Red Light cameras new job......hmm

[Ohmsby]

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/18/1886.asp

seems we are headed toward the slippery slope interestingly enough we had this discussion in 2006

http://www.talonclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11614&highlight=red+light+camera

I am just a little concerned with our willingness to abandon our civil liberties

PS flame suit on

[98Cobra]

Looks like everyone is ready to abandon civil liberties...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3422372&page=1

Should be telling that when Habeus Corpus was removed there was barely a whimper of protest.

Papers please!

[Mark #2]

Almost all HD TVs have embedded cameras in them already.

Why to you think HD is being pushed so quickly into mainstream...so you can be monitored in your own home of course:tex

[98Cobra]

Dont scare people like that. :D

[Ohmsby]

Almost all HD TVs have embedded cameras in them already.

Why to you think HD is being pushed so quickly into mainstream...so you can be monitored in your own home of course:tex

:eek:I'm getting rid of all my porn......

[Shiner1]

Playing devils advocate here for a minute. If you are a law-abiding citizen minding your own business why do you care. Just for arguments sake and lets assume that the system works the way it's supposed to. If some of the cameras deter crime, some cameras deter red-light runners and everyone is safer and maybe a few lives are saved how does that intrude on your everyday life?

[Mark #2]

Dont scare people like that. :D
I am not scaring, just informing that the technology is there, your TV can be a reverse projector(i.e. a camera).:tex

[gagspa]

Playing devils advocate here for a minute. If you are a law-abiding citizen minding your own business why do you care. Just for arguments sake and lets assume that the system works the way it's supposed to. If some of the cameras deter crime, some cameras deter red-light runners and everyone is safer and maybe a few lives are saved how does that intrude on your everyday life?
That's exactly how it starts. People say "It doesn't affect me, so I don't care". Slowly the line gets pushed closer and closer and eventually it does affect you, but by then it is too late.

[Mark #2]

That's exactly how it starts. People say "It doesn't affect me, so I don't care". Slowly the line gets pushed closer and closer and eventually it does affect you, but by then it is too late.
Could you provide an example please?

[98Cobra]

Start with the fire at the Reichstag in 1933, and just follow the timeline. I think that since it has actually happened in the past (a whole bunch of people being slowly stripped of their rights), this thread isn't technically Godwined.

I realize its a long way from RLC to the Nazis, but I guess we have to ask ourselves if permanently trading any of our rights away actually makes us any safer?

[Sandman]

Playing devils advocate here for a minute. If you are a law-abiding citizen minding your own business why do you care. Just for arguments sake and lets assume that the system works the way it's supposed to. If some of the cameras deter crime, some cameras deter red-light runners and everyone is safer and maybe a few lives are saved how does that intrude on your everyday life?


Here are a few of the common arguments:

If I'm not doing anything wrong, then you have no cause to watch me.
Because the government gets to define what's wrong, and they keep changing the definition.
Because you might do something wrong with my information.
Who watches the watchers?
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[03LightningRocks]

LOL...we are talking about video surveillance in PUBLIC, not in your front yard. This does not affect the rights of any law abiding citizen. The slippery slope argument is paranoia at it's worst. This ain't Nazi Germany...and Americans aren't a bunch of flaming German fags. If the Government pushes it to far and it starts affecting law abiding citizens...there will be a rebellion.

I'll tell you who you need to be worried about. Worry about the ACLU. Those wack jobs have become nothing more than a vocal group for anything and everything perverted and wrong. Those sum bitches will take our country to sh!t if we allow it. Any issue they are against...I know I am going to be for it....

[Shiner1]

Thanks Rocks. Thats the point I was trying to make. If you are not breaking the law...you don't have anything to worry about.

[Ohmsby]

Could you provide an example please?


patriot act..... and on the tax side maybe the AMT

I think a lot of examples can be found. Luckily the country tends to swing the pendulum back towards the middle if it goes to far one way or the other.

It seems to me lately a lot of individual rights are being circumvented for the "greater good".

These camera's most certainly can be used to see into your yard or maybe a window and defining that expectation of privacy is getting a little blurred.

