CHL and concealed handguns

[dboat]

Ok gun guys, I am thinking of buying a dedicated concealed handgun.. my current inventory is a 30 year old 9mm Ruger revolver (6 shot) that I recently put rubber grips on.. its old, hasnt been shot much and I keep it by the bed. I have ordered a gun for the wife to have at the house, its a Taurus - The Judge, it shoots .410 shotgun shells and .45 regular shells out of the 5 shot revolver. It doesnt require anything special and you can run both shells at the same time in the gun.
http://www.taurustactical.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=199&category=Revolver

However, I think I would like to have a gun to carry with me.. so I want something that is dead reliable, very light, very small but will do the job.. I am also thinking that I want a hammerless gun as well.. I came across this offer and thought it was a pretty good deal.. however, I would like to hear from you guys.. the magazines make you think that everyone carries a 1911 of some sort, but I find them too big and heavy for this and face it, most shoot outs are done before you use 3 bullets.. I will get my CHL here, and then go to specialized training to use the gun locally. Btw, you only have to register here to get a CHL.


I like this one because of the size, and its titanium plus the laser grips
http://www.impactguns.com/store/725327601685.html

but I also like the hammerless design of this one.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/725327350996.html

I like the lifetime guarantee of the Taurus too.. the ability to put a laser on it is a good thing.. heck, it might even be a good deterrent too.

So chime in guys.. Brian, I would especially appreciate your thoughts on this too.

Dana

[Wht95Lightning]

I am not a fan of the laser grips. I've tried to like them but it takes longer to find the red dot than it does to look at the front sight.
That Taurus that you're calling hammerless is not really. It's got a "bobbed" hammer. If you try to fire it from inside a coat pocket, it's likely to get hung up on material. If you want a hammerless one, get the S&W model 642 or 442. I have one (642) and it's great. Lightweight and won't snag if drawing from a pocket.

Don't read gun magazines. They're no good for you. :tex

But, some of use DO carry 1911's. :cool:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff184/HV2_photos/BabyKimber003.jpg

[Silver_2000]

I think the quality of the Taurus has gone down

David N recently bought a Taurus and every time he fired it the magazine fell out

[my2002lightning]

Dana,

Try out some of the compact Glock, Para Ordnance, Kimber, H&K, etc various offerings. They can be had in many hammerless, polymer/alloy, high-capacity configurations. Don't necessarily limit yourself to a revolver, IMO. There are many very reliable, high-capacity big-bore autos out there.

You can't go wrong with a .45 as a man-stopper!:tu: Personally, I don't care for Taurus as they are a Beretta knock-off.

I've read that actual shoot-outs occur within 7 yards, 7 rounds and within 7 seconds.

Good luck.

[dboat]

Thanks guys, keep 'em coming..

The reason for the revolver is no magazine to worry about and the chance of it actually jamming is nil... Ronald, I had heard almost the same thing and that most of them happen within 3 shots or less.

Another story, is that semi autos have a hard time with firing and ejecting when at odd angles, increasing the chance of a jam.

You are right that the Taurus isnt completely hammerless.. what I was thinking is that with a laser and being almost hammerless, chances were that I would be able to get the gun out without it getting hung up and that when the laser beam is now beaming on someone, they would get the picture quickly and leave.. I have held a S&W with the Crimson Trace laser grips and thought it was nice. It was a snub nose .38.. which is enough for me..

I do appreciate all the feedback, as I will use it to make my decision.

Thanks
Dana

oh, keep posting please.

[L8 APEX]

lasers are all but useless. If anything you need a tactical light. I laser in the dark DOES NOT positively identify a target well enough to make the decision. A light is the only tool for the dark. Leave lasers for the movies and intimidation. You won't be aiming when defending yourself anyway, it will/should be instinct point and shoot. I haven't kept up with revolvers they are all but obsoleted these days. Autos jamming at angles is an old wise tale. Show me a cop, swat team, or military not using auto weapons. I doubt you will be shooting while doing a diving barrel roll across the floor anyway. If so Mel Gibson proved autos do this well.

