Auto bailout

[L8 APEX]

Well, they passed it, dammit... I hope they truly restructure and don't piss it away in bonuses and retreats...:icon_rolleyes:

[PUMP]

Only way that will happen is for both the UAW and Management to agree to take some big cuts in wages and/or benifits - on both sides. When the top execs of a company make 500 to 1000 times as much as the lowest paid employee there is no give and take.
All employees (including board of directors and officers) need to have a good reason to make it work. The greed of the majority of American corporations is unbelievable.:mad:

[dboat]

Well, they passed it, dammit... I hope they truly restructure and don't piss it away in bonuses and retreats...:icon_rolleyes:

it has only passed in the House... the Senate awaits and it may not have the votes to pass there.. IMHO, it shouldnt pass and they should all file for Ch 11 and have to be completely restructured.. that would level the playing field for workers and management alike..

Dana

[L8 APEX]

Damn, am I goofing two threads:tex.
They should continue to shrink, break it off in the UAW and restructure.

[Mika]

it has only passed in the House... the Senate awaits and it may not have the votes to pass there.. IMHO, it shouldnt pass and they should all file for Ch 11 and have to be completely restructured.. that would level the playing field for workers and management alike..

Dana


I agree with this 100%. UAW needs to go away and doing so would trim a lot of the fat. Some folks think that it's unamerican to think/say stuff like that. I think they're full of it.



Mika

[Beaudee]

Damn, am I goofing two threads:tex.
They should continue to shrink, break it off in the UAW and restructure.

Always blame it on the workin man:nono:Its piss poor management from the top level with the shit runnin down hill to the workin man.Dont even get me started:throw::vomit:Also if your American,buy AMERICAN.TAX the shit out of foreign import stuff.As far as re-structure.Ha Ha Ha .

[tiffo60]

Always blame it on the workin man:nono:Its piss poor management from the top level with the shit runnin down hill to the workin man.Dont even get me started:throw::vomit:

A Union man is not a workin man:throw:

[Beaudee]

A Union man is not a workin man:throw: And you are:rll:Probally work for your Daddy:rll::evil

[tiffo60]

And you are:rll:Probally work for your Daddy:rll::evil

I cant count how many 14hr days, 7days a week I have put in and not complained one second about it, can you say the same?

[Beaudee]

We should spank the executives and tax the shit out of foreign stuff and make them pay for the bailout.:icon_mrgreen:

[Beaudee]

I cant count how many 14hr days, 7days a week I have put in and not complained one second about it, can you say the same?

Yep and then some.No offense Tiff,theres more better sides to union workers than bad.:tu:If the system wasnt so corrupt we wouldnt need unions.:twitch:

[Beaudee]

As far as restructure,need a nostradamus executive to predict the future,probally 2 years or more to change assembly line and another year to get the public to absorb the new vehichles.:icon_eek:Good luck with the bailout and godbless UAW and their familys for next few years.MejtR81RzCo

[Wht95Lightning]

I cant count how many 14hr days, 7days a week I have put in and not complained one second about it, can you say the same?

Yep. Damn near every week. I'm self employed and I am a slave driver. ;)

[L8 APEX]

Bo you are a semi skilled laborer, your union hasn't run your employer into the ground yet. UAW, is a bunch of unskilled door hanging, tire inflating chimps. They have outlived their usefullness and it is time they were discarded or got with reality. Which is where you actually earn your pay vs. bully the industry for fat chops.

[WA 2 FST]

Bo you are a semi skilled laborer, your union hasn't run your employer into the ground yet. UAW, is a bunch of unskilled door hanging, tire inflating chimps. They have outlived their usefullness and it is time they were discarded or got with reality. Which is where you actually earn your pay vs. bully the industry for fat chops.

Agreed. These people literally bite the hands that feed them. If the owners go bankrupt, then the union workers are out of work, and the first in line to collect their govt handout. Sorry, but ownership has the final say.

I don't agree with flying around in a private leer jet when the company is struggling, but the fact is it is the _owners_ who have everything to lose. It's _their_ stake in it. It's _their_ company.

People can complain all day about the rich, fat cats...and they deserve a LOT of the blame. But they also write the checks. Sorry, but the tail cannot wag the dog and make a company successful.

But I fully understand it is much more complicated than that as well.

[98Cobra]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.

The collapse came after bipartisan talks on the auto rescue broke down over GOP demands that the United Auto Workers union agree to steep wage cuts by 2009 to bring their pay into line with Japanese carmakers.
Majority Leader Harry Reid said he hoped President George W. Bush would tap the $700 billion Wall Street bailout fund for emergency aid to the automakers. General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC have said they could be weeks from collapse. Ford Motor Co. says it does not need federal help now, but its survival is far from certain.
The White House said it was evaluating its options in light of the breakdown.
"It's disappointing that Congress failed to act tonight," a White House statement said. "We think the legislation we negotiated provided an opportunity to use funds already appropriated for automakers and presented the best chance to avoid a disorderly bankruptcy while ensuring taxpayer funds only go to firms whose stakeholders were prepared to make difficult decisions to become viable."
The Senate rejected the bailout 52-35 on a procedural vote -- well short of the 60 required -- after the talks fell apart.
The implosion followed an unprecedented marathon negotiations at the Capitol among labor, the auto industry and lawmakers who bargained into the night in efforts to salvage the auto bailout at a time of soaring job losses and widespread economic turmoil.
The group came close to agreement, but it stalled over the UAW's refusal to agree to wage cuts before their current contract expires in 2011. Republicans, in turn, balked at giving the automakers federal aid.
Reid called the bill's collapse "a loss for the country," adding: "I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow. It's not going to be a pleasant sight."
"In the midst of already deep and troubling economic times, we are about to add to that by walking away," said Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., the Banking Committee chairman who led negotiations on the package.
Alan Reuther, the UAW's legislative director, declined comment to reporters as he left a meeting room during the negotiations. Messages were left with Reuther and UAW spokesman Roger Kerson.
The stunning disintegration was eerily reminiscent of the defeat of the $700 billion Wall Street bailout in the House, which sent the Dow tumbling and lawmakers back to the drawing board to draft a new agreement to rescue financial institutions and halt a broader economic meltdown. That measure ultimately passed and was signed by Bush.
It wasn't immediately clear, however, how the auto aid measure might be resurrected in a bailout-fatigued postelection Congress, with Bush's influence at a low ebb.
Congressional Republicans were already in open revolt against Bush over an auto bailout deal the White House negotiated with congressional Democrats, passed by the House passed on Wednesday.
The momentum flagged even amid evidence of deepening economic meltdown. The government reported last week that the economy had lost more than a half-million jobs in November, the most in any month for more than 30 years.

[liteitup]

Agreed. These people literally bite the hands that feed them. If the owners go bankrupt, then the union workers are out of work, and the first in line to collect their govt handout. Sorry, but ownership has the final say.

I don't agree with flying around in a private leer jet when the company is struggling, but the fact is it is the _owners_ who have everything to lose. It's _their_ stake in it. It's _their_ company.

