Anyone watch Personal Defense TV?

[dboat]

I recorded this a few times on the DVR. Anyone here watch it? Since I dont know much in this area, it seems to be pretty informative to me.

As I posted up on my rifle thread. I am now thinking of having a handgun that needs to be reasonably priced, dead reliable and would be easy to add a suppressor to, and I would use subsonic ammunition. After watching the show, one forgets that if you get woken in the night and shoot off your gun in your house, without hearing protection, you will be deafened by the noise.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Dana

[jeff56]

I recorded this a few times on the DVR. Anyone here watch it? Since I dont know much in this area, it seems to be pretty informative to me.

As I posted up on my rifle thread. I am now thinking of having a handgun that needs to be reasonably priced, dead reliable and would be easy to add a suppressor to, and I would use subsonic ammunition. After watching the show, one forgets that if you get woken in the night and shoot off your gun in your house, without hearing protection, you will be deafened by the noise.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Dana

Never seen the show, but sounds like hooey to me. Sure firing a gun without hearing protection is not good for you, but under circumstances like that, you're ears probably won't even so much as ring or be affected. Every situation is different and people react differently as well, but I'd worry more about surving a situation like that versus hearing well afterwards. That said, I'd save your money and buy a shorty 12ga which would do wonders on your hearing and any intruders. :throw: Handguns aren't meant for home defense.

[tiffo60]

That said, I'd save your money and buy a shorty 12ga which would do wonders on your hearing and any intruders. :throw: Handguns aren't meant for home defense.

+1

[Shiner1]

I beg to differ. Let's assume for a moment that you are aroused in the night by a stange sound and you reach for a scatter gun. Now you are stumbling around in the dark swinging a shotgun, investigating a noise. I would also assume that you are using buckshot not birdshot. Hard to control the collaterial (sp) damage. I feel that a sub sonic hand gun (like my .45) makes for a great home defense gun. You can manage small rooms better than if you were using a long gun and they are much lighter on the women folk. I'd feel much more comfortable with a hand gun that's easy to control in a cramped environment.

[jeff56]

I beg to differ. Let's assume for a moment that you are aroused in the night by a stange sound and you reach for a scatter gun. Now you are stumbling around in the dark swinging a shotgun, investigating a noise. I would also assume that you are using buckshot not birdshot. Hard to control the collaterial (sp) damage. I feel that a sub sonic hand gun (like my .45) makes for a great home defense gun. You can manage small rooms better than if you were using a long gun and they are much lighter on the women folk. I'd feel much more comfortable with a hand gun that's easy to control in a cramped environment.

Get you a nice Benelli with a pistol grip stock, carried properly there'll be no swinging around. Plus, the very fact that you mention being aroused in the night and stumbling around in the dark is all the better reason for a shotgun as compared to a pistol - especially when being realistic about most people's abilities with a handgun. Plus, in the stumbling around you encounter someone up close who manages to grab ahold of your weapon. What would you rather fight over - your handgun or a longgun, that is a CQB machine?

Course, personal preference is just that - personal.

[L8 APEX]

Handguns are a last resort when no better weapon is available. The best weapon in the home is a shotgun with a weapon mounted light like an M3. You can use 4 buck if you are worried about over penetration through walls. Dana and his wife live alone so he doesn't have to worry about kids rooms etc. A 9mm or 45 will go through a couple of interior walls before they stop. The other choice is a sub gun with tactical or frangible 223 ammunition. Several entry teams have made this switch to lessen the over penetration of pistol calibers in various structures. I wouldn't worry about hearing protection. Every time I have used a weapon in defense I doen't recall hearing the noise or even the recoil. It is a very focused adrenaline fueled situation. Handguns are last a last resort for when you are in public or too far away from a real weapon like shotgun or rifle.

[L8 APEX]

Look how the pro's do it. Take a cue from folks who make a living of searching and clearing various structures homes, offices, buses, planes etc. You will never see one running in the front door with his little pistol drawn:nono: .
http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/US_Swat_Team-01.jpg
http://www.catnabbit.com/buttons/catswat.jpg
http://www.toyarsenal.com/toygun/swat4sm.jpg
No pistol in the swat team kit.:D
http://www.myloupe.com/disp_thumb_images/1038/display/193969.jpg
Gotta have the weapon mounted light. I call it blind n' blast they freeze like deer in headlights!

[Moonshine]

Sure firing a gun without hearing protection is not good for you, but under circumstances like that, you're ears probably won't even so much as ring or be affected.

+1. It's called auditory exclusion, and it's a well documented phenomena that occurs in life threatening critical incidents.

As for the other comments, a long gun is always a better weapon if you know you're going to a fight, but for a bedroom defensive weapon for the average homeowner I think it's a hard to beat a stainless steel double action revolver in .38 Spl or .357 Mag. If Dana is willing to put in signifcant time training, practicing, and maintaining a weapon system, then sure, a Benelli is a much more potent weapon. I'm betting that we can all agree that trying to clear a house by yourself is an excellent way to get bushwacked and/or disarmed.

