ROMES burning

[toddwarren]

Dang broke through 9000 on the DOW!!!!!!!!:icon_eek:

Hang on men the insurance company stocks are getting tortured today!

[whitelightning'02]

Might be time to BUY!!:tu:

[dboat]

Might be time to BUY!!:tu:


might be if you have the cash to jump in...

[my2002lightning]

The Dow is at 8,579 now. Not good. :mad:

[ZeusSVT]

Fawk....I need a beer. :tex

[WA 2 FST]

This is what happens when the govt starts moving towards socialism. If you are promising (as the Dems are) to increase capital gains taxes, increase taxes on middle income America (which, as BC pointed out in another thread will happen in 2011), then what are all the "big" investers going to do? They will pull their money and either put it in other markets or just create enough cash-flow so that they can pay the exhorbitant taxes which are coming.

Congress just voted a $700B tax increase on all of us who make a living here in the US.

If they really want me or anyone else to keep investing in their market, then they can't pull it out of my wallet. I can't invest/spend what I don't have.

Socialism at its finest. We can't let people fail at anything. Instead we have to bail them out for making stupid mistakes. Everyone has to be equal or its not "fair." That's not what this country was built upon.

[BC Lightning]

Obama might not be raising taxes for low and middle income families, however he isn't going to do anything to stop it once Bush's Bill expires in 2011

Obama is nothing more than the pied piper with his flute and has all the mice following him wherever he wants to go, and that direction is down the toilet with the economy

Good luck getting a specialist with healthcare for everyone, all of the Drs I sell to are looking into cash pay and getting rid of insurance because of the reimbursement they get, so if you need a trauma surgery you might not get the best performing the surgery

I don't think it is a RIGHT to have insurance like Obama said he does at the debate, but I do feel like people should have it, just not on my dime

we just need to get rid of income taxes all together and raise the price of sales tax, the higher the price of things the more tax that gets paid, it evens things out across the board

Here is a little story:
A very well to do Doctor put himself through school, worked very hard to get the patients he has and build up his practice from scratch. Well he has a daughter who had the oppurnity to attend any school she wanted. She decides to go to school in New York. A very liberal school.

She spent a semester learning how the "rich" are whats wrong with this country how if the rich gave some of their money everyone would have health care, everyone would be fed, all of the countrys problems would be saved.

The daughter comes home for Christmas vacation and starts bashing her father, saying he should give more. The father calms her down and asked how her grades were. She replied all a's and had a 4.0 that she worked really hard for. Had to give up going out some nights to study for tests and spend extra time on her projects. He then asks about her roomate. The daughter said her roomate rarely attends class, stays out late, never does homework and barely has a 2.0 to stay in school.

The father smiled and said why not give your roomate one of your grade points to your roomate to even things out. That way you both have a 3.0. The daughter in a stern voice said no way, I worked too hard to just give that too her when she didn't earn it.

The father smiled and said, "Welcome to the Republican party"

[WA 2 FST]

I've read that story before. The thing is, there are people out there who still wouldn't get it if you told it to them 100x.

I agree... its not a RIGHT to have healthcare (been paying for my own since I was 24yrs old... so that makes 16yrs now and counting), and they don't have a RIGHT to own a home.

Just these two issues alone have helped put this country into a bankrupt state. The Democrats plan to pay for all of it by pulling out of the Iraq war (and pull funds from the "war on terror" efforts). I guess that would be a very short-term solution... until we have another 9-11 catastrophe. Maybe by that point, we'll have another Republican in office.

It isn't happening for this next term, though. OBAMA bin Laden has it in the bag.

[wesman]

I figured below 9k, but after watching the downward momentum it will go lower. If you have the ability to get in, wait it out until at least Tues. There may be some uptick tomorrow, but it will likely die off and finish lower......then recent history shows Mon will be brutal. I think it will get sub 8k before the rebound on Tues.....at least that's what I hope is bottom...I plan on freeing up capital to make moves on Tues morning.

--wes

[L8 APEX]

Dropped 700 points on opening bell today.

[Beaudee]

Its the X and Y Generations that messed it all up:D (Money for nothin checks for free on the MTV)

[WA 2 FST]

Wes is right... there will be plenty of $$ to be made, I believe.

