, no start issues so far and the battery is 7 years old.

It is the Battery, IMHO.

[Silver_2000]

Discovered that the alligator clip was not screwed in/seated inside the rubber over cover. I actually know how to use a DVM, well almost I should have done continuity check first.;)

Door open 3.45 Amps, probably the rear bed light bulb changes from incandescent to LEDs.
Door closed 0.21 amps
As another reference point the K5 is 2.8 amps door open
0.2 amps door closed, and it sits for weeks at the airport, no start issues so far and the battery is 7 years old.

It is the Battery, IMHO.

ahhh data ...that feels soo good

Now one more data point - what is the reading after the trucks sits with doors closed for an hour ?

[Mark #2]

ahhh data ...that feels soo good

Now one more data point - what is the reading after the trucks sits with doors closed for an hour ?

Just call me Mister Data
I would measure but I will have to open the door to open the hood.
I have been beating out the second baths shower seat for the past hours, so won't make it another hour tonight.
Will pop the hood and do the test tomorrow, I have the hood light out too, so should be a good reading in the morning.

[Silver_2000]

If a battery has 70 amp hours reserve and uses .210 amps

Does that mean that a GOOD battery would be burnt to 0% in a little over 14 days ? If thats true then the trucks would be **** for long term storage since it wont start at 0%

Or my math is screwed up

It is reassuring to see another .2 amp draw though

[Mark #2]

If a battery has 70 amp hours reserve and uses .210 amps

Does that mean that a GOOD battery would be burnt to 0% in a little over 14 days ? If thats true then the trucks would be **** for long term storage since it wont start at 0%

Or my math is screwed up

It is reassuring to see another .2 amp draw though

Maybe the K5 changes over time too, will do the same test in the morning, popping hood now. Time for a shower, demolition is nasty.

[TP Derrick D]

I still have the factory battery in my 2000, it sits for weeks at a time sometimes and starts right up. Its still all stock. I probably just jinxed myself so my fingers are now crossed.

[SILVER2000SVT]

Discovered that the alligator clip was not screwed in/seated inside the rubber over cover. I actually know how to use a DVM, well almost I should have done continuity check first.;)
...

It is the Battery, IMHO.

I didn't mean to imply that you didn't know how to use it....


I checked mine this morning and it draws 0.23 amps. The only thing that would be drawing power that isn't factory is the alarm, but those are designed to draw very small amounts of power (0.01-0.05).

I will try to check again once it goes into hibernation when I get home, that takes about 45min of sitting idle to do this. I left the hood open to check again later because as soon as you open the door it triggers it to come out of hibernation. I just have to be careful when pulling the battery terminal because if you accidently break connection it will also come out hibernation then too.

[Silver_2000]

I didn't mean to imply that you didn't know how to use it....


I checked mine this morning and it draws 0.23 amps. The only thing that would be drawing power that isn't factory is the alarm, but those are designed to draw very small amounts of power (0.01-0.05).

I will try to check again once it goes into hibernation when I get home, that takes about 45min of sitting idle to do this. I left the hood open to check again later because as soon as you open the door it triggers it to come out of hibernation. I just have to be careful when pulling the battery terminal because if you accidently break connection it will also come out hibernation then too.

Seems .2 amps is normal for our trucks

Just have to figure out what the hibernation level is ... I bet mine has stopped going into hibernation .....Common problem according to the threads I have read

[SILVER2000SVT]

I just checked the current draw now that the truck has had time to go into hibernation.

I measured 0.04 amps. Keep in mind I still have the aftermarket alarm (not-armed).

[Tex Arcana]

If a battery has 70 amp hours reserve and uses .210 amps

Does that mean that a GOOD battery would be burnt to 0% in a little over 14 days ? If thats true then the trucks would be **** for long term storage since it wont start at 0%

Or my math is screwed up

It is reassuring to see another .2 amp draw though
Your math is screwed up. Remember that batteries use a chemical reaction to provide voltage/amperage, and that's based on the availability of the chemical components in the battery itself. So it could supply that .2 amps for months, as long as the water level is good AND the supply of sulfuric acid and lead are adequate.

Usually, when a battery goes bad, one of those things are out of whack. Usually, corrosion/debris will settle out of the water/acid solution, and build up to the point where the crap contacts the plates, and shorts out the cell (remember that lead-acid batteries are typically made up of 6 2-volt cells--hence why there's 6 water holes on 'em).

Sometimes the acid level will get too high and produce an inordinate amount of hydrogen, and the battery can blow up or at least swell, but that is usually indicative of a charging system problem.