The last thing I want is someone looking in my bedroom window and see removing the tag from my mattress I've heard it's a felony:icon_mrgreen:

[STooPiD]

build a higher fence... close your blinds... put sun screens on your windows... quit running around outside naked knana snorting cocain :icon_cool: and flipping off little kids :nono:... you should be just fine :tu:

[Ohmsby]

build a higher fence... close your blinds... put sun screens on your windows... quit running around outside naked knana snorting cocain :icon_cool: and flipping off little kids :nono:... you should be just fine :tu:

then what would I do for fun:nana2

[BigBobsL]

Sorry, you are already behind the times. Many cop cars are already outfitted with infared cameras that can see you and what you are doing in great detail right through your walls, no window or warrant needed.:icon_eek:

[98Cobra]

Sorry, you are already behind the times. Many cop cars are already outfitted with infared cameras that can see you and what you are doing in great detail right through your walls, no window or warrant needed.:icon_eek:

Fortunately, so far, that is a violation of your 4th Amendment rights. So anything they "see" can not be used against you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo_v._United_States

[Mark #2]

Sorry, you are already behind the times. Many cop cars are already outfitted with infared cameras that can see you and what you are doing in great detail right through your walls, no window or warrant needed.:icon_eek:

I know where they came from too.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1992SPIE.1735...17H

[03LightningRocks]

Sorry, you are already behind the times. Many cop cars are already outfitted with infared cameras that can see you and what you are doing in great detail right through your walls, no window or warrant needed.:icon_eek:

This is what I would call a violation of a persons privacy and is total bullsh!t. I don't however feel this is the same as cameras monitoring PUBLIC places.

I had a conversation today with a fellow about the cameras in public places. He was all about how this violates his rights and blah, blah, blah....LOL. The reason I had to LOL? Three years ago his car got jacked in a parking lot. They stole his stereo and busted his window doing it. Back then...he spent several minutes bitching about the parking lot in the mall not having video surveilance. I guess it would be a violation of your rights...unless it helps to catch the sum bitch that focks you over...:rll:.

[98Cobra]

A mall parking lot is a public place, but still private property. I would expect them to have cameras.

I guess the biggest fear about them being everywhere is that the potential to abuse them is there. If you are a woman going for a walk, do you want some government lackey, say, equivalent to the geniuses who do airport security, ogling you remotely? Does that seem right to you? How do you stop that? Put cameras watching the watchers? And then who watches THOSE guys?

Its already apparent that the government has abused PATRIOT Act provisions since they were granted, so they dont exactly have a great track record.

[03LightningRocks]

snip....... If you are a woman going for a walk, do you want some government lackey, say, equivalent to the geniuses who do airport security, ogling you remotely? Does that seem right to you? How do you stop that? Put cameras watching the watchers? And then who watches THOSE guys?

snip.....


So your concern is that some dude is going to check out your chick? I am pretty sure that every other hard dick a girl walks in front of is sizing her up. That's what guys do. I am against x-ray cameras looking through folks clothing...but that is not the same,(in my mind anyway), as video surveillance of a public place.

[tiffo60]

So your concern is that some dude is going to check out your chick? I am pretty sure that every other hard dick a girl walks in front of is sizing her up. That's what guys do. I am against x-ray cameras looking through folks clothing...but that is not the same,(in my mind anyway), as video surveillance of a public place.

I think he was actually meaning the guys running the cameras would more th likely be more busy hunting out tail to look at than doing the job that the camera's were designed for which in turn is defeating the purpose:cool:

[Ohmsby]

x ray machines on red light camera's no could never happen or
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6309917.stm

[STooPiD]

Sorry, you are already behind the times. Many cop cars are already outfitted with infared cameras that can see you and what you are doing in great detail right through your walls, no window or warrant needed.:icon_eek:

Yeah, but I'm cold blooded... and keep the house at a steamy 50 degrees. Try to catch me NOW!!!

[98Cobra]

So your concern is that some dude is going to check out your chick? I am pretty sure that every other hard dick a girl walks in front of is sizing her up. That's what guys do. I am against x-ray cameras looking through folks clothing...but that is not the same,(in my mind anyway), as video surveillance of a public place.