And if you invest soon and it tanks to 1000, then you lost less money than everyone else. :tongue:

[Beaudee]

Still think the X and Y gen, messeed it all up:rll::rll:I have actually had training on how to deal with you guys:eek2:15uo9qGlKKQ:rll::rll::rll:True!!!!!!!!!! !BWAAAAA!!!!!X+Y think life is a bowl of cherrys!!!!!!!

[WA 2 FST]

Hey man, I agree. It started with the Boomers and those who smoked all that weed at Woodstock.

BUT... like wise Terry has said, this financial crisis has been perpetuated by people living well beyond their means... and government programs that have helped them do it. That's beyond Democrat vs. Republican. It's beyond corporate greed. Look in the mirror America.

So I have no issue with you or anyone else saying Gen X/Y screwed things up.

[Beaudee]

Hey man, I agree. It started with the Boomers and those who smoked all that weed at Woodstock.

BUT... like wise Terry has said, this financial crisis has been perpetuated by people living well beyond their means... and government programs that have helped them do it. That's beyond Democrat vs. Republican. It's beyond corporate greed. Look in the mirror America.

So I have no issue with you or anyone else saying Gen X/Y screwed things up.

Its a fact and history shows it.I agree with what U said with a twist though.:tu:Pretty interesting stuff !!!!:tu:Heck you got to blame it someone,its the american way.

[Beaudee]

aNaKWXqXkhw:eek:

[wesman]

Wes is right... there will be plenty of $$ to be made, I believe.

And if you invest soon and it tanks to 1000, then you lost less money than everyone else. :tongue:

My biggest investments so far have been AMR, bought 2000 shares on Wed at $6.11....it hasn't dropped since then. I think they're in position to ride it our because of the measures they took when oil was $140 a barrell, now that it's almost half that they're sitting pretty compared to most other businesses.

I have also been heavy in the ETF TWM, since the fed banned the short sellers it took a huge hit but has come back on . I got in last Mon at $93.55 for 100 shares, it's up to $135 today and should maintain value well in this market.

Keep in mind the price of a stock is irrelevant, a gain is a gain. If you're into something for $10k and gain 6% it doesn't matter if the stock was $1 or if it was $100, your gain is still 6%. It seems a lot of newer investors get stuck on the price of a stock instead of the gains it makes and they only go for "cheap" stocks. While there is generally a lot more upside potential of a stock moving from $5 to $7.50 than there is $20 to $30 in a day, there is also more potential for it to move from $5 to $2.50.

There is tons of info out there, and for the most part it's free....it's time to study for those that are interested. Keep in mind Mon is a holiday for the movers and shakers so don't get in today for anythign risky.....it's not smart to hold over a 3 day weekend, especially one with the volatility this market has shown the last week. I'm not sure if the market will make Tues it's normal Mon and continue it's slide and uptick on Wed or what....it's a wait and see.

I'm just waiting for the market to show the second uptick, keep in mind the short ban is gone so sometimes the first uptick is just to get dummies like us invested and then the shorts come take all our money. I wait for the second uptick, I'm willing to wait out the first 10% gain in order to better my chances of not losing my shirt on a false up.

That's all for now...my hands hurt from typing...lol

--wes

[dboat]

GM is at $5 per share... am thinking about it.. also Am Exp is at $23 per share..

[Beaudee]

My biggest investments so far have been AMR, bought 2000 shares on Wed at $6.11....it hasn't dropped since then. I think they're in position to ride it our because of the measures they took when oil was $140 a barrell, now that it's almost half that they're sitting pretty compared to most other businesses.

I have also been heavy in the ETF TWM, since the fed banned the short sellers it took a huge hit but has come back on . I got in last Mon at $93.55 for 100 shares, it's up to $135 today and should maintain value well in this market.

Keep in mind the price of a stock is irrelevant, a gain is a gain. If you're into something for $10k and gain 6% it doesn't matter if the stock was $1 or if it was $100, your gain is still 6%. It seems a lot of newer investors get stuck on the price of a stock instead of the gains it makes and they only go for "cheap" stocks. While there is generally a lot more upside potential of a stock moving from $5 to $7.50 than there is $20 to $30 in a day, there is also more potential for it to move from $5 to $2.50.