[SIL02SVT]

I myself carry my AR-15 when I get up to check something out but before I got it I would carry my 1911 with hydrashocks in it. Also to answer your question you can find you a XD for around 450 +/- brand new and they are great reliable guns you'll never be able to shoot better than it.

Also if you want some real firearms help you should check out
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/index.php?

The firingline is a great place to ask questions and get answers alot of LEO, SWAT, Milatary and weekend warriors on there.

[wesman]

What I find funny is the talk of 9mm or .45 bullets penetrating walls, then posting a AR-15 or M-4, M16 etc....talk about penetrating walls :rll: :rll:

[Shiner1]

Look how the pro's do it. Take a cue from folks who make a living of searching and clearing various structures homes, offices, buses, planes etc. You will never see one running in the front door with his little pistol drawn:nono: .
http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/US_Swat_Team-01.jpg
http://www.catnabbit.com/buttons/catswat.jpg
http://www.toyarsenal.com/toygun/swat4sm.jpg
No pistol in the swat team kit.:D
http://www.myloupe.com/disp_thumb_images/1038/display/193969.jpg
Gotta have the weapon mounted light. I call it blind n' blast they freeze like deer in headlights!

That's all well and good if you are "searching and clearing " a building. I'm talking about an average Joe home owner trying to defend his family without the benefit of a swat team behind him. One of the "pros" likes the idea of a hand gun by the way.

[Moonshine]

What I find funny is the talk of 9mm or .45 bullets penetrating walls, then posting a AR-15 or M-4, M16 etc....talk about penetrating walls :rll: :rll:

'Tis true. Contrary to popular belief the .223 penetrates less than most commonly used handgun rounds.

[SIL02SVT]

.223 does too penetrate more, thats why I can't shoot my AR at my indoor pistol range because it will go through the back wall. a AR will penetrate body armor 9mm and .45 won't.

[Silver_2000]

.223 does too penetrate more, thats why I can't shoot my AR at my indoor pistol range because it will go through the back wall. a AR will penetrate body armor 9mm and .45 won't.

If it were me I wouldnt argue this subject with moonshine....:tex

[SIL02SVT]

If it were me I wouldnt argue this subject with moonshine....:tex
Why is he suppose to be the gun guru or something. I guess thats why our troops us the .223/5.56NATO round is because it doesn't penetrate anything huh?

[Tex Arcana]

I like the idea of a .45, 'cuz it will knock the living sh!t out of whoever it hits; the only thing I don't like about them is the limited # of rounds in the clip, which is why I like the Springfield XD40. It's also hammerless, with indicators for cocked firing pin and loaded chamber, which can be felt in the dark. I don't know if it's subsonic or not, but it seems to be a nice compromise between a .45 and a 9mm.

As for shotguns: I like the kind of load that has fishing weights connected with wire. :d

[TXLIGHTNING]

Ill stick with my 12 gauge riot gun with pistol grips, and my subcompact Glock 40cal. :tu:

[SIL02SVT]

I like the idea of a .45, 'cuz it will knock the living sh!t out of whoever it hits; the only thing I don't like about them is the limited # of rounds in the clip, which is why I like the Springfield XD40. It's also hammerless, with indicators for cocked firing pin and loaded chamber, which can be felt in the dark. I don't know if it's subsonic or not, but it seems to be a nice compromise between a .45 and a 9mm.

As for shotguns: I like the kind of load that has fishing weights connected with wire. :d
The XD45 holds just as many rounds as the XD40 does in the "MAG" also any gun can shoot subsonic as long as subsonic ammo is made for in that caliber.

9mm=~115 grain 1,300 FPS muzzle velocity
.45ACP=~230 grain 800 FPS muzzle velocity
.223=~60 grain 3,200 FPS muzzle velocity


I'm sure a .223 FMJ bullet will penetrate much more than a 9mm or .45ACP

[Tex Arcana]

http://www.toyarsenal.com/toygun/swat4sm.jpg

What the hell is that top weapon? :confused:


No pistol in the swat team kit.:D
http://www.myloupe.com/disp_thumb_images/1038/display/193969.jpg
Gotta have the weapon mounted light. I call it blind n' blast they freeze like deer in headlights!

That at the top left looks suspiciously like a pistol in a holster.

Is there a light available that will come on with the touch of the trigger?? I can see having the light on from the moment you pick up the weapon being a liability (as in, showing them where you are). When I wake up in the middle of the night, my nightvision is at its best, and I don't "stumble around", so at that point I'd rather NOT have a light 'til absolutely necessary (as in, right ahead of the bullet).
.

[Tex Arcana]

The XD45 holds just as many rounds as the XD40 does in the "MAG" also any gun can shoot subsonic as long as subsonic ammo is made for in that caliber.