Well, I dont want my tax money going to get some slack-jawed dude his rocks off.

Other abuses are possible (because keep in mind what kind of people will be hired to watch all these cameras). I read about recently some people that would read the Obits in the paper, then find the person's home and burglarize it when they were at the funeral! How much easier would that be if you had an "in" at gubmint video shack!

[Shiner1]

I think he was actually meaning the guys running the cameras would more th likely be more busy hunting out tail to look at than doing the job that the camera's were designed for which in turn is defeating the purpose:cool:

So lets disband all law enforcement because a few cops have not done the right thing.....At some point you have to trust the people who are tasked with public safety. We trust cops, the TSA, any agency. You can't shoot down an idea/system that may safe lives because some guy/gal is looking at a hot chick/dude on video.

[SILVER2000SVT]

In general I have fairly strong liberterian political view where I wish the government would butt out of everything. However, I would be ok with the cameras as long as they weren't monitored by people and the recordings would be secured and allowed only under court order. I mean what if someone carjacked you at the intersection, wouldn't some video go a long way to catching the SOB?

On of the biggest possibilities for injustice I see is when the monitoring is done by private companies that get a cut of the ticket money. They start manipulating the cycle times of the red, green, yellow to get more tickets. I've already seen this on the news where this is already happening when the cities turn over the monitoring.

[98Cobra]

So lets disband all law enforcement because a few cops have not done the right thing.....At some point you have to trust the people who are tasked with public safety. We trust cops, the TSA, any agency. You can't shoot down an idea/system that may safe lives because some guy/gal is looking at a hot chick/dude on video.

I don't think that not wanting constant video surveilliance equals wanting total lawlessness and anarchy.

But thinking "oh, we just have to trust them!" is a bit misguided.

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2007/07/exigentinvestigation

Trusting TSA seems to be a bad idea as well, since they have no clue what they are doing. They are good at catching you taking bottled water through security though.

http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=12511

[Shiner1]

I don't think that not wanting constant video surveilliance equals wanting total lawlessness and anarchy.

But thinking "oh, we just have to trust them!" is a bit misguided.

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2007/07/exigentinvestigation

Trusting TSA seems to be a bad idea as well, since they have no clue what they are doing. They are good at catching you taking bottled water through security though.

http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=12511

I did'nt say that I wanted lawlessness. I was pointing out that one view against video cameras was that some people who monitor the video might us it for less than honorable intentions and that's no reason for trashing the whole concept. We still have and believe in police officers even though some have abused their power. In regards to video monitors, some form of screening and training should be implemented before those folks are put into that position. At that point you hold those people accountable for miss use of the position. Not some 16yr old looking for summer work. Again the TSA is just an example of an agency that the masses have put their faith in to monitor travel safety. Obviously more training is needed. As to your comment "oh, we just have to trust them" Everyone is trusted to do their job. You, me, some jobs are more critical than others. I don't know what you do for a living but I'm in the medical field and my patients trust that I'm going to to the right thing by them. Blind faith, I don't know but trust none the less.

[98Cobra]

You work in the medical field - are there checks and balances in your line of work so that it can be assured you are doing your job the right way, without cutting corners, or being able to misuse your profession for illegal gain? Without knowing exactly what you do it is hard to compare.

And if the government, after a disaster like 9/11, and federalizing the security screeners, STILL cant get it right after 6 years, what makes you think a massive surveilliance program will be administered properly? LOL.

[Shiner1]

You work in the medical field - are there checks and balances in your line of work so that it can be assured you are doing your job the right way, without cutting corners, or being able to misuse your profession for illegal gain? Without knowing exactly what you do it is hard to compare.

And if the government, after a disaster like 9/11, and federalizing the security screeners, STILL cant get it right after 6 years, what makes you think a massive surveilliance program will be administered properly? LOL.

Garrett,

I don't think that the system is perfect and I don't want the federal govt. running a vidoe/security monitoring system here in Lewisville where we live. Let the city or local authorities monitor it. Hell they let us have booze, they can't be all bad. LOL All I was pointing out is that one persons view against a video system was that some jerk-off watching hot chicks instaed of a mugging was not a valid reason to throw the idea out the window. And yes of course there are some checks and balances in the medical field but the patients/family have to trust that you are going to do the right thing first. Should be more C&B in the govt.