People can complain all day about the rich, fat cats...and they deserve a LOT of the blame. But they also write the checks. Sorry, but the tail cannot wag the dog and make a company successful.

But I fully understand it is much more complicated than that as well.

I agree about the unions wholeheartedly. But the CEO's and other fatcats people complain about are NOT the owners, they are extremely overpaid executives at publicly traded companies. And since I started, NO ONE, not even the person that cures cancer, is worth the kind of money these people are paid. The supposed reasoning for their salary and perks was performance based. That's doubtful in the best of times and laughable now.

[L8 APEX]

Great, stupid people... They can renegotiate their contract in 2011 when they are homeless... How stupid is the UAW? Do they not understand the govt isn;t going to give them billions to keep doing the same thing that got them here? Do they not see that their ridiculous wages are not realistic in their industry? The corporate folks are not the only ones at fault here.. Stick it to them congress! These lemmings need to find the sea!

[Silver_2000]

UAW can take responsibility for the down turn in the world economy today as a response to the bailout failure

There is an interesting thread on NLOC about this

http://www.nloc.net/vbforum/almost-anything-goes/193612-big-3-asking-bailout-money.html

Ive put more than my $0.02 in there

I copied Garretts quote there - hope you dont mind

[WA 2 FST]

I agree about the unions wholeheartedly. But the CEO's and other fatcats people complain about are NOT the owners, they are extremely overpaid executives at publicly traded companies. And since I started, NO ONE, not even the person that cures cancer, is worth the kind of money these people are paid. The supposed reasoning for their salary and perks was performance based. That's doubtful in the best of times and laughable now.

You're right, and I didn't take enough time to differentiate my thoughts.

There are _plenty_ of overpaid mid/high-"management" execs who are just pushing paper for a living and living off the "fat" of the company. I understand that, and apologize for not delving further into my explanation. I saw this first-hand when I got out of college and worked at Frito-Lay HQ for a couple of years ('90-92). Mid-management jobs were cut severely, but it rescued the company as a whole.

Me, being a self-employed business owner, I tend to take ownership's side when it is questioned. Again, I understand there is a lot more to it than something so simplistic, but I will still always side with "big business" over "big govt."

That being said, admittedly we are seeing the effects of poor management by big business (although with unions, I don't think they can hire/fire like most companies I'm familiar with here in the south), and now the big-brother, socialist side of govt is creeping in. It's a balance, and one that will always be a struggle to maintain.

[98Cobra]

No, don't mind at all.

I hear the arguments for why unions are a necessary thing, but to me that just doesn't wash in today's information economy. If you didn't have unions, would wages be lower? Absolutely - but would wages be competitive? Sure. If they are too low - you don't get skilled workers to fill those positions, and quality takes a dive, as well as perception the public has of your company ("Ford only pays their assembly line guys $10 an hour? No wonder all they turn out is junk!") I think its obvious that at the non-unionized Japanese plants that they want to pay a wage that is fair to the company and to the work done, because a fair wage makes a happy worker, who cares about doing a quality job, and making the company successful, thereby guaranteeing their future employment.

To quote Doug's figure above - the AVERAGE is $125k a year for factory workers - if you think executive pay is bad, please tell me how only 10 workers in one assembly plant are worth $1.25 MILLION a year. That's absurd. Multiply that out by how many workers they have, and the scope of the problem becomes clear.

[Silver_2000]

To quote Doug's figure above - the AVERAGE is $125k a year for factory workers - if you think executive pay is bad, please tell me how only 10 workers in one assembly plant are worth $1.25 MILLION a year. That's absurd. Multiply that out by how many workers they have, and the scope of the problem becomes clear.
The other part thats forgotten is that if you have 100,000 employees or close to 300k like GM and you have 1000 execs making way too much and you fire all the execs the savings doesnt make a dent in the payroll for the 300k

Im not saying that people like the CEO of Exxon Mobil should be making billions and I agree that its aggravating BUT its NOT a significant cost in the big picture

And there has been debate on the pay scale for GM workers

http://media.gm.com/manufacturing/handbook/other_benefits.pdf

thats GMs own numbers



TOTAL COMPENSATION
The total of both cash compensation and benefits provided
to GM hourly workers in 2006 amounted to approximately
$73.26 per active hour worked. This total is made of two
main components: cash compensation ($39.68) and
benefit/government required programs ($33.58).
The average annual cash compensation for hourly
employees in 2006 was $39.68 per hour. Included in
average earnings are straight-time pay, Cost of Living
Allowance (COLA), night-shift premiums, overtime
premiums, holiday and vacation pay. In 2003, GM workers
logged 41,363 (hours in 000’s) in overtime hours for an
average of 371 hours per worker; in 2004, 39,409 overtime
hours for an average of 374 hours per worker; in 2005,
33,555 overtime hours for an average of 337 hours per
worker; and in 2006, 27,265 overtime hours for an average
of 315 hours per worker.
Benefit/government required programs in 2006 added an
additional $33.58 for each active hour worked. These costs
include: group life insurance, disability benefits, and
Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB), Job Security
(JOBS), pensions, unemployment compensation, Social
Security taxes, and hospital, surgical, prescription drug,
dental, and vision care benefits.

[dboat]

Did you read that entire GM thing.. I thought I had gotten a couple of decent severance pay deals but nothing like that.. wow, I could still not be working and getting 50-75% of my pay from when I left Dallas.. I would probably still be in Dallas with those terms..

I read (about 90% of) the thread on NLOC on this issue.. I tried to jump over the personal attacks between some posters.. anyway, I still think that if the UAW received its money from the profits of the company, then you would see a completely different UAW.. If you read the book "Jack", the former CEO of GE, I agree with him that you should get a decent wage but the only bonus he gave was stock in the company. That way, you had an incentive to do things that drove up the stock price to increase your stocks value. You should do those things that will have a long term impact on the stock price.. Let union membership be free and voluntary only.. see how many stay..
OR

Lets take the $15 Billion and buy the current inventory of cars and trucks on the dealers lots and then either auction them or do a lottery to win them. This way we would get some of the money back, plus some poor folks would have a shot at winning a new car for themselves.. lets be creative.. at least the money would generate some sales for the car company and reduce their inventory. It would get some folks a new car that they need.. we would be getting something for the money we put in.. anyway, its just an idea..

I am not anti-union, but I have seen them time after time put companies in the position where they have to shut down.. if the union were part of the process and had some "skin" in it, I think it might be a bit different. The real difference is that the hourly worker doesnt have skin in it, except for their employment but no other real risk.. the owners, the stockholders and usually, a lot of the executive management team have skin in the deal.

Dana

[WA 2 FST]

And, IMHO, you have to have "skin" in it to have any say whatsoever. Otherwise, please step aside, and just be glad you're not getting sent to the end of the line (unemployment line, that is).

Outside of unionized industries, this is how the real world, and a real capitalistic economy works.