9mm=~115 grain 1,300 FPS muzzle velocity
.45ACP=~230 grain 800 FPS muzzle velocity
.223=~60 grain 3,200 FPS muzzle velocity


I'm sure a .223 FMJ bullet will penetrate much more than a 9mm or .45ACP


That is cool... I like the way the XD fires, very controllable, doens't kick like a mule like my 38sp revolver does. The Glocks I tried in .40 and 9mm were positively nasty, kicked horribly, felt awful, and just weren't all that accurate.

[SIL02SVT]

Yes you can get lights that come on when trigger is squeezed but you gotta look out for those because you squeeze to hard to get the light on your going to squeeze a round off. They also have some grips (although you can't put different grips on a XD) called laser grips that have the laser's pressure pad built in for your middle fingure the one under the trigger guard can turn it on. they are like 150 bucks though. I figure you could adapt them to a lights presure pad.

[wesman]

If it were me I wouldnt argue this subject with moonshine....:tex

While I respect his opinion I don't take it as gospel. I've had my fair share of experience with the above mentioned weapons as they were my service weapons for 8 years.

The rounds themselves aren't the only thing in question here IMO. It's the weapons delivering the rounds.

Quick question for those in the know:

What is the muzzle velocity for a standard issue M16A2? Ar15? M4?

How is that compared to a standard/compact/subcompact 9mm or .45?

Why do you think they changed from the M193 or M855 rounds to the M955? My guess would be it's penetrating ability, since it can go through a piece of steel twice as thick as that of the M855 round.

These rounds (when fired from a M16a2,M4 carbine etc) were designed to penetrate lightly armored personnel carriers, would it not stand to reason that it would penetrate a 1" drywalled wall (2" of drywall for a 10" thick wall) with relative ease, and at such a velocity that it would likely penetrate not one, but likely several walls in a row.

I'd be willing to bet you could fire into an exterior wall of a standard home and you could shoot all the way through the house with a 5.56/.223 round with a M16A2, M4 etc. Do you think that a 9mm or .45 would be able to accomplish this(fired from a pistol of course)? I'm sure many of the sub-machine guns etc could accomplish this with a .45 round, but that's not the point of this discussion.


This is gonna be a lengthy discussion I'm sure.....:tex

[SIL02SVT]

The velocity of the bullet is determined by the berrel lenth and what grain the bullet is. The gun itself is just used for functionality. Its like saying a AK47 never jams thats because the build of the weapon is such a good one not because it throws bullets farther than other rifles do. I listed the velocity's of the bullets earlier but will do it again.
9mm=~115 grain 1,300 FPS muzzle velocity
.45ACP=~230 grain 800 FPS muzzle velocity
.223=~60 grain 3,200 FPS muzzle velocity

by far the .223 will way over penetrate compared to the 9 and 45.

[Silver_2000]

Why is he suppose to be the gun guru or something. I guess thats why our troops us the .223/5.56NATO round is because it doesn't penetrate anything huh?

In the same way I be careful in arguing Lightning maintenance/upgrades with Terry or the details of HVAC with Ron.

[99WhiteBeast]

subscribing- this should be good

[Moonshine]

Guess I should have clarified my prior statement. A .223 will not penetrate a soft target (human being, ordinance gelatin) as deeply as typical handgun calibers. A .223 will pentrate body armor and/or hard barriers better than handguns calibers. Conseuqently, there's less risk of overpenetrating human targets when using .223 as compared to handgun calibers, and that's why many LE entry teams have switched to .223 caliber entry weapons.

[wesman]

Guess I should have clarified my prior statement. A .223 will not penetrate a soft target (human being, ordinance gelatin) as deeply as typical handgun calibers. A .223 will pentrate body armor and/or hard barriers better than handguns calibers. Conseuqently, there's less risk of overpenetrating human targets when using .223 as compared to handgun calibers, and that's why many LE entry teams have switched to .223 caliber entry weapons.

;) this I can get on board with

However, in the instant mentioned I don't think it will matter the round in question. If a child is hit with anything mentioned above they are likely done unless they're just grazed.

--wes

[SIL02SVT]

Thats more plausable however If you have kids in any room of the house I would advise against using a .223 because you aren't going to hit the soft body tissue each time I can promise no one is that great of a shot in dark with adrealine rushing.

[dboat]

I am glad that I posted this thread because I appreciate the discussion.

Terry did explain my situation fairly well.. its just the wife and I.. actually, I dont think I will need to fire thru the drywall.. I was more hoping that if I just yelled, fired the gun, that the intruder would hopefully drop a load in their drawers and leave the house.. otherwise, trying to store even a short rifle or assault weapon would be problematic, compared to grabbing a handgun..
I was thinking suppressor because of the noise, but now I am convinced it wont be an issue.