[dboat]

lasers are all but useless. If anything you need a tactical light. I laser in the dark DOES NOT positively identify a target well enough to make the decision. A light is the only tool for the dark. Leave lasers for the movies and intimidation. You won't be aiming when defending yourself anyway, it will/should be instinct point and shoot. I haven't kept up with revolvers they are all but obsoleted these days. Autos jamming at angles is an old wise tale. Show me a cop, swat team, or military not using auto weapons. I doubt you will be shooting while doing a diving barrel roll across the floor anyway. If so Mel Gibson proved autos do this well.

Do you have a particular brand and model to suggest?

[L8 APEX]

Do you have a particular brand and model to suggest?
Buy a good dog:D

[slick-svt]

GO KIMBER or go home......:D

[dboat]

Buy a good dog:D

I have a great watch dog... Mike the Pomeranian..


with the wood and tile floors, he sounds like a 100+ lb ferocious dog outside:icon_mrgreen:

Dana

[Ohmsby]

Glock 36 45 cal is what I am currently carrying it is slim and lightweight. I switch back and forth between it and other's

The Glock is a good all around gun and user friendly. The 36 has a lot of recoil but that is the cost of it's dainty package.

You could go with the S&W 500 W 4 3/4" barrel it also has some recoil:D

[L-Fever]

I carry a light saber behind the seat! :icon_mrgreen:

[L8 APEX]

Same here, my Jedi powers are so strong I don't need a gun.
Kahr makes the most concealable autos their PM9 fits in the palm of your hand and is only one pound. They released a new CW9 last year that is a half inch larger each way and is under 400 bucks. Most Glocks are too fat or buck like a mule. The only Glock I would carry would be the G19 for vehicle or winter clothing carry.
I prefer the "Man on Fire" Denzel setup myself. A G17 in a FBI paddle holster and two 17rd mags on the other hip. All tucked neatly behind a long shirt.
http://media.movieweb.com/galleries/870/1618/lo/cog.jpg
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/artman/uploads/04.jpg

[tiffo60]

is the G17 the full auto model?

[L8 APEX]

is the G17 the full auto model?
No silly that is the G18

[tiffo60]

No silly that is the G18


I was close:icon_mrgreen:

[Beaudee]

1

[dboat]

I got a 357 taurus doub.action with a 4 in. barrell.Evertime i shoot mag loads the gun totally locks up.Cant open cyl..P.O.S.I bought it new about 15 years ago.Did that right out of the box.I can shoot 38 specials all day and no problems.I think they are made in Brazil.Best revolvers are Colt,Ruger in that order.My concealed carry:icon_mrgreen:http://handguns.g00net.org/Colt/Colt_Anaconda.jpg

I have heard that about the older Taurus', but I have read and heard nothing but good things about the newer models..
I think your concealed handgun would be good for Andre' the giant.. but not for me..

Thanks
Dana

[dboat]

I did some research on the PM9, per Terry's post.. it looks pretty good, but what are the implications of a DAO gun?

Dana

[SIL02SVT]

Here is a link to a CHL forum and to the thread about daily carry with many pics and specs. This might give you an idea or two. I myself carry a fullsize 1911 Springfield armory Loaded Custom in a IWB(In Waist Band) leather holster. I also carry a XD40 in a shoulder rig during the winter months when I wear a jacket. I just like how thin the 1911 is.

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4427

[Beaudee]

I have heard that about the older Taurus', but I have read and heard nothing but good things about the newer models..
I think your concealed handgun would be good for Andre' the giant.. but not for me..

Thanks
Dana

I dont use 44 mag..Those are rediculous.I use 44 special.I prefer revolver over auto.. for concealed.icon_mrgreen:

[SIL02SVT]

I dont use 44 mag..Those are rediculous.I use 44 special.I prefer revolver over auto.. for concealed.One shot one "STOP"

Fixed :tu: You'll get yourself in trouble saying that other stuff

[L8 APEX]

I did some research on the PM9, per Terry's post.. it looks pretty good, but what are the implications of a DAO gun?

Dana
When you pull the trigger it goes bang, no safeties, no hammers to cock etc. Point and pull...easy.

[jeff56]

When you pull the trigger it goes bang, no safeties, no hammers to cock etc. Point and pull...easy.

Main advantage is that it's the same consistent pull each and every time, unlike most semi's, where you get a long first pull in DA and then every pull thereafter is single.