I read a LOT of it (and certainly everything posted on this thread here) and I don't have any sympathy for the Big-3 union workers. Go cry me a river somewhere else.

[dboat]

And, IMHO, you have to have "skin" in it to have any say whatsoever. Otherwise, please step aside, and just be glad you're not getting sent to the end of the line (unemployment line, that is).

Outside of unionized industries, this is how the real world, and a real capitalistic economy works.

I read a LOT of it (and certainly everything posted on this thread here) and I don't have any sympathy for the Big-3 union workers. Go cry me a river somewhere else.

amen brother.. :tu:

Dana

[Ohmsby]

Fock em :throw: The UAW is probably the #1 problem facing any of the big three IMHO

Let em file #11 reorg and pay a wage that is competitive in the market which they play

[Beaudee]

No, don't mind at all.

I hear the arguments for why unions are a necessary thing, but to me that just doesn't wash in today's information economy. If you didn't have unions, would wages be lower? Absolutely - but would wages be competitive? Sure. If they are too low - you don't get skilled workers to fill those positions, and quality takes a dive, as well as perception the public has of your company ("Ford only pays their assembly line guys $10 an hour? No wonder all they turn out is junk!") I think its obvious that at the non-unionized Japanese plants that they want to pay a wage that is fair to the company and to the work done, because a fair wage makes a happy worker, who cares about doing a quality job, and making the company successful, thereby guaranteeing their future employment.

To quote Doug's figure above - the AVERAGE is $125k a year for factory workers - if you think executive pay is bad, please tell me how only 10 workers in one assembly plant are worth $1.25 MILLION a year. That's absurd. Multiply that out by how many workers they have, and the scope of the problem becomes clear.

Id like to see the pay scale/ union site you got this information.:rll::rll:Typical one sided B.S..:bs:rll:Im sure someone here can find the truthful pay scale,and most here couldnt make it on that pay.Lets not include the must benefits unless you think you shouldnt be gettin them where you work.B.S.!!!!!

[Beaudee]

Someone here should be able to find the Homepage/payscale of an UAW worker.Lets see the facts not one sided finger piontin B.S..:icon_mrgreen:I blame the whole mess we are in on fuel costs.

[dboat]

Id like to see the pay scale/ union site you got this information.:rll::rll:Typical one sided B.S..:bs:rll:Im sure someone here can find the truthful pay scale,and most here couldnt make it on that pay.Lets not include the must benefits unless you think you shouldnt be gettin them where you work.B.S.!!!!!

Beau, honestly, this is a total number reflecting actual wages and other benefit costs.. the issue is that benefit costs are running at or over 100% of wage costs due to all of the legacy costs.. pension plans, JOBS program, healthcare, college programs for the kids, payments to those that took early retirement, etc etc..
its a real number and that is part of the reason why the Big Three are in trouble.

Dana

[Beaudee]

Beau, honestly, this is a total number reflecting actual wages and other benefit costs.. the issue is that benefit costs are running at or over 100% of wage costs due to all of the legacy costs.. pension plans, JOBS program, healthcare, college programs for the kids, payments to those that took early retirement, etc etc..
its a real number and that is part of the reason why the Big Three are in trouble.

Dana

Well lets see what a McDonalds worker makes with benefits.:rll::rll:Are you telling me these folks shouldnt have benefits.Someone find the UAW site and lets see what they actually do get and tell me which benefits arent fair.:bs

[Silver_2000]

Someone here should be able to find the Homepage/payscale of an UAW worker.Lets see the facts not one sided finger piontin B.S..:icon_mrgreen:I blame the whole mess we are in on fuel costs.
Read the GM pdf I posted
Its from the horses mouth

http://media.gm.com/manufacturing/handbook/other_benefits.pdf

The fact that it wasn't published by the UAW doesn't mean its not accurate
another quote from the same document


2006 AVERAGE WAGE: (all job classifications) $28.37 per
hour (includes COLA)
Under the 2003 labor agreement, base hourly wages for a
GM vehicle assembler were increased from $23.58 to
$26.09. This included a two percent increase in base wages
(on Sept. 19, 2005) and a fold-in of a $2.00 per hour cost-ofliving
increase.
Base hourly wages for a GM machine repair electrician
increased from $27.60 per hour to $30.50. This included a
two percent increase in base wages (on Sept. 19, 2005), a
fold-in of a $2.00 per hour cost-of-living increase and a $.30
skilled trade general wage increase effective Sept. 14, 2003.
As of Dec. 31, 2006, the cost-of-living allowance was $1.93
per hour. The average wage for a GM vehicle assembler as
of Dec. 31, 2006 was $26.09 (base wage) plus $1.93 (COLA)
or $28.02 per hour. Also as of Dec. 31, 2006, the average
wage of a GM machine repair electrician was $30.50 (base
wage) plus $1.93 (COLA) or $32.43 per hour.$30.60 works out to $67,320 a year - thats AVERAGE for 40 hours a week and its the wage from 2 years ago

Now add in the retirement, zero cost health care, jobs bank etc etc and in the open market that job equal to jobs paying well over 100K

if you take the $32.43 number the annual salary is $71,346

[Ohmsby]

Your pay should reflect what the market provides. This allows companies to operate in the market they seek to make Profit.

The UAW very specifically handicapped the corporation from operating in a manner that is profitable in a global marketplace.

I realize that other issues plague that industry but the UAW should be careful what it ask for because getting it may mean going out of business

[Beaudee]

Read the GM pdf I posted
Its from the horses mouth

http://media.gm.com/manufacturing/handbook/other_benefits.pdf

The fact that it wasn't published by the UAW doesn't mean its not accurate
another quote from the same document

$30.60 works out to $67,320 a year - thats AVERAGE for 40 hours a week and its the wage from 2 years ago

Now add in the retirement, zero cost health care, jobs bank etc etc and in the open market that job equal to jobs paying well over 100K

if you take the $32.43 number the annual salary is $71,346
O.K. this looks realistic,im sure this is toped out pay,otherwords a 15-20 year man,lets deduct the union dues which is about 30 -40 bucks a month.This isnt bad/unfair for someone workin for the BIG 3,and seems fair throwing in the hazardous working enviroment,chemicals,strenuous labor.My point is everyone points the finger to where the costs are.Yes the workers are costs but those cars wouldnt be assembled without them.To tell me these folks are over paid,over benefitted is just WRONG.My major point is these folks deserve everything they get and take the cuts,make the allowances when the company is miss managed,fuel costs are through the roof.Im done:burnout:

[Ohmsby]

Well lets see what a McDonalds worker makes with benefits.:rll::rll:Are you telling me these folks shouldnt have benefits.Someone find the UAW site and lets see what they actually do get and tell me which benefits arent fair.:bs

McDonald's is probably one of the greatest conduits for success in America.

It however does not utilize union labor at the retail level and would not succeed if it did.

You can not pay $20.00 an hour to the "fry shaker" and compete. Much like paying some clown $70K plus full benefits a year to install seats. The model does not work.