There is tons of info out there, and for the most part it's free....it's time to study for those that are interested. Keep in mind Mon is a holiday for the movers and shakers so don't get in today for anythign risky.....it's not smart to hold over a 3 day weekend, especially one with the volatility this market has shown the last week. I'm not sure if the market will make Tues it's normal Mon and continue it's slide and uptick on Wed or what....it's a wait and see.

I'm just waiting for the market to show the second uptick, keep in mind the short ban is gone so sometimes the first uptick is just to get dummies like us invested and then the shorts come take all our money. I wait for the second uptick, I'm willing to wait out the first 10% gain in order to better my chances of not losing my shirt on a false up.

That's all for now...my hands hurt from typing...lol

--wes
dont give out the AMR secret,good fishin spots,hunting,ETC...:tu::bows

[wesman]

dont give out the AMR secret,good fishin spots,hunting,ETC...:tu::bows


lol...I don't think of stock trades as secrets.....although I don't like to give out specific stock info to people because I don't want them to blame me if it goes south....lol

Even if everyone on this site went and bought 10k shares it wouldn't make a dent on the daily trade volume. It's not like this is some sort of slick deal and only 10 are avail, AMR's daily trade volume is ~25M

--wes

[my2002lightning]

http://sadguysontradingfloors.tumblr.com/page/1 .:icon_smile:

[Ohmsby]

GM for me at the mid fours I am in for a little and look for it to rebound. I also like Apple but think Gm is the chance to make a quick buck going to wait until Tuesday and then put my "left foot in":cool:

[Ohmsby]

also think Enron is solid........................

[Beaudee]

lol...I don't think of stock trades as secrets.....although I don't like to give out specific stock info to people because I don't want them to blame me if it goes south....lol

Even if everyone on this site went and bought 10k shares it wouldn't make a dent on the daily trade volume. It's not like this is some sort of slick deal and only 10 are avail, AMR's daily trade volume is ~25M

--wes

Yaaah,most dont have the cash or the pelotas to invest in airline stock.Another good one is Jet Blue:tu:I saw several people become rich on AMR:tu::tu:

[Silver_2000]

I know of a stock that is currently trading at 11.50 and is stated to sell at 14.80 in less than 30 days

Send me cash and Ill tell you the details

edit sorry now its at 12.17 thats just less than 20% in under 30 days

[dboat]

I know of a stock that is currently trading at 11.50 and is stated to sell at 14.80 in less than 30 days

Send me cash and Ill tell you the details

edit sorry now its at 12.17 thats just less than 20% in under 30 days

but you could have made 20% on AMR in one day ... buy it Thurs and sell on Fri.. I believe..


Dana

[Silver_2000]

but you could have made 20% on AMR in one day ... buy it Thurs and sell on Fri.. I believe..

Dana
hindsite isnt as valuable as foresight

[dboat]

hindsite isnt as valuable as foresight


aint that the truth.. otherwise, all of us would have pulled our money out before the drop and jump back in at the bottom and ride it back up..

Dana

[tiffo60]

copied from msn



GM in talks with other automakers

General Motors (GM (http://moneycentral.msn.com/detail/stock_quote?Symbol=GM), news (http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/ticker/rcnews.asp?Symbol=GM), msgs (http://moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/board.asp?Symbol=GM)) is reportedly talking with Chrysler about joining forces.

The merger of two U.S. automakers would be historic, but given the pain the industry has endured over the past year -- and the worrisome outlook going forward -- it would not be a huge surprise.