I do already have my near 30 year old, near perfect Ruger Speed Six revolver which should never, ever jam.. yes its only 6 shots, but the intruder doesnt know that.. its only a 9mm, but if you hit someone a couple of times, unless they are on PCP, it should leave a lasting impression or at least a mark..

I do want to hear more from everyone while I am making this important decision..

Thanks
Dana

[L8 APEX]

Official wallboard test data. The tactical ammo does break apart decent. The NATO FMJ stuff drills holes all the way as designed. The shorter barrel had an affect as well.
http://www.njpdresources.org/pdfs/wallboard_test.pdf
The point of my post was that a pistol is the least powerful, accurate and capable of all firearms. For home defense where you can have long guns at the ready a shotgun or CQB rifle is a better choice. You cannot intelligently argue that handguns are better than long guns to defend your home. Just like the old west days there is nothing more intimidating than a sawed off shotgun. They know you are not likely to miss if you aim within a foot or less of them. It is hard to hit a moving target with a pistol much less to do so with lethal accuracy. When is the last time you trained with live ammo in the dark with your pistol. Learning to overcome muzzle flash and instinct pointing since the sights are blacked out etc.. Train like you fight, fight like you train. There are some folks on here with some great real world experience from Military, LE, SWAT, Competitive shooters etc. I am glad to learn and share here.

[my2002lightning]

Dana,

As I see it, there are many physics-based variables involved with a projectile from a firearm - drastically varying caliber(s)/speed(s) of the bullet - 9mm, 40 S&W, .357, 10mm, .45 ACP, and graduating up to the .223, 7.62x51mm (.308) and 7.62x63 (.30-06), whether it's an AP, FMJ, SP, HP, Black-Talon, Hydra-Shok, frangibles, etc.

My understanding is that one of the US military's reasons of going with the .223 v. the .308 for rifle and 9mm v. .45ACP for handgun is that the soldier can carry more rounds into combat and that with proper training, more rounds would be used to "Git 'R Done", so to speak, and place more rounds into the intended target.

As for personal experience(s), I do know that:

A MAK-90 7.62x39 FMJ round and a .30-06 165 gr. SP round can go through a C-6 torque converter and break-up some of the fins, but can't penetrate the backside of the casing - from equal distance of ~50 yrds.

A 30-06 and .300 Win. Mag. SP rounds typically just poke holes (entrance and exit) holes through whitetail - you can barely fit your pinky-finger in the exit wound - it's like a freight-train hit 'em, either way.

Now, when the round hits bone, for example, it can be quite catastrophic. One example was when I hit a whitetail-buck a few years ago with the .300 Win. Mag. I'll spare the details, but I've never seen a 3-legged buck run so fast from me. :cool:

The 8-ptr. (4x4) I hit at ~109 yds. with Dad's .30-06 (my reloaded 165 gr. Sierra BTSP with IMR powder) was a spine-shot. :rolleyes: It literally spun him around with hooves flailing in the air.knana

It was a crazy moment - it was all slow-motion and the rifle-report sounded like it was a mile-away.

My 9-ptr. (5x4) with the .300 Win. Mag. was rolled a time-or-two from the spot where I hit him. I think it only hit a few ribs, from what I could tell at the time. He didn't go far after that...:cool:

I knew of a local owner cleaning his .30-06 in his living room. He forgot about the round in the chamber for a cleaning session. :hammer: It went off, shot all the way through the brick-home and knocked out a chunk of brick on the far-side of the house.

I suppose it all boils down to what you are comfortable with both at the range and at home.

Good luck.

Ronald

[SIL02SVT]

Also dana i'm not for sure in PA but I know here in TX that you have to have a specail permit for those silencers. When I was going through my Concealed Handgun Lisence class I had the choice of upgrading it for another 300 to a class to carry permit and that allows you to have on your person or at the house fully auto and silenced weapons. but without the permit it is illegal to have a silencer.

[Moonshine]

When I was going through my Concealed Handgun Lisence class I had the choice of upgrading it for another 300 to a class to carry permit and that allows you to have on your person or at the house fully auto and silenced weapons. but without the permit it is illegal to have a silencer.

I'm really restraining myself here. Somebody help me please. :hammer:

[SIL02SVT]

I'm really restraining myself here. Somebody help me please. :hammer:
help yourself for what? Thats what the dude told me...I don't claim to be the all knowing gun expert like some people.

[BC Lightning]

Also dana i'm not for sure in PA but I know here in TX that you have to have a specail permit for those silencers. When I was going through my Concealed Handgun Lisence class I had the choice of upgrading it for another 300 to a class to carry permit and that allows you to have on your person or at the house fully auto and silenced weapons. but without the permit it is illegal to have a silencer.

The guy feed you a bunch of bull

Silencers are illegal and my understanding is you can even get a permit for them

Fully auto runs close or more than $1,000 to get a license and lasts a year, I know Brian knows for sure being in Law Inforcment, but that is what I remember when my dad looked into it, but that was back pre 9/11 and could be totally different now

[my2002lightning]

Kyle,

What your CCW instructor is telling you doesn't seem right, off-hand. I would look for clarification on these points.