[L8 APEX]

And you can't pay them 70K a year to sit at home for two years because you had to lay off to survive. The UAW is largely unskilled labor. Their ridiculous contracts have brought the US industry to its knees and they are still making demands. That will break the camels back.

[Beaudee]

McDonald's is probably one of the greatest conduits for success in America.

It however does not utilize union labor at the retail level and would not succeed if it did.

You can not pay $20.00 an hour to the "fry shaker" and compete. Much like paying some clown $70K plus full benefits a year to install seats. The model does not work.

70K would realistic be a person with 20+ years @ the co. and who bid on that seat position and won cause of that persons senority.Stll fair:tu:A deal is a deal.Co signs the contracts with the union,Companys are the first to break em and stick it to the hard workin union man who busted his ass for that company for years when the going gets tuff.:throw:AND yet they make the allowances

[L8 APEX]

70K would realistic be a person with 20+ years @ the co. and who bid on that seat position and won cause of that persons senority.Stll fair:tu:A deal is a deal.Co signs the contracts with the union,Companys are the first to break em and stick it to the hard workin union man who busted his ass for that company for years when the going gets tuff.:throw:
The makes don't willingly sign these contracts. The unions strike and shut down the plants like a hostile takeover until they get their way. I got a call on a union job today it starts at 18 an hr during the prob period and maxes out at 30 an hour in 6 months not 20yrs:icon_rolleyes:.

[gagspa]

O.K. this looks realistic,im sure this is toped out pay,otherwords a 15-20 year man,lets deduct the union dues which is about 30 -40 bucks a month....To tell me these folks are over paid,over benefitted is just WRONG.
$67,320 is the AVERAGE, not topped out.

Even then, BASE STARTING pay still works out to nearly $10k/year more than I make with a college degree and 9 years on the job. My retirement and healthcare all come from MY pocket.


Im sure someone here can find the truthful pay scale,and most here couldnt make it on that pay
I would love to make that much money! If you can't make it on an average salary of $67,320 plus benefits then I should be on welfare! You guys must all be loaded if this is poverty pay.

[Beaudee]

McDonald's is probably one of the greatest conduits for success in America.

It however does not utilize union labor at the retail level and would not succeed if it did.

You can not pay $20.00 an hour to the "fry shaker" and compete. Much like paying some clown $70K plus full benefits a year to install seats. The model does not work.

:rll::tu:I wonder what a Mc Donalds worker does make with benefits:rll:They do make a mean chicken sandwich and a big mac:rll::tu::D

[dboat]

Well lets see what a McDonalds worker makes with benefits.:rll::rll:Are you telling me these folks shouldnt have benefits.Someone find the UAW site and lets see what they actually do get and tell me which benefits arent fair.:bs

I didnt say they shouldnt get benefits.. but I dont know many, if any, that get these kinds of benefits.. that is what is helping to kill this industry.. However, you are correct in comparing the McDonalds worker to UAW, they have about the same skillset.. :evil

[Beaudee]

Hers your problem LOL:icon_mrgreen: http://www.midnight-emissary.com/images/Bush-Saudi-king2.jpg OOOIIIILLLLL!!!

[98Cobra]

Well lets see what a McDonalds worker makes with benefits.:rll::rll:Are you telling me these folks shouldnt have benefits.Someone find the UAW site and lets see what they actually do get and tell me which benefits arent fair.:bs

Are you saying the average UAW worker is skilled on par with a burger flipper at McD's? :D

From the GM quote above - $75.89 an hour in costs over a year with two weeks off unpaid is $151,780.

[L8 APEX]

Look on the news!
The UAW workers they are interviewing are the same folks that get interviewed after a tornado hits a trailer park. They are also the same folks seen on COPS and Cheaters:D.

[Mark #2]

Are you saying the average UAW worker is skilled on par with a burger flipper at McD's? :D

From the GM quote above - $75.89 an hour in costs over a year with two weeks off unpaid is $151,780.

I never knew that average UAW worker had a Masters Degree:tex

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Masters_Degrees_(non-MBA)/Salary

[Ohmsby]

:rll::tu:I wonder what a Mc Donalds worker does make with benefits:rll:They do make a mean chicken sandwich and a big mac:rll::tu::D

Starts at about 6-8 an hour for a new hire. He/she can do some management training and go to 8-9 an hour quickly. If they work hard probably see some assistant management training start to see some benefits with bonus and within a few years run a store which is probably 35-45 k plus benefit and bonus depending on the store volume. The next step is area supervisor and so-on. Almost all of the franchisees I work with started shakin fries.

In the union if you hang out for twenty years your entitled to a bigger salary rather you do your job or not. Time served somehow equals greater pay hmmm...... In this model if the fry shaker shakes fries for twenty years (same hazardous chemicals and hot stuff as factory worker) he/she should make $100K a year with full benefits.... no he is shaking fries and his water headed ass should have done something to move forward

[Beaudee]

Are you saying the average UAW worker is skilled on par with a burger flipper at McD's? :D

From the GM quote above - $75.89 an hour in costs over a year with two weeks off unpaid is $151,780.

Compared to what an unskilled burger flipper is paid @ McDonalds UAW are under paid.I thought it was a good analogy being Mc Donalds is a great Co..:tu:Probally see some educated folks workin there the way the economy is.I hope they put em @ the drive through speaker LOL

[Beaudee]

Starts at about 6-8 an hour for a new hire. He/she can do some management training and go to 8-9 an hour quickly. If they work hard probably see some assistant management training start to see some benefits with bonus and within a few years run a store which is probably 35-45 k plus benefit and bonus depending on the store volume. The next step is area supervisor and so-on. Almost all of the franchisees I work with started shakin fries.

In the union model if you hang out for twenty years your entitled to a bigger salary rather you do your job or not. Time served somehow equals greater pay hmmm......

If you got the time you got the senority,top pay,better days off,first bid on job positions and dont even think anbout sittin in that guys chair in the breakroom:rll::rll::tu:

[L8 APEX]

The proof is in the results. The system in place has left the big three bankrupt. Union labor is the largest part of their expenses. When all makers are building 20-40% fewer cars you have to be able to shed that labor burden.

[Mark #2]

Reference points on salaries.
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_People_in_All_Surveys/Salary/by_Degree

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/07/uaw-pricing-themselves-out-of-market.html

[Silver_2000]

for comparison

I took the lexus to the dealer today to get a tire fixed ( warranty ) They are on par to sell 320 cars this month - A good month .. over 10 cars a day ... AND they arent looking for a piece of my money.

Lets see, tire fixed free, free 2009 RX350 rental, free car wash, address me by name, greet me with a smile, changed oil for $60, 15k mile check for $150 that included 2 pages of inspections, 2 air filters, tightening, torquing, tire rotation etc etc etc. I was in in my car and out in the rental in under 15 min.

Lets see the big 3 match that

[Beaudee]

for comparison

I took the lexus to the dealer today to get a tire fixed ( warranty ) They are on par to sell 320 cars this month - A good month .. over 10 cars a day ... AND they arent looking for a piece of my money.