Here in Texas, car battery life is about two-three years; anything older is pure luck. I do believe that a normally-used or heavily-used battery (daily) will last longer than one that's only used once in a while, that a battery NEEDS to be cycled within its operating ranges to last the longest.

I know you don't listen to me much, but my advice stands: pull the battery, and take it to a reputable testing facility (find the local Interstate Batteries supplier, or take it to NAPA), and test is properly. Chances are it's bad, or at least marginal; and the documented results of the test will give you the ammo you need to take it back and get it replaced via warranty.

[Tex Arcana]

Just call me Mister Data
I would measure but I will have to open the door to open the hood.
I have been beating out the second baths shower seat for the past hours, so won't make it another hour tonight.
Will pop the hood and do the test tomorrow, I have the hood light out too, so should be a good reading in the morning.
Pop the hood tonite, and let it sit all night; that way the PCM will shut off the current draw. Leave the door open, too, for the same reason, then do your test.

Erg, that won't work: when you pull the neg terminal, it'll reset the PCM and default it. You need to leave the meter on it all night, or at least over a couple hours. If your meter has a trace function, you can log the activity over the period you need, before it puts itself to sleep or loses the battery.

edit: go rent an electric jackhammer at Ho'Depot for the shower pan, hella easier to do that than to hammer everything out. Or, if you have a decent air supply, get an air hammer. :tu:

[Tex Arcana]

I just checked the current draw now that the truck has had time to go into hibernation.

I measured 0.04 amps. Keep in mind I still have the aftermarket alarm (not-armed).
What're you doin' lolligaggin' at home?? BACK TO WORK, YOU! ;)

Sounds about right, enough current to maintain radio/clock functions, door switches and stock alarm system.

[SILVER2000SVT]

The other thing I noticed is that after I took the hibernation measurement I disconnected the terminal for a couple of seconds and reconnected it and it did stay in hibernation mode and the current was still the same at 0.04amps.

[Tex Arcana]

The other thing I noticed is that after I took the hibernation measurement I disconnected the terminal for a couple of seconds and reconnected it and it did stay in hibernation mode and the current was still the same at 0.04amps.
I'm surprised, honestly. ONe would think that would cause a reset.

In case you or Mark are worried: get the meter, touch the pertinent spots before taking the connection off, then pull it: that way, you maintain contact at all times. :tu:

[SILVER2000SVT]

Your math is screwed up. Remember that batteries use a chemical reaction to provide voltage/amperage, and that's based on the availability of the chemical components in the battery itself. So it could supply that .2 amps for months, as long as the water level is good AND the supply of sulfuric acid and lead are adequate.
...


Huh? That was Mark's calculation. Thats a pretty straight forward calculation.

[SILVER2000SVT]

In case you or Mark are worried: get the meter, touch the pertinent spots before taking the connection off, then pull it: that way, you maintain contact at all times. :tu:

That's what I did to give you those numbers.:tu:

[Silver_2000]

Your math is screwed up. Remember that batteries use a chemical reaction to provide voltage/amperage, and that's based on the availability of the chemical components in the battery itself. So it could supply that .2 amps for months, as long as the water level is good AND the supply of sulfuric acid and lead are adequate.

If that were true then why bother with the hibernation thing at all that reduces voltage to .04 ?

[Silver_2000]

PS great data guys THANKS

[Tex Arcana]

Huh? That was Mark's calculation. Thats a pretty straight forward calculation.
That's the thing about batteries: it's not straightforward. Chemical composition and other factors such as temperature have a great deal to do with it.

Consider this: it's 0deg outside, your battery isn't quite cutting it on starting the car, and no jump available. What to do?? ;)

[Tex Arcana]

If that were true then why bother with the hibernation thing at all that reduces voltage to .04 ?
Because you need to verify it's going into hibernation. If it is NOT, and something is still drawing amperage, AND you have a weak battery, then you have a warranty issue outside the battery. ;)

[Silver_2000]

Because you need to verify it's going into hibernation. If it is NOT, and something is still drawing amperage, AND you have a weak battery, then you have a warranty issue outside the battery. ;) Ford said they tested the battery and also tested that there was no current draw.. They wanted to keep the truck for 4 days to see if it would fail to start ...:beer: .. I guess I take it to NTB to see if they can give me more data - then tonight ill drink beer till it goes into hibernation ....

[Mark #2]

Pop the hood tonite, and let it sit all night; that way the PCM will shut off the current draw. Leave the door open, too, for the same reason, then do your test.