Can GM and Ford survive? (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/can-general-motors-and-ford-survive.aspx)

GM shares plunged nearly 46% last week as worries about the company's future weighed on investors. The stock was up $1.65, or 33.7%, to $6.54 in morning trading. Chrysler is majority-owned by private-equity firm Cerberus Capital Management.
One analyst was skeptical about a deal.
"There's got to be more in it for GM than just Chrysler," Erich Merkle, an auto industry analyst with Crowe Horwath, told The Associated Press. "If you put two auto companies together, both that are losing money, both that are losing market share, you've just got an auto company that's losing market share faster and losing more money."
GM's U.S. sales fell by 18% through September, and Chrysler's plunged 25%. Automakers have been slammed by soaring gasoline prices and an extremely tight credit market, which has restricted loans to buyers.
The Chrysler talks come after reports surfaced that GM approached Ford Motor (F (http://moneycentral.msn.com/detail/stock_quote?Symbol=F), news (http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/ticker/rcnews.asp?Symbol=F), msgs (http://moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/board.asp?Symbol=F)) about merging.

[Ohmsby]

I got it going to 9 and change by weeks end hope I dont get hosed:d I am in for a few bucks

[wesman]

GM is looking good, as is MS. I had a buy order in for tomorrow morning for MS...that obviously wont be going through. I thought the market would be closed today, like the bond markets are. So...missed out on a nice chunk of change with the cash infusion they got this morning by Mitsu. I sold off TWM at $128.68 on Fri at the end of the day, too much money to let it sit over the weekend and not knowing what would happen the early parts of this week, turns out to have been a good move.

AMR is still looking good, it's at $8.90, earnings call on Wed morning.

Doug, I'd take a wild guess on your stock above...pretty obvious to me it's got a letter and # ;)

--wes

[Silver_2000]

Im confused

this was caused by risky loans by poorly managed banks with predatory lending practices. The reaction is to be more careful in lending. Apparently that is causing problems so now the GOVT is going to buy a piece of a bunch of bank in order to get them making more loans ....

Huh ?

People that didnt have down payments and couldn't afford it were allowed to take loans they couldn't pay back - thats what started this - now its tougher to get a loan ...

Im sorry but isnt that what we want ?
Only make loans to people that can and will pay ?

[dboat]

The financial crisis was caused because the fed passed laws that forced banks to make more risky loans.. yes, some banks took that too far.. but a big piece of GM is GMAC which has a significant mortgage arm to it.. my concern is that of GM, or any of the big three going down.. economic theory says that if they are not strong, they should go.. frankly, I believe in that theory, however, no one could have seen the huge jump in oil prices which killed the big three since they depend on truck sales so much. Also, the market wasnt pushing them to build high mileage vehicles.. so, I dont mind if there is some help (like Chrysler did with Iacocca) because it also hurts the market if they leave..now some would say that if one of the big three go down, then, someone else should step in to fill the void. my concern is that someone would be a foreign company and then those profits would go overseas and not stay here..
In regard to the morgage led financial crisis.. it is a reflection of the social engineering that was started by the Dems and then not stopped by the Repubs but when it was noticed that things were going bad, the Dems kept action from happening (imho).. so all of that led to where we are today.

Dana

[toddwarren]

My gosh these 1000 point swings Friday and Monday in the stock market

are crazy! If the governmnet keeps writing checks as fast as they are the

United States is going to be deeper under the out house financially. I see

now where Mcain, who I am voting for has a new 52 billion program he

introduced today. Spend baby spend!!! LOL

Who thinks this is all a bunch

of smoke and mirrors? meaning the real bad news on a slowing economy

is right around the corner!

[tiffo60]

The bail outs are only pro-longing the inevitable....

[WA 2 FST]

I agree with Dana and Todd (who are speaking on two different topics).

The other thing to consider is that not only were banks giving risky loans (or they would have gone out of business... Dana is right... the govt was promoting it through Fannie/Freddy), but remember that the _invididuals_ taking those loans were just being greedy with little/no chance of ever repaying them.

I took some cash out on some of my rentals, and I could easily (this was actually proposed to me) claimed that they were my primary residence... thereby having the ability to take out more cash than I'd have been eligible since it was a rental. That would have been greed, wrong, immoral, a lie, whatever you want to call it. But it was happening all over... just one instance of fraud.

Zero-down loans, "stated income loans", etc. It was all a lot of crap...the money should never have been lended out. Would any one of us give our best friends 6-figure loans with collateral that was iffy at best and with less than adequate income to support payoff? No, we wouldn't. It's that simple.

