E85 convert

[tiffo60]

Ive been doing some searching and cant really find any real answers. I have been talking to some people that run E85 and it seems like a worth while conversion. They say its 105 octane so you can run more timing but it does require you to run 30% more fuel in your tune. The couple of people I talked to that was running it were buying it at some gas stations in south fort worth that were starting to carry it and paying 1.85 to 2.00 a gallon for it. I have the room at my place to store a 1000 gallon fuel cell so I could buy in bulk and more than likely get it for 1.50 or cheaper a gallon. So after the initial cost of the conversion I cant see any ill effects, more octance means more timing which inturn means more power and last but not least no detonation. You do have to add 30% more fuel in the tune but for the benefit your getting from it who cares. Yes we could just run race gas at 6+ dollars a gallon but why when you can do this for alot cheaper.

So my question is whats all needed to convert over to E85, parts wise?

[Silver_2000]

Alchohol attracts water - be carefule when storing it for water build up

I understaood you would need to change just about everything from the in tank pumps forward

Gaskets - lines- hoses - injectors ...

[SILVER2000SVT]

I was under the impression that it's something like 70% more fuel required at WOT?

One of the major things is that the stock 02 sensors can't read the fuel mixture range that E85 burns at. The stock 02's can only tell whether the mixture is rich lean or correct base around 14.7 A/F. With Ethanol you are wanting to burn at a lower number. When the truck goes into closed loop the o2's would be constantly telling the computer that the mixture is rich and would keep leaning it out way too lean to try and get to the 14.7.

It may be possible tune so that the computer is always running in open loop? I'm not sure this is a good idea because the computers ability to adjust for changing conditions goes away.

Just my $.02.

[wesman]

I was under the impression that it's something like 70% more fuel required at WOT?

One of the major things is that the stock 02 sensors can't read the fuel mixture range that E85 burns at. The stock 02's can only tell whether the mixture is rich lean or correct base around 14.7 A/F. With Ethanol you are wanting to burn at a lower number. When the truck goes into closed loop the o2's would be constantly telling the computer that the mixture is rich and would keep leaning it out way too lean to try and get to the 14.7.

It may be possible tune so that the computer is always running in open loop? I'm not sure this is a good idea because the computers ability to adjust for changing conditions goes away.

Just my $.02.

Not sure where you got the 70% #, it's not close to that. I have heard/read that it's around 20%. So, your parts would have to handle 20% more fuel than it is currently pushing.

All the tuning stuff/open loop is easily bypassed via SCT or other tuning software.

[wesman]

Alchohol attracts water - be carefule when storing it for water build up

I understaood you would need to change just about everything from the in tank pumps forward

Gaskets - lines- hoses - injectors ...


Why would you have to change them? Do you mean once they wear out(which they will more quickly that normal) ?

--wes

[wesman]

Ive been doing some searching and cant really find any real answers. I have been talking to some people that run E85 and it seems like a worth while conversion. They say its 105 octane so you can run more timing but it does require you to run 30% more fuel in your tune. The couple of people I talked to that was running it were buying it at some gas stations in south fort worth that were starting to carry it and paying 1.85 to 2.00 a gallon for it. I have the room at my place to store a 1000 gallon fuel cell so I could buy in bulk and more than likely get it for 1.50 or cheaper a gallon. So after the initial cost of the conversion I cant see any ill effects, more octance means more timing which inturn means more power and last but not least no detonation. You do have to add 30% more fuel in the tune but for the benefit your getting from it who cares. Yes we could just run race gas at 6+ dollars a gallon but why when you can do this for alot cheaper.

So my question is whats all needed to convert over to E85, parts wise?

That's cheap, for some reason the Kroger out here thinks it's gold and they want 2.7x a gallon I think.

--wes

[L8 APEX]

You're chasing rabbits Titt. With the late freezes there is a shortage in corn and it is within 30 cents of gas now. It is only available at 2-3 stations in Dallas period. It also gets worse mileage and power. It is cleaner it is not better. I don't give a hoot about cleaner. There is a lot more to gas than an octane number.