I would be more inclined to follow Moonshine's judgement and his input, given his background in LE.

Ronald

[SIL02SVT]

I was just telling you guys what I was told... I myself would never need a fully auto plus couldn't afford one I would rather buy a car than a fully auto gun. Sorry for misinforming you dana.

[dboat]

I was just telling you guys what I was told... I myself would never need a fully auto plus couldn't afford one I would rather buy a car than a fully auto gun. Sorry for misinforming you dana.

not a prob, Kyle... the purpose for this thread is to post different opinions, ideas and comments..

Dana

[L8 APEX]

Here is a little info. basically it is a BATF form 4 and a 200 tax stamp and local LEO or DA signature.
http://www.vectorarms.com/instructions/how_to_own.html

[wesman]

I was just telling you guys what I was told... I myself would never need a fully auto plus couldn't afford one I would rather buy a car than a fully auto gun. Sorry for misinforming you dana.


Actually, it's very easy to convert a M16A2 from 3 round burst to full auto, in fact you can do it and then convert it back quite easily....or so I've heard ;)

--wes

[SIL02SVT]

Actually, it's very easy to convert a M16A2 from 3 round burst to full auto, in fact you can do it and then convert it back quite easily....or so I've heard ;)

--wes
Yea but you have to get your hands on a m16 first, 3rnd burst and fully auto are LEO or military use only unless you have a permit to own those.
and they are pretty expensive.

[dboat]

What do you guys think about a handgun like this?

It shoots .45 and 410's


http://www.taurustactical.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=198&category=Revolver

Dana

[Sixpipes]

Haven't posted to date, but there is a lot of accurate information available on the web. A lot of good links along with this one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

[Silver_2000]

What do you guys think about a handgun like this?

It shoots .45 and 410's


http://www.taurustactical.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=198&category=Revolver

Dana
6 .410 shot shells in a handgun..
That would be a good way to clean out the house of bad guys.... LOL

Wow

I think I would want to try one first ...

[Sixpipes]

6 .410 shot shells in a handgun..
That would be a good way to clean out the house of bad guys.... LOL

Wow

I think I would want to try one first ...

I think I would prefer a 12 guage with a 3" chamber. Maybe with 00 buck shot...:D

[wesman]

Yea but you have to get your hands on a m16 first, 3rnd burst and fully auto are LEO or military use only unless you have a permit to own those.
and they are pretty expensive.

how many do you want? :)

[Silver_2000]

I think I would prefer a 12 guage with a 3" chamber. Maybe with 00 buck shot...:D
Like you I have the basic 12 gauge pump - works for me

I was referring to the discussion before that a 12 gauge was too big to maneuver in a house safely ..

[SIL02SVT]

how many do you want? :)
who me I don't want any I have my civilian version AR I don't even know what I would want one for except to say I have a fully auto or do a drive by :rll: anyway I was just trying to keep the discussion going...

[Tex Arcana]

What do you guys think about a handgun like this?

It shoots .45 and 410's


http://www.taurustactical.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=198&category=Revolver

Dana
:eek2: holeeecrap! That'll do the trick, tho I have questions about the range and the accuracy.

Dana, what you should do is go to your local gunsmith/firing range, and shoot a cariety of weapons, and ask them questions. If they're honest (and pass the TALON muster test), they should point you in the right direction. Plus, you get to actually go hands-on with whichever weapon you will end up with. Not to mention you and your wife should go at check out on the weapon you have.

[Tex Arcana]

6 .410 shot shells in a handgun..
That would be a good way to clean out the house of bad guys.... LOL

Wow

I think I would want to try one first ...

That thing probably kicks like a mule; but, with the .410 shell and large shot, it'll probably turn the intruder into hamburger. :eek:

[Tex Arcana]

Like you I have the basic 12 gauge pump - works for me

I was referring to the discussion before that a 12 gauge was too big to maneuver in a house safely ..

sawed-off side-by-side or over-under, anyone? :d

[03LightningRocks]

.223 does too penetrate more, thats why I can't shoot my AR at my indoor pistol range because it will go through the back wall. a AR will penetrate body armor 9mm and .45 won't.

This issue is more about the rounds than the gun used. Hard Ball ammo is what they are concerned with. Soft point rounds aren't a problem. The reason they just exclude the weapon is that most of the ammo the average Joe Smoe buys for this weapon is the cheap military hard ball stuff.

[Ivanhoe_Farms]

The guy feed you a bunch of bull

Silencers are illegal and my understanding is you can even get a permit for them

Fully auto runs close or more than $1,000 to get a license and lasts a year, I know Brian knows for sure being in Law Inforcment, but that is what I remember when my dad looked into it, but that was back pre 9/11 and could be totally different now


1. "silencers" more correctly suppressors, are controlled by the ATFE and may be under some state restrictions, but they are not illegal per se in the majority of the states.