The Kahr PM9 is a hard gun to beat for concealed carry - that's my choice. I alternate between that and my G19 depending on what I'm wearing and where I'm going. I'm personally happy carrying 9 for concealed carry - some would argue its underpowered, but it's something I will carry versus a .45 that would be bigger and heavier and therefore easier for me not to mess with.

Those Kimber's are nice - I looked at some of the Ultra carry's a while back, but we can't do single action. That's a beautiful model in particular, Gary. If I was a 1911 guy, they'd be hard to beat. How's your luck with it been?

I'm an armorer for Para-Ordnance and while magnificently shooting guns, I wouldn't give 2 cents for one unless it was for range duty only. Super tight tolerances = greater accuracy, but in my experience, more stoppages too. Also, they make a lot of their parts from cintered metal and I've experienced mucho problems with breakage.

Dboat, I can't offer an iota of input on their performance or reliability, but you might also want to reserach Springfield's XD series. I know a while back they were offering a really nice package deal where each gun came with 2 or 3 magazines, a Bladetech holster and magazine pouch as well as a taclight.

[Moonshine]

Brian, I would especially appreciate your thoughts on this too.


Certainly. My back up/off duty gun these days is the Kahr PM9, (like Terry suggested). If you want an auto pistol it's hard to beat for concealed carry (like Jeff said).

But, I carried a Smith & wesson 642 for 6 years as a backup gun, and it gets my vote as the best lightweight, shoot from your pocket, carry it all the time revolver out there. The titanium and scandium revolvers are hideously expensive, and they also recoil heavily with +p .38 Special loads.

The 442/642, like the PM9, is right at 16 oz. loaded, which is just about perfect for an ankle/pocket gun (like Gary said). These days (with the advances in bullets in the past 20 years) I'm perfectly comfortable with a 9mm for a handgun cartridge. I've never been as confident in the .38 Special, but if put in the right place at arm's distance it'd do.

The Taurus .38's have always seemed heavier and larger than they needed to be, and even on a good day they're not as refined and smooth as a S&W J frame. For a non-gun enthusiast who wants a gun they can carry all the time I'd go with the S&W 442/642. Spend the $40 to get a decent trigger job, paint the front sight with orange model paint, get a decent pocket holster, a Galco ankle glove, and a couple of Bianchi Speed Strips and you're set.

[slick-svt]

I dont use 44 mag..Those are rediculous.I use 44 special.I prefer revolver over auto.. for concealed.One shot one kill:icon_mrgreen:

I DO......:evil

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/thumbs/army_of_one.jpg (http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/21367)

[dboat]

This is my 5600th post on Talon.. I want to thank you guys for really coming thru for me on this one.. you have been so helpful. I will have a bit to mull over and consider.. seems that you guys like the S&W and the Kahr..I have also heard good things about Kimbers and Springfield. I will see if I can go shoot one of each before I make a final decision. I am still leaning towards getting a crimson trace laser in it.. I know this goes against Terry's advice, but I do think they offer some level of deterrence.

Some of the decision will be price, but some of it will have to be on the size and weight of the gun.. remember, this is not something that I will be shooting a lot, but rather just enough to stay proficient with.. I have already looked up a local school that offers three levels of handgun training.. the wife and I will be going.. its put on by an ex Marine. The wife still gets the Taurus Judge gun, because frankly, it shoots shotgun shells and its designed for close in work, meaning it sprays those BB's out fast..

:tu::tu:
Dana

[Silver_2000]

I have heard that about the older Taurus', but I have read and heard nothing but good things about the newer models..

Thanks
Dana
Except david whos mag fell out every time

[Moonshine]

Dana,

Our collective advice is worth what you paid for it. :rolleyes:

The bottom line is that you are best served by whatever feels best to YOU and KIM, not necessarily what works best for others.

Try some guns out, and go with what feels good to you.

And don't forget a few cardinal rules;
1. Handguns are for days when we're not expecting a fight. We carry them because they're convenient and easily concealed, not because they're the weapon of choice for a gunfight.
2. An "underpowered" handgun that you have with you when you need it is far more useful than the most potent megablaster that's sitting on the nightstand because it's too big/heavy/imconvenient to carry when you're just running to the corner for a loaf of bread.
3. $100 spent on practice ammo and range time is worth $1000 of tricked out gun.
4. The only goal that matters is to survive. Everything else is secondary.