[03LightningRocks]

I think he was actually meaning the guys running the cameras would more th likely be more busy hunting out tail to look at than doing the job that the camera's were designed for which in turn is defeating the purpose:cool:


Nothing he said even came close to this. Maybe he meant that if Dorothy clicks her heals together three times she will be back in Kansas.

[03LightningRocks]

You work in the medical field - are there checks and balances in your line of work so that it can be assured you are doing your job the right way, without cutting corners, or being able to misuse your profession for illegal gain? Without knowing exactly what you do it is hard to compare.

And if the government, after a disaster like 9/11, and federalizing the security screeners, STILL cant get it right after 6 years, what makes you think a massive surveilliance program will be administered properly? LOL.

Dude...you may have had too many doses of liberal democrat Koolaid. Let me help you out. The economy and the market is BOOMING. No terrorists strikes on US soil since the 9/11 attack. Seems to me something is working.

Oh yeah...and so far...none of mine or anyone I know of civil rights have been trampled by the new anti terrorist laws. A few rag heads have been slapped around...but that is nothing compared to what I want to do to them.

[03LightningRocks]

Garrett,

I don't think that the system is perfect and I don't want the federal govt. running a vidoe/security monitoring system here in Lewisville where we live. Let the city or local authorities monitor it. Hell they let us have booze, they can't be all bad. LOL All I was pointing out is that one persons view against a video system was that some jerk-off watching hot chicks instaed of a mugging was not a valid reason to throw the idea out the window. And yes of course there are some checks and balances in the medical field but the patients/family have to trust that you are going to do the right thing first. Should be more C&B in the govt.


Well said.....:bows.

[Ohmsby]

maybe terrorists did not commit the 9-11 attacks:tex.......

I am kidding:D

I probably would not use the success of the TSA as an argument these guys could not get out of a wet paper bag with a bulldozer.

How do you guys feel about the patriot act with its respect to intrusion of civil liberties especially the data mining that occurs with the NSA

I am a law abiding citizen but these things concern me :cool:

Rocks what flavors do the LD koollaid come in

[98Cobra]

Wow.



Dude...you may have had too many doses of liberal democrat Koolaid. Let me help you out. The economy and the market is BOOMING. No terrorists strikes on US soil since the 9/11 attack. Seems to me something is working.

Oh yeah...and so far...none of mine or anyone I know of civil rights have been trampled by the new anti terrorist laws. A few rag heads have been slapped around...but that is nothing compared to what I want to do to them.

Economy and market are booming, sure - but that has nothing to do with surveillance. And it is specious reasoning to say that just because there are no attacks, its because we are doing a good job preventing it.

I'd also like to point out that just because you don't think your rights have been trampled doesnt mean they havent. I already talked about losing habeus corpus earlier in the thread, basically that is the right to say "show me the proof" if you are accused of something. You don't think that is significant only because you havent had to use it yet.


I don't think that the system is perfect and I don't want the federal govt. running a vidoe/security monitoring system here in Lewisville where we live. Let the city or local authorities monitor it. Hell they let us have booze, they can't be all bad. LOL All I was pointing out is that one persons view against a video system was that some jerk-off watching hot chicks instaed of a mugging was not a valid reason to throw the idea out the window. And yes of course there are some checks and balances in the medical field but the patients/family have to trust that you are going to do the right thing first. Should be more C&B in the govt.

OK, so assuming the federal government stays out of it (which they wouldnt), if they announced that the first cameras to be installed in the city would be on your street, would you be happy? To some people, people might think it makes it safer - me, I would be wondering how bad crime must be on your street for it to need the camera. So that would have a net effect of lowering your property value. You are wrong on booze - Lewisville will let you buy beer and wine, but not booze. And they also wont let you drink anywhere after midnight (or 1am on Saturdays, oh boy!). That's a different discussion though. I merely through out the low paid employee using the camera as a masturbation tool rather than a crime fighting tool as but one example, but certainly there are many other ways it can be abused.