Here is the low-down on silencers;
This sorta pretains to real suppressors...but I figured this would give ya'll some idear as to where they're allowed and such.


Contrary to popular belief, removable Silencer / Moderator / Sound Suppressors are legal to own under federal law. There are, however, 16 states, plus the District of Columbia , that prohibit the civilian ownership of removable Silencer / Moderator / Sound Suppressors. At this time, the following states allow private ownership of removable Silencer / Moderator / Sound Suppressors: AL, AR, AK, AZ, CO, CT, FL, GA, ID, IN, KY, LA, ME, MD,MS, MT, ND, NE, NV, NH, NM, NC, OH, OK, OR, PA, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, WA,WV, WI, and WY. Of the sixteen states which do not allow civilian ownership, CA, IA, KS, MA, MO, and MI allow class 3 dealers and class two manufacturers to possess removable Silencer / Moderator / Sound Suppressors.

Removable Silencer / Moderator / Sound Suppressors, like machine-guns, are proscribed under the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934, and are regulated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. The procedure for owning a removable Silencer / Moderator / Sound Suppressors may seem daunting at first, but actually requires less paperwork than buying an automobile. The buyer then has the chief law enforcement officer (Sheriff, Chief of Police, head of state police agency, district attorney, a judge with the power of arrest, or any other law enforcement officer approved for this procedure by the National Firearms Act branch of the BATF) sign the rear of the Form 4 attesting the prospective purchaser does not possess a criminal record and is not wanted. The two fingerprint cards must be completed and signed by a law enforcement agency. The completed paperwork is then sent to the Department of the Treasury with a check or money order for $200.00. The $200.00 is known as a transfer tax, as it must be paid each time ownership of the removable Silencer / Moderator / Sound Suppressors is "transferred" (in this case, the dealer to the prospective purchaser). As long as the silencer is owned by the same person, the tax need not be paid again. Only if the owner sells it will a new transfer tax need to be paid. An owner may will his silencer to a lawful heir, with no tax incurred.

Once the paper work is submitted, it normally takes less than sixty days to receive the approved, stamped paperwork from NFA Branch. It is only upon the return of the approved paperwork that the dealer can allow the prospective purchaser to take possession of his new silencer. A copy of the approved paperwork must accompany the silencer at all times (the original should be stored in a safe deposit box). Removable Silencer / Moderator / Sound Suppressors can be transported to other states which allow their ownership, but to transport a removable Silencer / Moderator / Sound Suppressors into one of the sixteen states which prohibit private ownership can subject the owner to serious state felony charges.
http://forum.specialopspaintball.com/index.php?showtopic=1211


As far as full automatic/restricted firearms, the tax stamp is paid at the transfer of the weapon and is good until the next transfer of the weapon on a form 3 or a form 4.
"
The National Firearms Act (NFA), cited as the Act of June 26, 1934, Ch. 757, 48 Stat. 1236, as amended, currently codified as Chapter 53 of the Internal Revenue Code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Code), 26 U.S.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Code) § 5801 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/5801.html) through 26 U.S.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Code) § 5872 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/5872.html), is a United States federal law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_law) passed in 1934 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934) that, in general, imposes a statutory excise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise) tax on the manufacture and transfer of all Title II weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Title_II_weapons&action=edit) and mandates the registration of those weapons. Title II weapons are defined as all sound suppressors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor) or 'silencers', all machine guns, all rifles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle) with a barrel length less than 16 inches (406 mm) (SBR) and shotguns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun) with a barrel length less than 18 inches (457 mm) (SBS), shoulder fired weapons with an overall length less than 26 inches (660 mm), weapons classified as "Any Other Weapon" (AOW) and weapons classified as "destructive devices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device)" (DD). For weapons with folding, collapsing or telescoping stocks, the overall length is measured with the stock fully extended.
The registration process, purchases, taxes and transfers
All NFA items must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol%2C_Tobacco%2C_Firearms%2C_and_Ex plosives) (ATF). Private owners wishing to purchase an NFA item must obtain permission from both the ATF and the county sheriff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheriff) or city or town chief of police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_of_police), pass an extensive background check (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_check) to include submitting a photograph and finger prints, fully register the firearm, receive ATF written permission before moving the firearm across state lines, and pay a tax. The request to transfer ownership of an NFA item is made on an ATF Form 4 (http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/pdfs/f53204.pdf). NFA items may also be transferred to corporations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporations). When the paperwork to request transfer of an NFA item is initiated by an officer of a corporation, permission from local law enforcement is not required, and fingerprint cards and photographs do not need to be submitted with the transfer request. Thus an individual who lives in a locale where the chief law enforcement officer will not sign a transfer form can still own an NFA item if he/she owns a corporation.
The tax for privately manufacturing any NFA firearm (other than machineguns, which are generally illegal to manufacture) is $200. Transferring requires a $200 tax for all NFA firearms except AOWs, for which the transfer tax is $5 (note that the manufacturing tax is still $200). Dealers who pay a special yearly occupational tax are exempt from these taxes for transfers to or from other special occupational taxpayers (SOTs). The registration or transfer process takes approximately 4-6 months to complete. Additionally, the firearm can never be handled or transported by any other private individual unless the firearm's registered owner is present.
" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