Lets see, tire fixed free, free 2009 RX350 rental, free car wash, address me by name, greet me with a smile, changed oil for $60, 15k mile check for $150 that included 2 pages of inspections, 2 air filters, tightening, torquing, tire rotation etc etc etc. I was in in my car and out in the rental in under 15 min.

Lets see the big 3 match that

They just told you they did all that and used your car for a demo and a joy ride and probally did nothin:rll::tu:

[Silver_2000]

They just told you they did all that and used your car for a demo and a joy ride and probally did nothin:rll::tu:

No thats what the union mechanics at the Chevy Dealer do

Its pretty tough to fake the car wash, the oil change, the air filter changes, the flat tire change, and the tire rotation.

[Aggie Mom]

They just told you they did all that and used your car for a demo and a joy ride and probally did nothin:rll::tu:


So sad but true. Awhile back, the Ford dealer here in town did that to my truck to the tune of 300 miles. No joke....

[L8 APEX]

There was a TALON member that caught the MIddlecauf or North Central guys doing burnouts in his truck. Not union though

[Beaudee]

No thats what the union mechanics at the Chevy Dealer do

Its pretty tough to fake the car wash, the oil change, the air filter changes, the flat tire change, and the tire rotation.

:icon_mrgreen: http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Sick-Lightning-Burnout_204338.htm Union Ford man

[98Cobra]

for comparison

I took the lexus to the dealer today to get a tire fixed ( warranty ) They are on par to sell 320 cars this month - A good month .. over 10 cars a day ... AND they arent looking for a piece of my money.

Lets see, tire fixed free, free 2009 RX350 rental, free car wash, address me by name, greet me with a smile, changed oil for $60, 15k mile check for $150 that included 2 pages of inspections, 2 air filters, tightening, torquing, tire rotation etc etc etc. I was in in my car and out in the rental in under 15 min.

Lets see the big 3 match that

Do you go to Sewell or Park Place? We get our service done at Sewell and I always come away impressed.

[Silver_2000]

Do you go to Sewell or Park Place? We get our service done at Sewell and I always come away impressed.

Park Place - A budy referred me to sewell but it came down to who had the car I wanted and was willing to sell it for a reasonable price

The sales Guy in Grapevines Name is John Schock - Nice Guy. you have to ask for him - they moved him up to another role but he still sells

[98Cobra]

We bought at Sewell Hummer of Dallas (used Lexus) but get it serviced at Sewell Lexus. Best experience (buying or service) I have ever had.

[mustgofaster]

for comparison

I took the lexus to the dealer today to get a tire fixed ( warranty ) They are on par to sell 320 cars this month - A good month .. over 10 cars a day ... AND they arent looking for a piece of my money.

Lets see, tire fixed free, free 2009 RX350 rental, free car wash, address me by name, greet me with a smile, changed oil for $60, 15k mile check for $150 that included 2 pages of inspections, 2 air filters, tightening, torquing, tire rotation etc etc etc. I was in in my car and out in the rental in under 15 min.

Lets see the big 3 match that

Depends on the dealer. I worked as a tech @ Carslile Ford in St. Pete Florida for 4 years. (early-mid 90's) The management there demanded 0% come-backs (You fixed it without making a penny labor if it came back) You got an inspection, & vehicle wahed/vacuumed no matter what you came in for. Along with the rental fleet for overnight warrany repairs, they had daily use cars avail to customes for free, if they were just getting something simple done & needed wheels for the day. Customer service was #1... They would even send us to a customers house for something simple like a car stereo problem, or send us to retrieve the customers car & leave a rental in some cases.
Now I know that you will NOT get this kind of service from ANY of the local dealerships, but that lack of service isn't nessesarily Fords fault. Yes, ford should monitor these things, and to a point they do. While I worked @ that dealership another dealership up the road called Big John Naughton Ford, was screwing older customers over left and right. When Ford caught wind of the severity, by the end of that business day, there was not a single new Ford car on the lot, nor was there a single Ford emblem, sign, flag, or sticker visible on the property. They pulled the dealerships franchise license & they were instantly, 100% out of business.
Unfortunately though, I have to admit that I have found the local dealerships to be utterly useless.
But the point of my post, is that the dealerships are franchises... The local owners/management have more to do with the service than Ford does; and there are a few good ones out there.

[Silver_2000]

just saw this about the plant shutdowns in JAN


Workers will be laid off two weeks in January, and one week in March. They can collect unemployment equal to 80 percent of their net pay.



That MUST be from the factories because there isnt any one getting 80% from Unemployment

[98Cobra]

So true. I am sure that is in the UAW contract.

BTW, on another forum I visit, I saw this today:

http://laborpains.org/2008/12/12/22-pounds-uaw-rules-and-regulations/

[Silver_2000]

what a lawyers dream


AMOUNT OF BENEFITS
Section 1. Regular Benefits
(a) The Regular Benefit payable to an eligible Employee for
any Week shall be an amount which, when added to his
State Benefit and other compensation, will equal 95% of
his Weekly After-Tax Pay, minus $30.00 to take into
account work-related expenses not incurred; provided,
however, that such benefit shall not exceed $200 for any
Week with respect to which the Employee is not receiving
State System Benefits because of a reason listed in
item (ii) or (vi) of Section 1(b) of Article I and is laid off
or continues on layoff by reason of having refused to
accept work when recalled pursuant to the Collective
Bargaining Agreement or having refused an offer by the
Company of other available work at the same Plant or at
another Plant in the same labor market area (as defined
in Section 3(b)(3) of Article I); except that refusal by
ARTICLE II AMOUNT OF BENEFITS
21

skilled Tool and Die, Maintenance and Construction or
Power House Employees or apprentices of work other
than work in Tool Room Departments, Maintenance
Departments and Power House Departments, respectively,
shall not result in the application of the maximum
provided for in this Paragraph.
(b) An otherwise eligible Employee entitled to a Benefit
reduced because of ineligibility (or eligibility for a Leveling
Week Benefit) with respect to part of the Week, as
provided in Section 3(d) of Article I (reason for layoff or
eligibility for a disability, pension or retirement benefit,
for disciplinary reasons or for any of the reasons stated
in Section 3(b)(2)(i) of Article I), will receive 1/5 of a
Regular Benefit computed under Subsection (a) of this
Section for each work day of the Week in which he is
otherwise eligible.
Section 2. Automatic Short Week Benefit
(a) The Automatic Short Week Benefit payable to an eligible
Employee for any Week beginning on or after December
1, 2007 shall be an amount equal to the product of the
number by which forty (40) exceeds his Compensated or
Available hours, computed to the nearest tenth of an
hour, multiplied by eighty percent (80%) of his Base
Hourly Rate (plus eighty percent (80%) of any applicable
cost-of-living allowance in effect at the time of
computation of the Benefit, but excluding all other
premiums and bonuses of any kind).
(b) An Employee, who breaks Seniority during a Week by
reason of death or of retirement under the provisions of
the Retirement Plan established by agreement between
the Company and the Union and is eligible for an
Automatic Short Week Benefit with respect to certain
hours of layoff during the Week prior to the date his
Seniority is broken, will receive an amount computed as
provided in Subsection 2(a) of this Section based on the
number by which the hours for which the Employee
would regularly have been compensated exceeds his
Compensated or Available hours with respect to that
part of the Week prior to the date his Seniority is broken.