[wesman]

You're chasing rabbits Titt. With the late freezes there is a shortage in corn and it is within 30 cents of gas now. It is only available at 2-3 stations in Dallas period. It also gets worse mileage and power. It is cleaner it is not better. I don't give a hoot about cleaner. There is a lot more to gas than an octane number.


I'll have to disagree with one point, it definitely doesn't get lower power output. While it takes more fuel to make the power, the power generated is far superior to pump gas.

--wes

[L8 APEX]

What good is a little more energy if you have to burn more of it. They were covering E85 yesterday on channel 4 or 5. Saying how folks switched to save money and now with the corn prices so high they are spending more than gas if you count their worse fuel economy.
It sounds pretty dangerous putting that stuff into a gasoline vehicle...
The primary differences from non-FFVs is the elimination of bare magnesium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium), aluminum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum), and rubber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber)stainless steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel) fuel lines (sometimes lined with plastic), the selection of stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terne) fuel tanks, and, in some cases, the use of acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc), as well as flame arrestors (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flame_arrestor&action=edit) positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used. parts in the fuel system, the use of fuel pumps capable of operating with electrically conductive (ethanol) instead of non-conducting dielectric (gasoline) fuel, specially-coated wear-resistant engine parts, fuel injection control systems having a wider range of pulse widths (for injecting approximately 60% more fuel).
It would place a hell of a load on the injectors, they would need to be upsized to 75-90lbs just to keep up, not to mention the fuel line upgrades etc..
Results compared against a gasoline-only vehicle were essentially the same, about a 25% reduction in volumetric fuel economy with E85.
Wow, a 25% reduction in fuel ecomony, where do I sign up! I have way too much fuel economy as is..
E85 has an octane rating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating) of 105, which is higher than typical commercial gasoline mixtures (octane ratings of 85 to 98); however, it does not burn as efficiently in traditionally-manufactured internal-combustion engines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal-combustion_engine). Additionally, E85 contains less energy per volume as compared to gasoline. Although E85 contains only 72% of the energy on a gallon-for-gallon basis compared to gasoline, experimenters have seen slightly better fuel mileage (http://www.ethanol.org/documents/ACEFuelEconomyStudy.pdf) than the 28% this difference in energy content implies. For example, recent tests by the National Renewable Energy Lab on fleet vehicles owned by the state of Ohio showed about a 25% reduction in mpg.

[L8 APEX]

farksticks. Had to throw one in for Steve:D

[Silver_2000]

Why would you have to change them? Do you mean once they wear out(which they will more quickly that normal) ?

--wes

The alcohol attacks the seals

Google knows everything ...

Keep in mind this is from people that want it to work - they are promoting E85

http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/conversion.php

CAN A VEHICLE BE CONVERTED TO OPERATE ON E85?
Response:
This is a common question that is asked of the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition. Unfortunately, there is no simple answer. In the strictest sense, yes, a vehicle that was designed to operate on unleaded gasoline only could be converted to operate on E85. Realistically, the conversion is extremely difficult. Below explains the reasoning.

During the 1980’s and early 1990’s, many small companies were formed that were altering gasoline powered vehicles to operate on other forms of fuels such as propane, compressed natural gas, 85 percent ethanol, and 85 percent methanol. The marketing program of these conversion companies was based on the premise that it was cheaper to operate a vehicle on alternative fuels. However, the vehicles being converted were engineered, designed and built to operate on unleaded only. Shortly after the emergence of the “conversion firms” the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) determined that when converted from gasoline to another form of fuel, the exhaust emissions from these converted vehicles were often much “dirtier” than prior to conversion. See explanation regarding EPA Memo 1A. The use of alternative fuels in the transportation sector has been built around the objectives of using cleaner, non-gasoline based components.
Based on the federal authority provided to the EPA through the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990, the EPA implemented regulations that required the exhaust emissions from vehicles converted to run on alternative fuels be “as clean as the exhaust emissions of the original gasoline equipment.” That is, if Ford Motor Company manufactured a vehicle to meet federal emissions standards on gasoline, a company converting that vehicle to operate on propane, must be able to certify that the emissions from the converted vehicle was as good as the original. A process to certify such after-market equipment was initiated and ultimately, few if any conversion kits were able to qualify.
Today, 99.9 percent of the vehicles that are capable of operating on alternative transportation fuels are produced by the original equipment manufacturers such as Ford, General Motors, and DaimlerChrysler. Engineers from these companies are able to design and build vehicles that meet the EPA exhaust emission standards. These companies also are required to warranty the exhaust emissions from these vehicles for 10 years or 100,000 miles, something very few conversion companies are able to accomplish. However, as you will read below, that might be changing