Hope this clears up the issue somewhat:cool:

[dboat]

Like you I have the basic 12 gauge pump - works for me

I was referring to the discussion before that a 12 gauge was too big to maneuver in a house safely ..

Doug hit the nail on the head...

See most folks like me keep a gun in the house for self defense purposes and dont really go out shooting them that often.. also, most of the longest distances in a home are rather short for the most part, IF someone were to break in, I have a feeling that most of occurences would be in close quarters. If you are not a good shot, then here is a handgun, (easy to store and conceal) that is like a shotgun or it can also be a regular handgun. The point would be point it in the general direction and shoot.. I just dont know enough about any of this to know if a .410 shell would even slow down an intruder. Also, in my mind, I keep thinking that a rifle/shotgun is going to be harder to manage than a handgun.
I do want to hear from more of you on this issue. This is a very important decision for me to make, and I dont make it lightly..

Thanks and post up
Dana

[Ivanhoe_Farms]

See most folks like me keep a gun in the house for self defense purposes and dont really go out shooting them that often.. I just dont know enough about any of this to know if a .410 shell would even slow down an intruder.
Dana

Dana,

I assume you are talking about the Taurus 44 Ten which is a five shot .410(2 1/2") and 45 LC revolver weighing 32 ounces and 11 3/4 inches over all. At close range the .410 can certainly do some damage but the rifling in the barrel necessary to stabilize the .45 LC bullet will start slinging the shot as soon as it leaves the barrel causing the effect of the shot to dissipate rather quickly. A 2 1/2 .410 will have a shot load of approximately 1/2 ounce or 219 grains. Most .45 LC have a barrel twist of 1 in 20" so the shotcup would be spinning at that rate. To maximize impact one would want to use #4 shot or larger since the .410 has a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps or lower based upon barrel length. If my memory serves me correctly, one can get 2 1/2 .410 with OO buck and there are 3 or 4 pellets in the cartridge. with the 3 1/2 Judge model, the main thing to contend with is going to be RECOIL, and if you have not shot it very much, that may be very disconcerting.

You can buy a Short barrel pump shotgun with an 11 or so inch barrel in 12 guage which would be very easy to handle, but his would come under the AOW ATF rules and require a tax stamp.

[my2002lightning]

Dana,

Just go to your local range and rent your typical Glock, Beretta, Sig, Hechler & Koch, Kimber, Walter, Colt Gov't Model pistols, etc. in the .9mm/.40 S&W/.45 configs and see which you can best put the rounds in the "10-ring" consistently.

Try your lighter high-performance Hollow-Point options like the Hydra-Shok and Cor-Bon offerings.

Hitting the target consistently and effectively is the key! No matter the round, IMO.

Ronald

[Tex Arcana]

Dana,

Just go to your local range and rent your typical Glock, Beretta, Sig, Hechler & Koch, Kimber, Walter, Colt Gov't Model pistols, etc. in the .9mm/.40 S&W/.45 configs and see which you can best put the rounds in the "10-ring" consistently.

Try your lighter high-performance Hollow-Point options like the Hydra-Shok and Cor-Bon offerings.

Hitting the target consistently and effectively is the key! No matter the round, IMO.

Ronald



:rolleyes: I told him that already.

[L8 APEX]

I would put together a reliable pump 12gauge and keep it in the closet or other cosy place if a safe is not available. A Remington 870 or Winchester 1300 Defender are both good. Both will have an 18" barrel which is the legal minimum without hassles. Throw a light on it like the Sure Fire replacement grip with built in pressure switch. Then you have a solid home defense tool.
Your basic shotgun
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_express_synthetic_18inch.asp
http://www.vangcomp.com/images/ron_1.jpg
And your basic forend and light to do a little blink and bang;)
http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main.pl?pgm=co_disp&func=displ&sesent=00&carfnbr=124
http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/618fa_large.jpg

[03LightningRocks]

I think I would prefer a 12 guage with a 3" chamber. Maybe with 00 buck shot...:D


:tu:.......

[99WhiteBeast]

I don't recall anyone mentioning this. I think the slide action noise of the pump shotgun gets the attention of an intruder :eek: and would probably get most burglars hauling arse out of the house

[Ohmsby]

I own several guns and enjoy hunting, shooting clay and so on. I have a CHL and often carry my firearm when traveling.