An employee who "breaks Seniority by Death " gets an automatic short week benefit ... sounds good to me...

Breaks Seniority by Death ??? WTF

[Silver_2000]

local UAW quote


Local assembly workers now hope President Bush will tap into the 700-billion-dollar Wall Street bailout, and send some money to them.

Enrique Flores, the local UAW president, says the money will help everyone. "It is to help keep us going and if we go under we'll have no money to spend. we're not going to spend it on products out there. Sooner or later it's going to reach everybody. It's going to impact everybody."

Workers will be laid off two weeks in January, and one week in March. They can collect unemployment equal to 80 percent of their net pay.

[dboat]

what a lawyers dream



An employee who "breaks Seniority by Death " gets an automatic short week benefit ... sounds good to me...

Breaks Seniority by Death ??? WTF

my head is spinning.. whatever happened to plain and clear language?

Dana

[99WhiteBeast]

Found this today- interesting
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

[tiffo60]

Found this today- interesting
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

definitley interesting, good find:tu:

[TP Derrick D]

definitley interesting, good find:tu:

+1 Steve-O,
you know we're our own worst enemy....:confused:

[98Cobra]

Wow, that was cool. Having toured the St. Louis plant I can definately say it doesn't look like that. :)

[Silver_2000]

Found this today- interesting
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

As aI was watching that I was thinking - nope UAW wouldnt allow that - Nope - no flexible assembly lines - Nope wont wear uniforms - Nope no 3rd party people -

[my2002lightning]

That Ford plant and the others should be in the US.:hammer:



Found this today- interesting
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

[Mark #2]

That Ford plant and the others should be in the US.:hammer:

Not when the workers there probably get, room, board, uniforms, and a couple of dollars a day. That is the compensation model in many off-shore factories.

[L8 APEX]

The UAW needs to be abolished...

[my2002lightning]

Well, given that, perhaps the business model, legislation and overall reform should be enacted and brought in-place to bring those jobs back to the US and make the auto-industry profitable with US workers.

Off-shoring has hit alot of us hard in the IT industry. The IT market is flooded with the Hindi especially and it's only getting worse.



Not when the workers there probably get, room, board, uniforms, and a couple of dollars a day. That is the compensation model in many off-shore factories.

[98Cobra]

Well, given that, perhaps the business model, legislation and overall reform should be enacted and brought in-place to bring those jobs back to the US and make the auto-industry profitable with US workers.

Off-shoring has hit alot of us hard in the IT industry. The IT market is flooded with the Hindi especially and it's only getting worse.

You should see the cafeteria at Parkwood these days. :eek2:

[my2002lightning]

How do you like that smell of all the microwaved left-over currie from that bunch?:vomit:



You should see the cafeteria at Parkwood these days. :eek2:

[L8 APEX]

turban cleaning and sandal polishing, durka durka...:icon_eek:

[98Cobra]

Maybe if the UAW sold their GOLF COURSE it wouldn't seem odd that they want a bailout...

http://www.dcexaminer.com/opinion/Should_UAW_Sell_its_Championship_Golf_Course.html

[Ohmsby]

Chrysler is shutting down U S assembly for a month

[my2002lightning]

More info as this mess unravels: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28284256/


Chrysler is shutting down U S assembly for a month

[L8 APEX]

Meanwhile the UAW draws full pay???

[Ohmsby]

Fock em :throw: The UAW is probably the #1 problem facing any of the big three IMHO

Let em file #11 reorg and pay a wage that is competitive in the market which they play

Interestingly enough I still feel the same way about this Fock em

[dboat]

Meanwhile the UAW draws full pay???

95% of full pay.. bet those boys are happy... nice month long vacation at Christmas time on 95% pay.. must be nice..

Dana

[Beaudee]

Interestingly enough I still feel the same way about this Fock em

:vomit: Let em file 11 and farm work out of the states or have illegals build AMERICAN CARS.Wheres your patriotism:vomit:You dont have a clue!!If it was up to them the POS exec. wouldnt pay holiday pay and would screw the workin man every chance he got.ITS MISS MANAGEMANT,THE ECONOMY, and OOOILLLL.:vomit:Lets make an example,i hire Terry to work on my truck ,promise so much money and sign a contract.He does a flawless job of course and given the bad economy,sales are down,had a bad year i cant pay we gotta re-negotiate EXCUSE.BWWWAAAAAAA!!!! Its all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Silver_2000]

:vomit: Let em file 11 and farm work out of the states or have illegals build AMERICAN CARS.Wheres your patriotism:vomit:You dont have a clue!!If it was up to them the POS exec. wouldnt pay holiday pay and would screw the workin man every chance he got.ITS MISS MANAGEMANT,THE ECONOMY, and OOOILLLL.:vomit:Lets make an example,i hire Terry to work on my truck ,promise so much money and sign a contract.He does a flawless job of course and given the bad economy,sales are down,had a bad year i cant pay we gotta re-negotiate EXCUSE.BWWWAAAAAAA!!!! Its all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Your on the beach in cancun - what do you care ? :evil

I dont disagree that having employees work a s team has benefits - BUT the unions have in my opinion taken it too far and have to take some responsibility for the issues the "working man " now faces

[Beaudee]

Your on the beach in cancun - what do you care ? :evil

I dont disagree that having employees work a s team has benefits - BUT the unions have in my opinion taken it too far and have to take some responsibility for the issues the "working man " now faces

Unions have contracts Doug,when you sign one and are screwd are you gona take it layin down.If you cant put up you shouldnt sign PERIOD.Thats what negotiations are all about.:hammer:

[L8 APEX]

I have worked for the last 16 years. Since I was 17 I always got paid holidays and a good wage. My employers were every compassionate. As long as the work was there we shared in the spoils. When the work was not there was all made sacrifices. I do a good job because I care not because of the pay. Employers have been very fair to eployees for the last 40 years. The govt has enough Federal laws in place that unions are not needed. The FLA, Military leave act etc are enough...

[Silver_2000]

Unions have contracts Doug,when you sign one and are screwd are you gona take it layin down.If you cant put up you shouldnt sign PERIOD.Thats what negotiations are all about.:hammer:

What does that mean ?

Let me translate to what I think it means.
THis is what I think the Unions and its members are saying.

We threatened to strike ( both public and private ) unless we got what we wanted. The economy was doing well when we negotiated and the company caved to our demands because if they didnt we wouldn't make cars or if we did we would intentionally **** them up. We have a contract that is bankrupting the company we work for and we dont care. The company signed the contract - they need to live up to the terms. We expect the people of the US to give the big 3 charity so that they can meet the terms of the contract. We would rather bankrupt the company and help bankrupt the Country rather than realize the ecomomy has changed and we need to change with it. We expect handouts, making money for not working is the American way .....