Stay safe, shoot straight, and die of natural causes. :tu:

[gagspa]

My daily carry is a Colt 1911 Officers in stainless. I use a Concealco inside the waistband holster and don't even know it is there. I occasionally carry a Kimber Eclipse Pro II in a Brommeland outside the waistband holster. The longer handle makes it more difficult to conceal as does the holster.

If you get a decent holster and belt you won't even notice the added weight.

I'm currently looking into a Kahr or Baby Glock for an ankle carry back-up. The wife is looking at a Keltec P3AT for a purse/pocket gun.

[Beaudee]

.

[SIL02SVT]

I am still leaning towards getting a crimson trace laser in it.. I know this goes against Terry's advice, but I do think they offer some level of deterrence.


Just wondering what you mean by deterrent?

[Beaudee]

Scare em with the red dot.]

[dboat]

The P3AT is a nice gun too.. very small and compact..

Thanks
Dana

[dboat]

Just wondering what you mean by deterrent?

It seems to me, and it has been posted on some gun forums, that if you have someone threatening you, inside the house or not, if they see that little red dot on them.. well, they get the picture that you arent going to miss and that you mean business.

I hope and pray I would never have to use a gun in self defense, but believe me, if put in the situation, I have no qualms about using one.

Dana

[L8 APEX]

Scaring them with a laser is BS all it can do is get you in more trouble. You don't point guns at people to scare them.

[dboat]

Scaring them with a laser is BS all it can do is get you in more trouble. You don't point guns at people to scare them.

ok, but if it saves me 1 to1.5 seconds in trying to aim a small gun at close quarters, its definitely worth it. I like my chances better with me getting the red dot on someone rather than trying to aim it through the sights.

[L8 APEX]

You definitely need some CQB training. You just don't grasp the aiming deal. When you are in a gunfight you don't have time or the ambient light to use sights. You will likely be running for your life for cover etc it ain't target practice. It falls back to your training, instinct and muscle memory. Maybe a taser would be a better choice, they have lasers:tex.

[SIL02SVT]

Scaring them with a laser is BS all it can do is get you in more trouble. You don't point guns at people to scare them.

Thats exactly what I was going to say you never point a gun at something or someone that you haven't already decided you were going to destroy. You should have that all worked out in your mind before you ever pull your weapon. Pulling your weapon and not using it will get you in more trouble then pulling it and using it for the right cause.

[SIL02SVT]

You definitely need some CQB training. You just don't grasp the aiming deal. When you are in a gunfight you don't have time or the ambient light to use sights. You will likely be running for your life for cover etc it ain't target practice. It falls back to your training, instinct and muscle memory. Maybe a taser would be a better choice, they have lasers:tex.
Also like Terry said it is muscle memory if you practice at a close range of pulling your weapon from your holster and using your finger as a aiming guide. I don't really know how to explain this but i'll try. I you were to use your hand as a gun and you pull it out and point at something probably 8times out of 10 if you were firing a weapon you would hit what ever you were pointing at with your finger. its like a natural aim so if you practice this in short distances just drawing and use your finger as a natural aiming system (If this makes any since to you) you won't need that laser. I know terry probably knows what i'm talking about maybe he can explain it better than I.

P.S. I also don't want to come off as being rude or a know it all, i'm just trying to let you know what my CHL instructor taught me. Sorry I never have a way with words. I'm only 23 I'm sure you guys have a ton of more experience than I just trying to share the little I know.

[StormShadow]

what do yall think of the colt new agent series 90 .45?

[L8 APEX]

I have not kept up with Colts. I have never been a fan of the has-been 45 caliber. I don't care for the heavy, cranky, low capacity, heavy steel guns that they make.
Most Colts have to be sent directly to a gunsmith to be worked over so they will function semi reliably. Ethan's dad got him an officer's model and they spent 400 bucks and 5 months with gunsmithing to make it work. He reworked the ramp and chamber and had the magazines fitted to the pistol so it would feed reliably. Most are also single action, hammers are for the wild west anymore.

[tiffo60]

i found you a girl terry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O14JsggUFI

[Wht95Lightning]

There's a reason 1911's have been in use for a century. Don't blame the design, Terry. Any manufacturer can make crap. Colt has had some QC issues in the past and so had Kahr and Ford Motor Co for that matter. Any time something is mass produced, there can be problems.