Todd, yeah I'll be voting for McCain b/c I believe in the Republican platform (not b/c I really like him), but unless the govt wants to start printing money (and therefore driving inflation through the roof), I don't see where they will get all the $$ to pay for all this junk.

What they _should_ do after they buy back all these mortgages is let folks with good credit (thank you), buy them up at discounted rates. I'll be happy to help them out with a few of those.

[WA 2 FST]

The bail outs are only pro-longing the inevitable....

I agree. And with the liklihood of us electing a tax and spend Democrat, those crooks just forced me to finance their $700B bailout... and guess what? I don't need bailing out...at least not yet, but if the govt has anything to do with it, I'll be relying on them in a few years.

[wesman]

I agree. And with the liklihood of us electing a tax and spend Democrat, those crooks just forced me to finance their $700B bailout... and guess what? I don't need bailing out...at least not yet, but if the govt has anything to do with it, I'll be relying on them in a few years.


Actually the Govt doesn't want you relying on them. You are/were responsible, the Govt doesn't care about your problems unfortunately.

--wes

[WA 2 FST]

Actually the Govt doesn't want you relying on them. You are/were responsible, the Govt doesn't care about your problems unfortunately.

--wes

Socialist govt does want me relying on them to a point.

However, I understand your point. Govt wants me to continue to subsidize others. The problem is that if they tax me too heavily, I'll be able to still subsidize them somewhat, but won't be able to help spur the economy with spending in the private sector.

[dboat]

I agree with Dana and Todd (who are speaking on two different topics).

The other thing to consider is that not only were banks giving risky loans (or they would have gone out of business... Dana is right... the govt was promoting it through Fannie/Freddy), but remember that the _invididuals_ taking those loans were just being greedy with little/no chance of ever repaying them.


I would say that some of these folks probably didnt know what they could really afford, were told they "qualified" which meant to them that they could afford it.. and did have every intention to pay and buy their home.. some folks just dont have the financial skills to know what they really can afford and trust the lendor to tell them.. while some of these folks may be in the minority, I do have a soft spot for them.. the ones that took the no money down, no principle and anticipated churning the home in a year or two for a profit (hence treating as an investment), well, they can choke on it..

Dana

[Silver_2000]

come on

the first year of these "special loans " maybe give them a pass - MAYBE

But after that ANYONE who goes thru the process of applying for and getting approved for a zero down, or interest only or balloon note or gets a second loan as the down for the first is COMPLETELY complicit

But even keeping in mind the old saying that you cant fix stupid ... DOes that mean that the millions of people that took loans they couldnt afford should be able to get me to pay for it ?

I say no. No bailouts, no foreclosure stops, nothing. Why ? Because its not fixing the issue - its only extending the pain. If they cant afford it now they wont be able to afford it in 90 days. The delay just gives them more time to run up the credit card bills

Flame suit on

[dboat]

come on

the first year of these "special loans " maybe give them a pass - MAYBE

But after that ANYONE who goes thru the process of applying for and getting approved for a zero down, or interest only or balloon note or gets a second loan as the down for the first is COMPLETELY complicit

But even keeping in mind the old saying that you cant fix stupid ... DOes that mean that the millions of people that took loans they couldnt afford should be able to get me to pay for it ?

I say no. No bailouts, no foreclosure stops, nothing. Why ? Because its not fixing the issue - its only extending the pain. If they cant afford it now they wont be able to afford it in 90 days. The delay just gives them more time to run up the credit card bills

Flame suit on

I hear ya, but I was just giving a case study where this can and probably did happen.. I am not wanting to pay for anyones mortgage myself either.. now, the contra argument is that if all these houses hit the market and are foreclosures, what is that going to do to your home's value? Probably nothing in my neighborhood, but it might in some others and the potential cost of underwriting some of these mortgages vs the loss in home value are what you are talking about..

Dana

[WA 2 FST]

Dana,

Your case study is valid, and I'm sure it happened some. The thing is it happened even more often in the late 80s with all the "interest-only" mortgages and aggressive ARM's.

So this is not a new phenomenon (and I'm sure you know that).