[dboat]

:vomit: Let em file 11 and farm work out of the states or have illegals build AMERICAN CARS.Wheres your patriotism:vomit:You dont have a clue!!If it was up to them the POS exec. wouldnt pay holiday pay and would screw the workin man every chance he got.ITS MISS MANAGEMANT,THE ECONOMY, and OOOILLLL.:vomit:Lets make an example,i hire Terry to work on my truck ,promise so much money and sign a contract.He does a flawless job of course and given the bad economy,sales are down,had a bad year i cant pay we gotta re-negotiate EXCUSE.BWWWAAAAAAA!!!! Its all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Beau,
IF all of the stakeholders, (i.e. bondholders, vendors, suppliers) AND the UAW dont participate and give some back, then the Big Three will have no other choice than to file Ch 11.. If and most likely, When they do your contract is cancelled, kaput, over with, done, finished, out, gone, undone, etc etc.. It is in the UAW's best interest to come to the table and give up some of the "over the top" benefits that keep the auto companies from being competitive. The biggest ones are the JOBS fund, which guarantee that a person that is laid off or downsized out gets 95% of their pay for up to two years. The other is the pension plans, when they should be moving to a 401k type of retirement plan.. Lastly, since when should labor dictate to management how to run their business? as is the case here. That part is ridiculous, dont get me wrong, management would be foolish to not include labor in creating new ways to become better and more efficient, but I havent seen anything like what goes on at our factories due to the contract with the UAW..

Dana

[tiffo60]

What does that mean ?

Let me translate to what I think it means.
THis is what I think the Unions and its members are saying.

We threatened to strike ( both public and private ) unless we got what we wanted. The economy was doing well when we negotiated and the company caved to our demands because if they didnt we wouldn't make cars or if we did we would intentionally **** them up. We have a contract that is bankrupting the company we work for and we dont care. The company signed the contract - they need to live up to the terms. We expect the people of the US to give the big 3 charity so that they can meet the terms of the contract. We would rather bankrupt the company and help bankrupt the Country rather than realize the ecomomy has changed and we need to change with it. We expect handouts, making money for not working is the American way .....

Your wasting your breath Doug, You can't argue with stupid, he obviously is very naive and short minded....

[dboat]

what does that mean ?

Let me translate to what i think it means.
This is what i think the unions and its members are saying.

We threatened to strike ( both public and private ) unless we got what we wanted. The economy was doing well when we negotiated and the company caved to our demands because if they didnt we wouldn't make cars or if we did we would intentionally **** them up. We have a contract that is bankrupting the company we work for and we dont care. The company signed the contract - they need to live up to the terms. We expect the people of the us to give the big 3 charity so that they can meet the terms of the contract. We would rather bankrupt the company and help bankrupt the country rather than realize the ecomomy has changed and we need to change with it. We expect handouts, making money for not working is the american way .....

+1

[gagspa]

We threatened to strike ( both public and private ) unless we got what we wanted. The economy was doing well when we negotiated and the company caved to our demands because if they didnt we wouldn't make cars or if we did we would intentionally **** them up. We have a contract that is bankrupting the company we work for and we dont care. The company signed the contract - they need to live up to the terms. We expect the people of the US to give the big 3 charity so that they can meet the terms of the contract. We would rather bankrupt the company and help bankrupt the Country rather than realize the ecomomy has changed and we need to change with it. We expect handouts, making money for not working is the American way .....
That's pretty much the message I'm getting from them.

How good is your contract when the company files bankrupcy because you refused to renegotiate? It's not like they are asking the workers to take a paycut while the company is doing well. Instead they are asking the workers to take a paycut or not have a job!

[dboat]

Your wasting your breath Doug, You can't argue with stupid, he obviously is very naive and short minded....

Tiff, lets not call names.. I think a lot of folks have tried to explain the situation as they see it and he sees it differently. However, Beau should try to understand our point of view, just as we would try to understand his. We wouldnt be having this discussion if everything was great, because the Big Three would be and are currently, living up to their contract. However I am not sure if Beau has tried to understand the entire situation because his posts dont reflect that wisdom.

Dana

[dboat]

That's pretty much the message I'm getting from them.

How good is your contract when the company files bankrupcy because you refused to renegotiate? It's not like they are asking the workers to take a paycut while the company is doing well. Instead they are asking the workers to take a paycut or not have a job!

Actually, they are not asking tehm to necessarily take a paycut. They are asking them to have their pay be on average the same as the non-UAW folks.. according to the UAW, it appears that the average wage is about the same, its those other bennies and the operating constrictions that create the inequities. The Congressional group that contacted the UAW asked them to let the Secr of Labor do the wage comparison and then they wanted a date by which the UAW would convert, if needed, to the new wage range.. The UAW agreed to the comparison but they wouldnt give a date, except to say that their contract is up in 2011.. Well, we cant wait two years to get some of this stuff implemented.

Dana

[Silver_2000]

Tiff, lets not call names.. I think a lot of folks have tried to explain the situation as they see it and he sees it differently. However, Beau should try to understand our point of view, just as we would try to understand his. We wouldnt be having this discussion if everything was great, because the Big Three would be and are currently, living up to their contract. However I am not sure if Beau has tried to understand the entire situation because his posts dont reflect that wisdom.

Dana
+1

lets try to avoid killing each other while we talk about the issues ....

TALON is facing financial problems as well, We are in deep negotiations with TAE Union( Talon Auto Enthusiasts ) we have to reduce the jobs bank, sell the union owned golf course, and start charging for health insurance.

I hope everyone understands the need for these changes in these trying times. of course since Im "the man" and you dont have any say .... Its gonna happen whether you like it or not. Of course if you as members of the TAE ( talon auto enthusiasts ) decide to take your clicks elsewhere because of changes made here the company will likely need a handout from the govt since the TAE contracts are iron clad....

[98Cobra]

Beau - what is it about OOOOIIIIILLLLL that is causing this problem? Is it because in July it was $145/barrel? OK, thats fixed - it closed under $40 yesterday - so the cars should be flying off the shelves. They aren't? Hmmm.


I would like to point out that all the automakers are in a decline - but the big three are just in a more weakened position so they are feeling the effects. HONDA posted a half year loss of $1.4 Billion - their first in 11 years. http://www.forbes.com/markets/equities/2008/12/17/honda-cuts-guidance-markets-equity-cx_twdd_1217markets3.html

More about the UAW golf course, from the Detroit Free Press:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080907/BUSINESS01/809070512



United Auto Workers' golf course losing millions

Down a lonely country road far from the interstate hangs a banner at the UAW's golf course: "Public welcome." But a review of the golf course and adjacent education center's financial statements indicate that not enough people have been visiting.

The UAW International's golf course and education center operations on 1,000 acres near Onaway have together lost $23 million over the past five years, independent audits obtained by the Free Press show. Both are run as for-profit corporations, according to paperwork filed with the U.S. Department of Labor, and the UAW has been propping them up with loans.