Anyway, this is for you. :icon_razz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/PWhite777/glockv1911.jpg

[tiffo60]

heres a site that has some nice guns:icon_mrgreen:

http://www.gunrunnersusa.com/sal.htm

[Ohmsby]

We have two large dogs and the wife has the pepper spray that is used to fend off bears by the forest service.

I travel a lot and I don't think a firearm would be the correct choice for her. I do believe the pepper spray in that quantity would be a deterrent if the canines were not.

Remember triple ought buck is 8 .36 inch balls per shell. One only need to aim in the direction of an attacker in the home

[L8 APEX]

Good post John, Some folks are better off with other defenses than a firearms. Good choice:tu: My mom is the same way, much better off without a gun around. She would just be a statistic of a victim of their own gun.

[Mark #2]

Fortunately or unfortunately, I haven't decided yet, the SO is ridiculously good with guns.

Which still amazes her brother, who taught/teaches her a couple times a year.
He shoots almost every day, builds, buys, trades, collects, sights them for others etc. You get the idea, the local gun expert.

She beat us again at Christmas shooting his new gun..both by ~1/32".
Her mom and sister were off by ~1/4"
We were target shooting and measuring each shot...not much to do in southern IL, but you do it in the back yard with the neighbors.

There are guns in every room/every house in southern IL that I been in.
They don't lock anything and leave the keys in the cars. They have garage door opener buttons mounted on the outside of the house.

They just aren't concerned about security/safety.

Any correlation to knowing your neighbor/great grandma is armed and will miss by 1/4"?

[dboat]

Now that I have thought about it for a while and have done a bit more research. I will probably buy two guns.. the Taurus and the Kel-Tec. The Kel-tec is more of an experiment than anything else, but the gun is so small and light I just cant pass it up for now.. it may end up being a nothing gun, but I am willing to give it a try..

Thanks guys for all of your help.
Dana

[Moonshine]

Dana,

Your $$, your guns, but be wary of the Kel-Tec's. Several of our guys have bought them and been very disappointed in the quality and reliability.

[gagspa]

My wife finally took her CHL class yesterday and the instructor somehow managed to convince her that she really needed a .40 or bigger and that purse carry is not a good idea. I've been trying to convince her of that same thing for months!!!! Hopefully now she has given up on that stupid Beretta Tomcat. Now she is looking at an XD40 Subcompact in for an ankle carry or maybe a Taurus or S&W .38 Special. She is still tossing around the idea of a Bersa .380 in a purse when she can't carry something bigger.

[dboat]

Dana,

Your $$, your guns, but be wary of the Kel-Tec's. Several of our guys have bought them and been very disappointed in the quality and reliability.

Brian, I really appreciate the advice.. but I am getting this one just for fun and to see what its all about.. I might have to send it back a few times or take it to a gunsmith to get it squared away.. but at a $200+ pricepoint, its just hard to pass it up.. I am counting on the revolver to be my main gun.. unless the KelTec surprises me..

Thanks
Dana

[Moonshine]

Let me know how it performs for you. I'll be curious to hear if you have a similar (or better) experience. I don't have any first hand experience with the Kel-Tecs. as an aside, I'm fixing to buy a S&W 442. This thread reminded me how much I regretted selling my 642.

[gagspa]

Brian, I really appreciate the advice.. but I am getting this one just for fun and to see what its all about.. I might have to send it back a few times or take it to a gunsmith to get it squared away.. but at a $200+ pricepoint, its just hard to pass it up.. I am counting on the revolver to be my main gun.. unless the KelTec surprises me..

Thanks
Dana
I know several people that are happy with their Kel-tecs, especially after smoothing out some of the rough edges and burs inside.

[dboat]

Let me know how it performs for you. I'll be curious to hear if you have a similar (or better) experience. I don't have any first hand experience with the Kel-Tecs. as an aside, I'm fixing to buy a S&W 442. This thread reminded me how much I regretted selling my 642.


I'll post up about both since the Taurus was "thrown under the bus" in an earlier post..

Dana

[dboat]

I know several people that are happy with their Kel-tecs, especially after smoothing out some of the rough edges and burs inside.

I have heard and read the same.. funny thing is, is that if you send it back to them saying that it jams, then they smooth out the rough spots and people really love them..makes you wonder why they just dont do it right the first time??

Dana