[03LightningRocks]

...........
Rocks what flavors do the LD koollaid come in

I am not sure, since I haven't had any yet. But I am thinking it is probably jism flavored, in order to appeal to the largest segment of the Liberal population....:D.

[Ohmsby]

Two points for using Jizm in a sentence where is Tex when you need him

I lean toward the conservative but usually try to side with common sense and this camera thing concerns me for some reason

That being said I have them at the house and the shop....

[03LightningRocks]

Two points for using Jizm in a sentence where is Tex when you need him

I lean toward the conservative but usually try to side with common sense and this camera thing concerns me for some reason

That being said I have them at the house and the shop....

Are you saying that Tex would be able to tell us what this jism(jizm?) flavored koolaid tastes like?:evil

On a more serious note, I really don't understand the concern over having cameras here and there in public. For one thing, if they do this, it will be in high crime areas. So I doubt the cameras will be pointing in any of our bedrooms. For another, last I heard, we all have a right to vote our government leaders in and out of office. The government can only do what we allow them to do, so I feel the "slippery slope" argument is invalid due to the fact that as soon as we the people feel they are abusing the cameras, we can vote for leaders that will stop the intrusion.

[Shiner1]

Wow.



Economy and market are booming, sure - but that has nothing to do with surveillance. And it is specious reasoning to say that just because there are no attacks, its because we are doing a good job preventing it.

I'd also like to point out that just because you don't think your rights have been trampled doesnt mean they havent. I already talked about losing habeus corpus earlier in the thread, basically that is the right to say "show me the proof" if you are accused of something. You don't think that is significant only because you havent had to use it yet.



OK, so assuming the federal government stays out of it (which they wouldnt), if they announced that the first cameras to be installed in the city would be on your street, would you be happy? To some people, people might think it makes it safer - me, I would be wondering how bad crime must be on your street for it to need the camera. So that would have a net effect of lowering your property value. You are wrong on booze - Lewisville will let you buy beer and wine, but not booze. And they also wont let you drink anywhere after midnight (or 1am on Saturdays, oh boy!). That's a different discussion though. I merely through out the low paid employee using the camera as a masturbation tool rather than a crime fighting tool as but one example, but certainly there are many other ways it can be abused.

Don't be so literal man...OK, beer and wine it was a joke. I had a drunk driver run through the brick wall behind my house and after he did it he left the scene in his vehicle. The best part was that he left his front plate in the rubble. Easy pickings for the police. Other than that, to the best of my knowledge my area has been pretty much crime free. I honestly don't think I would have a problem if my street was the first to have a camera. Anything or situation can be abused but is that a reason to nix the whole idea?

[98Cobra]

Anything or situation can be abused but is that a reason to nix the whole idea?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/11/ncctv111.xml

Even if it doesnt work?

On a side note, your house doesnt happen to back up to a gas station, does it?

[Shiner1]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/11/ncctv111.xml

Even if it doesnt work?

On a side note, your house doesnt happen to back up to a gas station, does it?

Not really. It backs up to Belaire. My housing area is at Belaire/Valley and there is a quick stop on the corner.

[98Cobra]

I was wondering, because there is a gas station at Garden Ridge and I-35 near my house that has a wall that backs up to some houses, and someone hit that wall a while back. :)

[Shiner1]

I was wondering, because there is a gas station at Garden Ridge and I-35 near my house that has a wall that backs up to some houses, and someone hit that wall a while back. :)

This jack-ass was coming out of an apartment complex across the street on wet roads and prolly gave it a little to much gas or his ass was just to drunk. Anyway he runs up over the curb and into the wall, which is my back fence. He knocks down a section and was able to drive to drive off. Like I said he left his front plate in the rubble. The cop almost wet himself laughing so hard. He called it in and waited there until another officer went by this guys house and picked him up. Except for the pile of bricks it was kind of funny. I'm just glad my kids were not in the pool/backyard when it happened. (2am)

[Mark #2]

I found this remarkable from one of the links posted.

"Britain has 4.2 million CCTV cameras, one for every 14 people,"
That would mean roughly a camera for every ~3 to 5 houses.