I have never been in a situation where my weapon was needed and I find when I am carrying I avoid confrontation.

When my Wife is home alone she has 2 large dogs and Alaskan Guard Pepper spray(Bear pepper spray). Primarily because she could and most importantly would use it if need be.

You can paint the bad guy/guy's from across the room

side note: I believe the 12 guage 00 buck has the same ballistics as 9 .45 rounds flame me if i'm incorrect

[Sixpipes]

My home defense weapon of choice...

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/Rossi.jpg

[Silver_2000]

I don't recall anyone mentioning this. I think the slide action noise of the pump shotgun gets the attention of an intruder :eek: and would probably get most burglars hauling arse out of the house

For most home defense stuff short of WW3
It shouldn't make much difference what you go after them with.

I have to think the statistics are in your favor if you are armed and can hit what you are aiming for. I used to have a 22 caliber Browning buckmark pistol - Gave it to ex wife - All you big calliber guys will laugh but it had a 10 shot clip and I could hit what I was aiming at - picking it up and aiming and shooting was very intuitive for me.

Of course the idea that you are better off killing someone in your house than injuring them is another matter.

Would it be bad if I slowed them down with the 22 and finished em off with the 9mm or 12 gauge ?:evil:evil

[Ohmsby]

My home defense weapon of choice...

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/Rossi.jpgboth barrell's loaded with Liberty dimes:tex

[99WhiteBeast]

both barrell's loaded with Liberty dimes:tex

:ron:
I was peppered with rock salt as a 'yute' playing on someone's land that did not like me there- it packed quite a wallop. I still remember that sound of that pump action.:eek2:

[Moonshine]

Thanks to Milton for setting the record straight on suppressors and Class III firearms. I was way too lazy to type all that out, but he gave you the straight skinny. :tu:

[TXLIGHTNING]

:ron:
I was peppered with rock salt as a 'yute' playing on someone's land that did not like me there- it packed quite a wallop. I still remember that sound of that pump action.:eek2: I hate to say that I have been there and done that :eek2: , I feel your pain.

[Mark #2]

For most home defense stuff short of WW3
It shouldn't make much difference what you go after them with.

I have to think the statistics are in your favor if you are armed and can hit what you are aiming for. I used to have a 22 caliber Browning buckmark pistol - Gave it to ex wife - All you big calliber guys will laugh but it had a 10 shot clip and I could hit what I was aiming at - picking it up and aiming and shooting was very intuitive for me.

Of course the idea that you are better off killing someone in your house than injuring them is another matter.

Would it be bad if I slowed them down with the 22 and finished em off with the 9mm or 12 gauge ?:evil:evil

The SO has the Ruger .22 in the night stand, better shot/lighter sleeper, so I feel safe.:evil

[Ivanhoe_Farms]

I have to think the statistics are in your favor if you are armed and can hit what you are aiming for. I used to have a 22 caliber Browning buckmark pistol - Gave it to ex wife - All you big calliber guys will laugh but it had a 10 shot clip and I could hit what I was aiming at - picking it up and aiming and shooting was very intuitive for me.

:evil:evil

There have probably been more people killed with a .22 than any other single caliber, having said that, I also know if an instance where an individual was shot nine times with a .22 and still strangled the shooter to death before he expired.

The real idea behind a 12 guage pump shotgun or a large caliber sidearm is to defuse the situation. I am not saying that one does not have to KNOW that the will use the weapon before it is displayed, what I am saying is that when you look down the wrong end of a 12 guage, it looks like a sewer pipe:eek: It is a flashing neon sign of open for business, and the racking of a pump signifies intent.

As most deer hunters will attest, their group size enlarges considerably when they are shooting at a deer instead of paper. The same is true in life and death situations, the adrenalin hits the body and it is very difficult to maintain poise with a handgun unless there has been considerable training and muscle memory in stressful situations such as IPSC or Defense Competiion Shoots. That is one reason the police train as much as they do is to let the training take over in the situation.

For us novices, we need the ability to miss and still hit, that is why a pump shotgun is a great choice for home defense.

Dennis, for your double, may I suggest one barrel loaded with carpet tacks, formally known as a shredder round.;) It will really ruin an intruders whole day:tex

[BC Lightning]

My home defense weapon of choice...

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/Rossi.jpg

Our line of defense

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/MichaelBic38/IMG_0092.jpg

[BC Lightning]

after seing the pics posted I feel its time to mod the 12 guage

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/MichaelBic38/IMG_0098.jpg

Here is one of the pistols my dad won at the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation last fall, 454 Casuall, this is the big brother to Dirty Harry's 44 Magnum :D

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/MichaelBic38/IMG_0099.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/MichaelBic38/IMG_0100.jpg

This is what we carry in the Colorado Mountains when Elk Hunting, Dirty Harry's lil brother, 44 Magnum Mountain Gun

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/MichaelBic38/IMG_0101.jpg