IS IT POSSIBLE TO CONVERT A VEHICLE THAT WAS DESIGNED FOR GASOLINE TO OPERATE ON E85?
Yes. However, there are no conversions or after-market parts that have been certified by the EPA as meeting the standards to maintain clean exhaust emissions. Technically speaking, converting a vehicle that was designed to operate on unleaded gasoline only to operate on another form of fuel is a violation of the federal law and the offender may be subject to significant penalties. No after-market conversion company has successfully certified an E85 kit that would allow a gasoline vehicle to operate on 85 percent ethanol.
The differences in fuel injector size, air-fuel ratio, PCM calibrations, material composition of the fuel lines, pumps and tanks are just a few of the components that contribute to making an E85 conversion extremely complex. It is our understanding that at least one company is working to obtain EPA certification. We will monitor the situation closely, understanding the certification process can be time consuming, difficult and expensive.

How to run your LS1 on E85
http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33448

Boy I hope Mark reads the LS1 post....Some of the best pseudo science / bad baseless assumptions Ive read in years..


What about fuel system corrosion?
Corrosion does not appear to be an issue with modern OBDII cars. They are all certified by the manufactures to be safe to use on 10% ethanol fuel blends, and industry insiders say they are safe for much higher percentages. You don't install components that are "sorta safe" with a chemical, you put in a fuel hose etc. that is ethanol safe for concentrations well above what you expect to use. Not to mention that folks have been talking for years about raising the ethanol level to 20% or more.

So what he means is that in his opinion if something is designed to work for 10% ethanol 85% or 100% ethanol will be just fine ... You wouldn't build it to be SORTA safe...

[L8 APEX]

alcohol is hard on fuel system components.

[Silver_2000]

cant miss this from the Ls1 post


4. To save valueble "tuningtime" use HPTuners and change your Stoich AFR to 9.799 (look at picture).

http://img1.putfile.com/main/11/30908341441.jpg

I guess were assuming that the stock narrow band o2 will read 85% ethanol at 60% of designed AF ?? wow

Here is a reply later in the same thread... this guy is my hero
The BIG problem I have with this stuff is more economics. Is it cheaper right now? Yes....you know why? Cuz the government ( Your tax dollars) is subsidizing it. Well ****....The Government is subsidizing it to get it "off the ground" then they will not subsidize it anymore...and with the very fact it is more expensive to refine than petrol....the cost will exceed petrol when the subsidies cease. That and it get like 30% less MPG than gas and you got a big ol ball of inefficient **** sandwich you got to tune constantly to run, is more expensive, but your kyrptonite fuel plumbing only cost you $3000 dollars and looks good http://www.ls1.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif
Sicky? Sticky my ass....should go into the bullshit hall of fame.

[wesman]

What good is a little more energy if you have to burn more of it.


It's the same with race gas of any kind, you have to burn more of it to get the power because it burns faster than pump gas. Here's a chart for you ....fark it, can't get the chart to work.....too much trouble )


Here's an excerpt :

ENERGY VALUE is an expression of the total heat energy contained in a given amount of a fuel, expressed as British Thermal Units per pound (BTU/lb). The total amount of heat energy that is available to make horsepower depends on the Net Energy Value of the fuel. This is found by taking the raw energy value of the fuel and then multiplying that by the amount of fuel that can be burned. The ideal air/fuel ratio for a fuel is called its stoichiometric. The lower the stoichiometric, the more fuel is burned and the more power can be produced.

[L-Fever]

farksticks. Had to throw one in for Steve:D

:rll:

[L8 APEX]

Race fuel burns slower than gasoline, much slower. That is why you need more compression and spark to ignite it. Gasoline would burn on the upstroke of a race engine.