Erg, that won't work: when you pull the neg terminal, it'll reset the PCM and default it. You need to leave the meter on it all night, or at least over a couple hours. If your meter has a trace function, you can log the activity over the period you need, before it puts itself to sleep or loses the battery.

edit: go rent an electric jackhammer at Ho'Depot for the shower pan, hella easier to do that than to hammer everything out. Or, if you have a decent air supply, get an air hammer. :tu:

.21 when I rechecked this morning, but as you have all said once you break the connection, it is reset.

[Mark #2]

That's the thing about batteries: it's not straightforward. ;)

Yes it is:
http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/amp_hours.asp

[Silver_2000]

Yes it is:
http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/amp_hours.asp


The Amp Hour rating tells you how much amperage is available when discharged evenly over a 20 hour period. The amp hour rating is cumulative, so in order to know how many constant amps the battery will output for 20 hours, you have to divide the amp hour rating by 20. Example: If a battery has an amp hour rating of 75, dividing by 20 = 3.75. Such a battery can carry a 3.75 amp load for 20 hours before dropping to 10.5 volts. (10.5 volts is the fully discharged level, at which point the battery needs to be recharged.) A battery with an amp hour rating of 55 will carry a 2.75 amp load for 20 hours before dropping to 10.5 volts

Well if I take liberties with the numbers then a 75 amp hour battery should last 15 days at .2 amp draw.. ... ?? ... ??? and 75 days at .04 amps ??

[Lyfisin]

That's how I calculated it.

3.75 / .2 = 18.75 - (20) hour periods.
18.75 * 20 = 375 of hours
375 / 24 = 15.625 days till 10.5 volts

That's assuming the battery is fully charged and has the full 75 amp hours available. A dead battery can say 75 amp hour on the sticker. :rll:

I'm not sure what my current draw is, but before my V1 (my only electric mod) I easily let the truck sit for over 30 days and never had an issue. Still on my stock battery from August of '02.

[Mark #2]

If you want to try an experiment, I still have my old battery that was perfectly fine when I took it out last year.
You are welcome to try it and see what happens. I threw it on the charger and it is still at 13.5 volts after sitting for a year.

[Silver_2000]

If you want to try an experiment, I still have my old battery that was perfectly fine when I took it out last year.
You are welcome to try it and see what happens. I threw it on the charger and it is still at 13.5 volts after sitting for a year.
I might take you up on it but

Batterys are cheap and in Texas nearly disposable - Im more concerned that its something else - I have a contract job to do tonight then some beer to drink - I think 3 or 4 beers shoudl be enough time to test hibernation now that i have good data for comparison

Doug

[Tex Arcana]

Yes it is:
http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/amp_hours.asp
I'm not 100% convinced it's THAT simplistic... you're a EE weenie, you should know THAT. :tongue:

[Mark #2]

I'm not 100% convinced it's THAT simplistic... you're a EE weenie, :tongue:
No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[whitelightning'02]

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

:rll: :rll: :rll:

[Tex Arcana]

:rll: :rll: :rll:
.

[Silver_2000]

well

I have now twice closed the Snuglid to see the stupid light still on.
At least I now know whats going wrong

I have decided to try to rewire it so it goes thru the accessory batt saver relay

while I was Googling for other lights to use I found this ..
http://www.buytruckstuff.com/tonneau-covers-glow.htm


Uses your truck's 12 volt electrical system
Low Profile light strips illuminate through a specially designed translucent cover
Emits a high impact "Glacier Glow" color for maximum lighting
No Drill Rail Tonneau & Light Kit Installation

http://www.buytruckstuff.com/images/tonneau-covers-glow-large.jpg


only $500 for a lighted translucent soft cover

but they dont make it to fit the flarside

:rll::rll::rll::rll:

[dboat]

well

I have now twice closed the Snuglid to see the stupid light still on.
At least I now know whats going wrong

I have decided to try to rewire it so it goes thru the accessory batt saver relay

while I was Googling for other lights to use I found this ..
http://www.buytruckstuff.com/tonneau-covers-glow.htm


Uses your truck's 12 volt electrical system
Low Profile light strips illuminate through a specially designed translucent cover
Emits a high impact "Glacier Glow" color for maximum lighting
No Drill Rail Tonneau & Light Kit Installation

http://www.buytruckstuff.com/images/tonneau-covers-glow-large.jpg


only $500 for a lighted translucent soft cover

but they dont make it to fit the flarside

:rll::rll::rll::rll:

Doug, I didnt get the link to work... but I did do a mod to my light.. I added a couple of small white neon lights to the area under the rail that is inset.. It works great and doesnt look ricer (well, not too much) anyway they come on with the other light and now I have a nice lighted trunk to my truck..
if I send you the vid, can you post it up.. oh, I almost forgot, I put a power lift on my Snuglid too with a remote.. so it opens remotely off of my car alarm.
Dana