I do understand what you're saying, although I still think there are plenty of folks who got in way over their head...with the knowledge that it would be very tough to make the payments (but then the craze was refi and that will somehow bail them out, too). The fact is that it is not an Amercian "right" to own your own home, especially if you can't afford it. Zero down sounds good, but then that means you still don't own it, assuming you paid FMV. You're basically paying rent for the first 10 years anyway, given you have almost no equity in it.

I know I'm sounding mean and cruel, but I honestly believe it is the greed of the working class just as much as the greed of the upper class that got us into this mess. That's just my opinion.

And I'm not trying to sound better than the next guy. I learned in my early 20s that credit card debt is a bad, bad thing (my wife and I had $5k in CC bills that we held for several years), and was just fortunate enough to get out from under that. Now I refuse to incur large debts, even for big ticket items, and pay off the CC every month, using it as plastic cash. To get this back on the "auto enthusiast" topic... this is why I prefer to buy an affordable vehicle and modify it (paying cash for the mods), instead of a vehicle I can't afford that I end up paying on for 36-60 months. I'd love to have a Ford GT, but I'd be paying on it for 5-10 years. :tongue:

[dboat]

Dana,

Your case study is valid, and I'm sure it happened some. The thing is it happened even more often in the late 80s with all the "interest-only" mortgages and aggressive ARM's.

So this is not a new phenomenon (and I'm sure you know that).

I do understand what you're saying, although I still think there are plenty of folks who got in way over their head...with the knowledge that it would be very tough to make the payments (but then the craze was refi and that will somehow bail them out, too). The fact is that it is not an Amercian "right" to own your own home, especially if you can't afford it. Zero down sounds good, but then that means you still don't own it, assuming you paid FMV. You're basically paying rent for the first 10 years anyway, given you have almost no equity in it.

I know I'm sounding mean and cruel, but I honestly believe it is the greed of the working class just as much as the greed of the upper class that got us into this mess. That's just my opinion.

And I'm not trying to sound better than the next guy. I learned in my early 20s that credit card debt is a bad, bad thing (my wife and I had $5k in CC bills that we held for several years), and was just fortunate enough to get out from under that. Now I refuse to incur large debts, even for big ticket items, and pay off the CC every month, using it as plastic cash. To get this back on the "auto enthusiast" topic... this is why I prefer to buy an affordable vehicle and modify it (paying cash for the mods), instead of a vehicle I can't afford that I end up paying on for 36-60 months. I'd love to have a Ford GT, but I'd be paying on it for 5-10 years. :tongue:

I couldnt agree more.. you have your head screwed on right.. I pay off my CC every month.. I do use those 12 months, free financing on occasion.. all my vehicles are paid off, but I do buy new on occasion..

I do not think it is a "right" to own a home and I dont think everyone should own one either.. some folks just arent cut out for it or maybe they arent going to be in town long enough to get a return on their home.. then there are those that buy one and never, ever, ever put a dime into it and it really shows within a year or so.. (I think most will know what I mean).. they are just bad for the neighborhood..

Dana

[Mark #2]

I remember when...

We went in for our mortgage and they said we could qualify for 2x what we were asking for and should go for a bigger house, good time to buy, rates are low, 30 year is a much better choice than a 15 year with the rates so low, etc, etc etc.

I wasn't comfortable with a 30 year mortgage at their recommended loan rate. So we settled with a 15 year mortgage at 1/2 of their recommendation.

Just made the last payment.

[Silver_2000]

Here is a perfect example

this from an article about the IRS stimulus checks (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081014/ap_on_re_us/stimulus_checks) that were delayed due to wives not informing SS administration that they changed their names on joint returns - 250,000 checks delayed


Either way, the news was welcomed by Sam and Elaine Vilardo, both 51, of Sinking Spring, Pa. After the couple married in 2001, she failed to register her name change with the Social Security Administration. When they called the IRS several months ago, they were told they'd have to wait until next year for the stimulus money because of that oversight.
Not anymore.
"It's great news," Sam Vilardo said Monday. "We've already spent the money, so we might as well get the check."
Vilardo blamed procrastination for failing to get his wife's name change registered.
"After you get married you have all those paper changes," said Vilardo, a mechanical machine designer at a steel company. "You just drop the ball."
Great some one says you have $600 coming so go spend it before it arrives...