Equates to a camera every ~200 feet in Richardson.

[98Cobra]

I found this remarkable from one of the links posted.

"Britain has 4.2 million CCTV cameras, one for every 14 people,"
That would mean roughly a camera for every ~3 to 5 houses.

Equates to a camera every ~200 feet in Richardson.

And yet their crime rate continues to increase. Its so bad now that some previously jailable offences they are now just giving you a caution.

[03LightningRocks]

And yet their crime rate continues to increase. Its so bad now that some previously jailable offences they are now just giving you a caution.


That is because they are too strict about private gun ownership....:evil.

[wesman]

In general I have fairly strong liberterian political view where I wish the government would butt out of everything. However, I would be ok with the cameras as long as they weren't monitored by people and the recordings would be secured and allowed only under court order. I mean what if someone carjacked you at the intersection, wouldn't some video go a long way to catching the SOB?

On of the biggest possibilities for injustice I see is when the monitoring is done by private companies that get a cut of the ticket money. They start manipulating the cycle times of the red, green, yellow to get more tickets. I've already seen this on the news where this is already happening when the cities turn over the monitoring.


Cheers to Jason....this is the boat I'm on :beer:

--wes

[98Cobra]

That is because they are too strict about private gun ownership....:evil.

I definitely agree with you on that one :)

[Mark #2]

On kind of the same topic.

http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/2007/08/01/us_government_d.html

[Ohmsby]

forget red light camera's scroll down to the ULF blast

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1026.htm

:tex

I am always amazed by the crazy chit that comes out of the woodwork after a tragedy

[tiffo60]

forget red light camera's scroll down to the ULF blast

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1026.htm

:tex

I am always amazed by the crazy chit that comes out of the woodwork after a tragedy

sounds like to me someone was playing with the acoustical weapon at the college and accidently pressed the wrong button:tex

[98Cobra]

forget red light camera's scroll down to the ULF blast

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1026.htm

:tex

I am always amazed by the crazy chit that comes out of the woodwork after a tragedy

You said it.

Tin foil hats for sale, tin foil hats for sale!

[tiffo60]

Tin foil hats for sale, tin foil hats for sale!

I have an amradillo hat that is far more effective:icon_mrgreen:

[L8 APEX]

I got mine. I am also building an all mechanical vehicle with no electrical parts vulnerable to EMP weapons. So I will be able to moibilize after an attack:tex:tex:tex

[Shiner1]

I got mine. I am also building an all mechanical vehicle with no electrical parts vulnerable to EMP weapons. So I will be able to moibilize after an attack:tex:tex:tex
:rll:

[L8 APEX]

What's so funny, you know its gonna happen and all computer controlled devices will be useless. Everyday we have fewer and fewer non electrical controlled vehicles. But I will be ready!
Even Fast and Furiois 2 showed us the power of EMP weapons against our cars! Be prepared our day is coming!:tex

[tiffo60]

What's so funny, you know its gonna happen and all computer controlled devices will be useless. Everyday we have fewer and fewer non electrical controlled vehicles. But I will be ready!
Even Fast and Furiois 2 showed us the power of EMP weapons against our cars! Be prepared our day is coming!:tex

I will always have my grizzly, full mechanical and can be kick started if need be:icon_mrgreen:

[slick-svt]

I got mine. I am also building an all mechanical vehicle with no electrical parts vulnerable to EMP weapons. So I will be able to moibilize after an attack:tex:tex:tex
I have one too....a bicycle.....knana

[L8 APEX]

I'm gonna build a K5 Blazer good ol 350 parts.

[tiffo60]

edit

[tiffo60]

I'm gonna build a K5 Blazer good ol 350 parts.

i had one:icon_mrgreen:
http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/6085/truck.jpg

[Mark #2]

I'm gonna build a K5 Blazer good ol 350 parts.
I have the K5, but it would need points for the distributor and I have a points distributor from the 74. So I could make it run.
The 72 911 is ready, just has coils/capacitors, switching is all mechanical, just points.

[03LightningRocks]

OK then.....:rll::rll::rll: