plumbing woes--HELP!!

[Tex Arcana]

Anyone here know anything about plumbing; specifically pressure reducers, thermal expansion valves, T&P valves, and hot water heaters?

Quick'n'dirty backstory: T&P keeps popping, but not *fully* open, the guys doing the roughin out here put a pressure gauge on the house line and got 134 psi, and are telling me that's dangerous and it needs to be addressed immedately. I'm trying to find out for sure what would be best to do, so HELP!!??

[SILVER2000SVT]

I bet a mechanical engineer could help you, oh wait you are one...:D

No really, is it constantly at 134psi or is it spiking to that level? If its just spiking to that level its probably just water hammer and that can be fixed with an expansion tank. If it's constant you might need to install a pressure regulator. It could also be caused by a pressure regulator already installed, If a pressure regulator or back flow prevention is already installed on the main line when ever the water heater heats the water it expands and doesn't have anywhere to go and therefore pressure goes up. In this case an expansion tank will also solve the problem.

My intuition says that it's most likely the third scenerio...

[PUMP]

Anyone here know anything about plumbing; specifically pressure reducers, thermal expansion valves, T&P valves, and hot water heaters?

Quick'n'dirty backstory: T&P keeps popping, but not *fully* open, the guys doing the roughin out here put a pressure gauge on the house line and got 134 psi, and are telling me that's dangerous and it needs to be addressed immedately. I'm trying to find out for sure what would be best to do, so HELP!!??
If T&P valve is not defective, you probably need an expansion tank between heater and distribution pipe. (I assume they measured the line pressure close to water heater, i.e. by putting a gauge on the drain valve.) Expansion tanks are now required by almost all building codes (since about 2000). Purpose of the expansion tank is to prevent constant open/close of T&P valve.
The 134 psi is a little on the high side as standard rating for valves, heater tanks, fittings, etc. is 125-psi. However temporary 134-psi (until T&P valve opens) is not dangerous, especially if you have 120-deg or less setting on hot water. For a typical 80-gallon water heater a 1-gallon expansion tank is usually adequate.
If the main line hydrostatic pressure is 134-psi, (which I seriously doubt, unless you are real-real-real close to city water tower or pump station), then you need a pressure reducing valve on the incoming water line.

[Tex Arcana]

Before I left the house for my chiro appt (which I cut short), the plumbers doing the rough-in put their gauge on the main house line and got 134psi. On my way to the chiro, I called the city, told them my problem, asked for help; they called back within 5 minutes and said they were sending a crew out (who happened to like the L); they put their gauge on and got 125psi, and one of the neighbors up the street was running their sprinklers. The city guys say I need a pressure reducer, but that the city isn't responsible for it (basdatidges). The plumbers want $650 to put in a pressure reducer on the main line, and a thermal-expansion valve on the heater inlet. I called the guy who did my A/C, who called his plumber friend, who's saying I don't need the TE, just the PR; another call placed to another friend (who has a plumber on a hook) said go out to the meter, turn on a faucet, and start closing the valve at the meter until the flow drops some, as a quick fix--he also said his guy can do the job for half what the plumbers want (tho he told me to go shoot them or at least kick 'em off my land, they're ripoff artists).

I know I should know better, but I'm sleep-deprived, and the plumbers made it seem like the heater was gonna blow up if I didn't fix it, like, NOW--they even dug up the main line this side of the meter in anticipation of me saying "yes". :hammer:

I know I panicked, but I'm not thinking too straight, and this is one of those situations where everything I touch seems to go wrong right now, and I just don't trust my own judgement. All advice is greatly appreciated right now. :tu:

[WA 2 FST]

I would start with the PR and then see if you really need the TE.

I agree 135psi at the main line to the house is high. Most of us typical lot-and-block city folk are fortunate to see 75psi.

[Mark #2]

I would start with the PR and then see if you really need the TE.

I agree 135psi at the main line to the house is high. Most of us typical lot-and-block city folk are fortunate to see 75psi.

Just checked it, corner house end of the line, tonight no sprinklers running down the line and it is 50 psi.

[WA 2 FST]

Just checked it, corner house end of the line, tonight no sprinklers running down the line and it is 50 psi.

Maybe all your neighbors were taking a shower at once?:tongue:

[Mark #2]

Maybe all your neighbors were taking a shower at once?:tongue:
Many of my neighbors down the line are "not of this country" to be PC, so I doubt it.;)

[Tex Arcana]

Well, Jason called me earlier this evening, and we discussed things, he's of the opinion I need some form of expansion system, and that my little valve trick really does nothing (I agree, told ya I was suffering from sleep deprivation).

Funny thing is, the guy that owns the plumbing company contracted to do my rough-in called us on the way to our son's house, to STRONGLY, STRONGLY (did I mention STRONGLY?) urge me to get the job done, and that my little "mod" on the TP (2lb aluminum block propped on the lever to add about a pound of force to the valve so it won't just "crack" open and run) needs to come off. I did take it off as soon as we got home, but I'm fairly certain I'll find a tank full of cold water in the morning, thanks to that T&P "cracking" open and not seating fully.

That "cracking" bit: it's like it just barely opens and lets water seep out, under pressure, and it won't seat fully. I'm almost convinced it's a faulty T&P, 'cept I replaced it about a year or so ago because the previous one opened wide and would not close. Maybe it's the pressure. I do agree I'm pushing my luck with 135psi, tho.

So, that leads to the next question: do I need an expansion tank, or a thermal expansion valve?

Sleep deprivation si *so* much fun. :(

Did I mention that he said "STRONGLY"??

[Tex Arcana]

Maybe all your neighbors were taking a shower at once?:tongue:

I would notice pressure drops only twice: when my sprinkler system kicks in and I don't have the feed valve set at least at 50%; and when the construction across the street was using fire hydrant water for their water spraying tankers.

[WA 2 FST]

I would notice pressure drops only twice: when my sprinkler system kicks in and I don't have the feed valve set at least at 50%; and when the construction across the street was using fire hydrant water for their water spraying tankers.

I understand... I was really just teasing Mark. I can have my sprinklers running, both kids taking a shower, the washing machine running... and I can go take a shower and the pressure is normal (and the water is hot w/ 100 gals of hot water on tap).

But mine is at 75-80psi at the supply to the house. Mark's at 50psi is pretty low, IMHO.

135psi is off the chart, but I think that's a good problem to have. I'm learning something from this thread, though. I didn't realize high intake water pressure would have an effect on the hot water pressure-relief valve. I honestly thought that thing would only blow off due to excessive pressure caused by the water being too hot... had no idea that the intake pressure could also cause this problem.

Now I understand why the guy is suggesting some sort of expansion system.

[SILVER2000SVT]

Man I would like to have the kind of water pressure you guys are seeing. I have the opposite problem. Mine typically sits around 45psi and just something as simple as kitchen sink faucet drops the line pressure to about 30psi.

My sprinkler system in the yard takes about 12hours to put down 1" of water because the city only gave us a 5/8" water meter and I can only get about 10gal/min of flow and still have enough pressure to power them.

I recommend the tank for the expansion system. That way everything is contained, It will also absorb water hammer better than a pressure relief valve (expansion valve) on the system because a P relief valve won't have the fast reacting time like the open bladder system of a tank. The down side is that a tank system does nothing if your pressure regulator fails, which IMO is not a major risk. On the chance your pressure regulator fails on the high side (they should be designed to fail low) you will notice because you will have much higher water pressure, your hot water heater TP valve will leak, and you will see it on the pressure gauge on the regulator.

[coors2003]

hey if you dont get your problem resolved by fri call me at my office i am the manager of goldstar/northlake plumbing in garland, i can get the answers you seek. hahahahere is my office number call if you still need help i can get you a deal!214-321-1811david

[PUMP]

I am surprised that your sevicet water pressure is that high. Plumbing codes stipulate delivery water pressure not to exceed 80-psi.

[Tex Arcana]

I understand... I was really just teasing Mark. I can have my sprinklers running, both kids taking a shower, the washing machine running... and I can go take a shower and the pressure is normal (and the water is hot w/ 100 gals of hot water on tap).

But mine is at 75-80psi at the supply to the house. Mark's at 50psi is pretty low, IMHO.

135psi is off the chart, but I think that's a good problem to have. I'm learning something from this thread, though. I didn't realize high intake water pressure would have an effect on the hot water pressure-relief valve. I honestly thought that thing would only blow off due to excessive pressure caused by the water being too hot... had no idea that the intake pressure could also cause this problem.

Now I understand why the guy is suggesting some sort of expansion system.

There's another issue as well: that sort of pressure voids warranties on ALL plumbing devices. That kills the warranty on my water heater, for sure. I can tell you this, tho: I'm guessing the pressure is so high because they are preparing to supply 50-odd more houses in the development across the street. :hammer: If anyone can figure a way to make this the *city's* responsibility, I'm all ears.

And my fears were realized this morning: about 8, the wife woke me up, telling me she could hear the water running; I go down to check, and the T&P had "cracked", and most of the hot water was gone, replaced with cold. No idea how long it takes to do that, but I went back to my office and got my aluminum "block" (actually a prototype rear spindle for my MiniBaja car), and put it back; it's only putting less than a pound on the top of the valve lever, so if something *did* happen, I would think the T&P could still open fully without a problem.

I know I need a pressure regulator: I am just anfamiliar with what types there are, and how they affect things. After a VERY good night's sleep, I'm thinking clearly again, and I can see how putting just a PR on there could create a problem if the water heater went nuts and over-pressured, because the T&P wouldn't pop because the PR is absorbing the overpressure--well, that's how I'm understanding it based on all the info I've gotten so far. I just need a better understanding of what's available, and how it all works. These plumbers are playing the "fear" card on me, and basically tried to take advantage of my sleep deprivation-induced confusion :hammer:, so I'm not inclined to take their advice at the moment.

I did remember that I still have a home warranty, and that I can take advantage of that to get a plumber out here to deal with this, even if it's just a flaky T&P.

[Tex Arcana]

hey if you dont get your problem resolved by fri call me at my office i am the manager of goldstar/northlake plumbing in garland, i can get the answers you seek. hahahahere is my office number call if you still need help i can get you a deal!214-321-1811david

I'll call you tomorrow. :beer:

[Tex Arcana]

I am surprised that your sevicet water pressure is that high. Plumbing codes stipulate delivery water pressure not to exceed 80-psi.

REEEEAAAALLLYY??? Any idea how I can verify this in McKinney, so I can pull out a whup-stick and make them fix the problem??

[PUMP]

REEEEAAAALLLYY??? Any idea how I can verify this in McKinney, so I can pull out a whup-stick and make them fix the problem??
First check out the following link as it seams that others in McKinney have had similar problem. I found this while trying to find out what plumbing code the city was using.
http://www2.mckinneytexas.org/newsItems.asp?nomenu=1&did=1011|Press+Releases&aid=144&id=820

You will not be able to get the city to fix anything. It sounds as if your house is of fairly new construction. If so, you should be able to get the builder / contractor to install the pressure reducing valve (assuming he/they are still around). If not, the fix is on your nickle.

[PUMP]

I forgot to add that McKinney uses 2003 International Plumbing Code. You can view a copy at the public library or at the Building Inspection department offices. I have a copy at my office, but will not be back there until next week.

[WA 2 FST]

The fact is that this just started happening, right? You've been in that house for what, nearly 2 years? You have tested the water supply pressure at 135psi.

The city needs to put a regulator somewhere on the supply line to the neighborhood. Your neighbors are experiencing the same type of problems I am sure.

I bet you're right... they are preparing for the expansion in the neighborhood, and that's fine. But you shouldn't have to deal with this issue until half of those new houses go up.

I would call the city...if you haven't already. Whether its Building Code Inspection or Health/Safety, whatever.

[WA 2 FST]

You will not be able to get the city to fix anything. It sounds as if your house is of fairly new construction.

That's just it. His house isn't new at all. That's why this is the city's problem. Supply pressure doesn't just magically go up due to an issue with the home or home's construction. It's a city issue and unless they can afford to station emergency vehicles near the subdivisions effected, they'd better get it figured out.

[Tex Arcana]

First check out the following link as it seams that others in McKinney have had similar problem. I found this while trying to find out what plumbing code the city was using.
http://www2.mckinneytexas.org/newsItems.asp?nomenu=1&did=1011|Press+Releases&aid=144&id=820

You will not be able to get the city to fix anything. It sounds as if your house is of fairly new construction. If so, you should be able to get the builder / contractor to install the pressure reducing valve (assuming he/they are still around). If not, the fix is on your nickle.

Exactly the opposite, actually: this house was built in 1984, when the area was unincorporated. Chances are, I won't be able to get the city to do much more than they already have, which is to come out, shake their heads, and tell me it's my responsibility. :hammer: I will take another shot, tho.

[Tex Arcana]

The fact is that this just started happening, right? You've been in that house for what, nearly 2 years? You have tested the water supply pressure at 135psi.

The city needs to put a regulator somewhere on the supply line to the neighborhood. Your neighbors are experiencing the same type of problems I am sure.

I bet you're right... they are preparing for the expansion in the neighborhood, and that's fine. But you shouldn't have to deal with this issue until half of those new houses go up.

I would call the city...if you haven't already. Whether its Building Code Inspection or Health/Safety, whatever.


Good point, I'll talk with my neighbors and see what they are experiencing. And I think I'll use that argument with the city, and see if I can twist their arms into taking care of this as soon as possible.


Despite my little aluminum block, we woke up this morning to a water heater full of cold water. :hammer:

We always felt the pressure was damned good, but I suspect that I had leaks in the irrigation that was helping keep house pressure down. During the summer, we went thru about 3 or 4 hoses, because the ends near the fittings would bulge and fail, thanks to the pressure. That itself should've been a sign right there.

Off to make the phone calls... wish me luck.

[PUMP]

I wish you luck with the city. They may do something in as much as it appears that they created the problem by recent expansion or whatever. Regardless, at least you know what the problem is. A pressure regulator should cure it.

[Tex Arcana]

I wish you luck with the city. They may do something in as much as it appears that they created the problem by recent expansion or whatever. Regardless, at least you know what the problem is. A pressure regulator should cure it.

Is an expansion tank, or a thermal expansion valve, necessary as well?

[dboat]

Tex,

cant you just turn it down at the street? there has to be a valve where the water comes from the city to your house.. can you just turn it down a bit there until another solution comes along? I have done that at a couple of houses...

Dana

[Tex Arcana]

Tex,

cant you just turn it down at the street? there has to be a valve where the water comes from the city to your house.. can you just turn it down a bit there until another solution comes along? I have done that at a couple of houses...

Dana
Already have; but if you think about it, when everything is shut off in the house, the pressure will still be 130-ish psi. It will only be reduced by that trick when you're running the water.

[PUMP]

Is an expansion tank, or a thermal expansion valve, necessary as well?
Only a pressure regulator is required to reduce your static incoming pressure to 80-psi or less. The T&P valve is both a thermostatic (T) and pressure (P) relief.
Temperature lifts it open at +-170-degrees. Pressure lifts the valve seat at around 125-psi. If your incoming pressure is above 80-psi, then you would also need an expansion tank. When water heats up from incoming temperature (+- the daily average ambient, 80-85-degrees summer and 55-60-degrees winter) to your set point of 120 - 130-degrees, it expands. Without an expansion tank pressure will usually increase 20-30 psi. (The pressure increase is dependant upon the volume in the distribution piping as well as temperature rise) So, if your incoming pressure is less than 80-psi it takes a 40-psi increase to open the relief valve. If the static supply pressure is greater than 80-psi you have less tolerance and therfore need an expansion tank to handle the expansion without increasing the pressure. The expansion tank has a rubber diaphram that acts similar to a balloon as the water expands (constant pressure - variable volume). Hope this description helps.

[PUMP]

Following is link to expansion tank source including sizing charts.
http://www.plumbersurplus.com/ProductDetail.aspx?Prod=5881&Cat=856
or you can do a search on "potable water expansion tank" and you will find several other sources. One other thought for a cheaper temporary fix is to go with a 150-psi relief valve (less than $25). Since there is usually quite a bit of safety margin, that may well suite your situation. Having said that, 150-psi probably exceeds the tank pressure rating and does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling long term, even though it may work.

[dboat]

Already have; but if you think about it, when everything is shut off in the house, the pressure will still be 130-ish psi. It will only be reduced by that trick when you're running the water.

Shouldnt be if you crank it down enough..

[L8 APEX]

Maybe they hooked you onto the fire dept line? I hear the fire hydrants run 120 psi. I have never seen over 65-70 on a city line period..:ron: PRV's were very common on our commercial projects. We would take the city pressure of 60-65psi and boost it up to about 180psi so we would have a minimum pressure of 45psi at the cooling tower on the roof 30-40 stories up. Best I can remember we had a PRV on the 6th floor and every 4th above that. Each PRV would regulate the main line down to 50 or so and that fed the 3-5 floors below the PRV. There was some rule of thumb like 2.4psi per floor drop/gain of such. Its been a while. Most folks have to beg for decent pressure at home.. Maybe you are hooked to the wrong line. I'd like to see a gauge showing this from the city "Mark#2 ism":D

[Tex Arcana]

hey if you dont get your problem resolved by fri call me at my office i am the manager of goldstar/northlake plumbing in garland, i can get the answers you seek. hahahahere is my office number call if you still need help i can get you a deal!214-321-1811david

David, I tried to call this afternoon, but I missed you. If you don't mind, give me a call tomorrow at 214-385-8547. Bob, if'n you don't mind, I'd like to hear from you as well.

Thanks to you both, I appreciate the advice and info. :beer:

[Tex Arcana]

Maybe they hooked you onto the fire dept line? I hear the fire hydrants run 120 psi. I have never seen over 65-70 on a city line period..:ron: PRV's were very common on our commercial projects. We would take the city pressure of 60-65psi and boost it up to about 180psi so we would have a minimum pressure of 45psi at the cooling tower on the roof 30-40 stories up. Best I can remember we had a PRV on the 6th floor and every 4th above that. Each PRV would regulate the main line down to 50 or so and that fed the 3-5 floors below the PRV. There was some rule of thumb like 2.4psi per floor drop/gain of such. Its been a while. Most folks have to beg for decent pressure at home.. Maybe you are hooked to the wrong line. I'd like to see a gauge showing this from the city "Mark#2 ism":D

Could be. I have no way to confirm this, tho. The first house built here (the one across the street, 1801 Meadow Ranch) is empty and disconnected; the next oldest is mine (1984), and the next after that all the way at the top of the hill, and I've yet to meet the owner (used to belong to David Craig's dad, but he just gave the house to his granddaughter and her new hubby--he's got a foxbody GT or Cobra that sounds quite potent).

You think I could get the city to confirm this somehow?

[Tex Arcana]

Following is link to expansion tank source including sizing charts.
http://www.plumbersurplus.com/ProductDetail.aspx?Prod=5881&Cat=856
or you can do a search on "potable water expansion tank" and you will find several other sources. One other thought for a cheaper temporary fix is to go with a 150-psi relief valve (less than $25). Since there is usually quite a bit of safety margin, that may well suite your situation. Having said that, 150-psi probably exceeds the tank pressure rating and does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling long term, even though it may work.

The tank says working pressure is 150psi, max pressure 300psi.

My builder chewed me out this afternoon, because apparently he's seen T&P valves get blown out of hot water heaters, and the damage can be pretty extensive. He also said the owner of the company was on the lake when he started calling EVERYBODY trying to get our phone numbers so he could stress the gravity of the situation. Maybe I mis-reacted, I don't know. I do know that, if the tank is rated at 150psi, it's actual working pressure is likely higher (as is the burst), tho my builder did point out that copper piping and sweat joints are not rated for 150psi.

Another question occurs to me: if we do go with an expansion tank, and the street water pressure drops significantly when the subdivision starts using water, how will that affect the operation of the expansion tank?

[PUMP]

The tank says working pressure is 150psi, max pressure 300psi.

My builder chewed me out this afternoon, because apparently he's seen T&P valves get blown out of hot water heaters, and the damage can be pretty extensive. He also said the owner of the company was on the lake when he started calling EVERYBODY trying to get our phone numbers so he could stress the gravity of the situation. Maybe I mis-reacted, I don't know. I do know that, if the tank is rated at 150psi, it's actual working pressure is likely higher (as is the burst), tho my builder did point out that copper piping and sweat joints are not rated for 150psi.

Another question occurs to me: if we do go with an expansion tank, and the street water pressure drops significantly when the subdivision starts using water, how will that affect the operation of the expansion tank?
Not a problem, as you change the charge air pressure (pressure on the air side) to compensate. Look at the sizing tables in the link.

[Tex Arcana]

Not a problem, as you change the charge air pressure (pressure on the air side) to compensate. Look at the sizing tables in the link.

I think I get it, but it seems like I ahve to maintain a watch on inlet pressure, so I can adjust the tank pressure as needed?

[99WhiteBeast]

Just checked it, corner house end of the line, tonight no sprinklers running down the line and it is 50 psi.

Just the curious type-but how do you measure the PSI? A specific tool, outside facet?

[Tex Arcana]

Just the curious type-but how do you measure the PSI? A specific tool, outside facet?

Pressure gauge that screws into the outside faucet, that's what the plumbers and city guys used here.

[99WhiteBeast]

Pressure gauge that screws into the outside faucet, that's what the plumbers and city guys used here.

Thanks Tex- anyone know if this is something inexpensive and can get at the local hardware store?

[Mark #2]

Thanks Tex- anyone know if this is something inexpensive and can get at the local hardware store?

Yes it is.

[SILVER2000SVT]

Pressure gauge that screws into the outside faucet, that's what the plumbers and city guys used here.

I picked up one of these at lowes in the sprinkler section.

[PUMP]

Tex: Did you get all your questions resolved? If you need more help call me tomorrow on my cell phone.

[Tex Arcana]

Tex: Did you get all your questions resolved? If you need more help call me tomorrow on my cell phone.

I think so, but I'll call you anyhow. Thanks for your time. PM me your number, pls, the wife tossed the napkin I wrote your number on. :(