"There's a lot of debate over what to do," said Arthur Wheaton, a union expert from Cornell University. "They've been having trouble there trying to get enough people to go through there to justify the expense," he added.

The facilities are reminders of another time when the autoworkers' union was flush with dues-paying members. But now the U.S. auto industry is losing money, the UAW is losing members and some people are questioning the need to keep the money-losing operations.

The UAW and others defend the properties as important assets and point out that President Ron Gettelfinger has been aggressive about cutting costs to protect the union's financial health.

While the UAW International has a huge reserve of money, the union filed financial records with the federal government stating that it spent about $2.7 million more than it took in during 2007 -- the third time over the past five years that the union spending exceeded receipts, records show.

"All you have to do is look at the membership trends and realize that there was a golden age when they could easily support the education center," said Hal Stack, director of the Labor Studies Center at Wayne State University.

"It could be that either things turn around or they sell it," he added.

From a peak of 1.5 million members in the 1970s, the UAW ranks have dropped to just 465,000 regular members, according to its most recent federal filings.

In 2007 the UAW had receipts -- union dues, fees and other income -- of $327.6 million and it spent $330.3 million. While losing members, the UAW International, since at least 2000, has been able to hold fairly steady in the amount of money it brings in and spends, according to federal records. It has $1.2 billion in net assets.

Gregg Shotwell, a UAW activist, is not troubled to learn that the education center is losing money. "When you are educating and training union members, that's the business of the union. That's never a loss," Shotwell said.

But the golf course is a different story to Shotwell. "We should be running a union -- not a country club," he said.

The education center, which opened in the 1970s, was legendary UAW President Walter Reuther's dream -- a place where workers could "gather and learn and work together to build a community and solidarity that would help build a strong unity as part of the educational activity," said Roger Kerson, a UAW spokesman. "That vision has certainly succeeded."

Walter Reuther's vision

The Walter and May Reuther Family Education Center, or Black Lake, as it is often called, clearly holds a special place in UAW history.

"UAW members -- if you've never been to the UAW Family Education Center at Black Lake, it's worth begging your local union president for an opportunity to attend a conference here," Dona Jean Gillespie, of UAW Local 602 in Lansing, wrote on her blog, Blue Collar Heart, last month. "There's a peace here at Black Lake," as though Walter Reuther's spirit were present.

Last year, 9,000 members attended classes at the education center and 13,000 rounds of golf were played, including 1,000 donated for charity events and such, Kerson said. UAW members played 4,000 of the rounds, he said.

"The UAW family education center is an integral part of our union. It provides very important training and education activities for our members," Kerson said. He declined to talk about specific operation numbers or plans for the future.

The UAW Web site says the Black Lake facilities are funded from interest on the union's strike fund. "No union anywhere in the world offers an education center of this magnitude to its members. With its stunning design, beautiful location and warm, open atmosphere it is the envy of labor educators."

Course cost $6 million

The UAW opened the adjacent Rees Jones-designed golf course, which reportedly cost at least $6 million, in 2000, before Gettelfinger became the union's president. The UAW said that it has won several honors, including rankings by Golf Digest and Golf for Women magazines.

UAW members and retirees get a 20% and 30% discount, respectively, on greens fees, according to the course's Web site. Golf with a cart on a summer weekend costs $85 for 18 holes. The course offers five tees on nearly every hole to reflect a golfer's skill. The par 72 course can play from 5,058 yards to 7,030 yards.

"Our objective is to make it a state-of-the-art facility that continues to provide the best possible education for our members, while also giving the center the potential to be used during off times as a conference center for outside groups," the golf course's Web site quotes Gettelfinger saying.

Wheaton, the union expert from Cornell University, estimates that he has taught training courses at the Black Lake education center around 40 times over as many as 10 years. "We were part of doing training programs for the UAW and Ford several years ago, and they started to say instead of teaching in other places we want to do many more of our programs at Black Lake, specifically to help utilize the facilities," Wheaton said.

Wheaton said the UAW opened the golf course with the hope of attracting more people to the facility, even going so far as to invite the public.

Stack, the Wayne State labor expert, said the education center "has been losing money for some time."

"In the old days, they had a percentage of the per capita that supported the education center. Obviously when they had a million-and-a-half members, that was no problem," Stack said. "As they have declined in membership and dues income, their budget available to support the education center has subsequently declined."

Stack added: "Given what's going on in the economy, they don't have as many members to go up there as used to be going up there all of the time."

When the Detroit automakers hire workers at a second-tier wage allowed under the new labor contract, Stack said he could see an immediate need for the education center to help train new members. "One could argue that the educational effort becomes even more critical," he said.
Loans keep center afloat

Both the resort and golf course are held by a UAW-controlled holding corporation called the Union Building Corp, which is a not-for-profit organization that holds real estate for the union, records show.

The golf course is operated by a for-profit corporation called UBG Inc., which was set up for just that purpose, Labor Department records say. The education center, which reportedly has rooms to sleep 400 people, is operated by the for-profit UBE Inc. The union values the center at $27.3 million.

UBE's management of the education center has generated revenue of about $30 million over the past five years -- and net losses of $20.5 million. The operations were hit hard last year by a $5.9-million payment to an employee pension fund. And from 2003 to 2007, revenue at the education center dropped by 18%.

Over the same five years, revenue at the golf course dropped about 14%. Over five years, UBG has generated a net loss of $2.6 million. Records indicate that since opening in 2000 the golf course has never turned a profit.

Audits of both UBE and UBG by Clarence Johnson, a certified public accountant from Royal Oak, said UBE had a negative retained earning of $20.6 million and UBG had a $4.2-million negative retained earning at the end of 2007. The two entities had loans payable to the UAW International worth a total of $24 million.

Aside from the loans, UAW International's financial statements show expenses to the UBE for several conferences and other activities. In 2007 alone, the UAW International paid UBE $3.3 million for services.

Also, the union's executive board is authorized to transfer money to UBE "to help supplement the cost of education activities at the Family Education Center," a past financial statement to members said.

The losses at Black Lake are small compared with the UAW International's overall budget, said Sean McAlinden, an economist and labor expert from the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor. "That's not going to bother them for a while, but I bet it's something that they're working at."

[Ohmsby]

The model does not work you can not pay the kind of wage + benefit and anticipate making a profit in a global marketplace.

I do not feel sorry for the UAW workforce. Anyone with a pulse should have seen this coming and starting saving their pennies years ago.


PS Kel Tec is a good gun

[dboat]

PS Kel Tec is a good gun

I bet that hurt.

Dana

[Ohmsby]

yes it did but I knew you would appreciate the humor

[Beaudee]

Beau - what is it about OOOOIIIIILLLLL that is causing this problem? Is it because in July it was $145/barrel? OK, thats fixed - it closed under $40 yesterday - so the cars should be flying off the shelves. They aren't? Hmmm.


I would like to point out that all the automakers are in a decline - but the big three are just in a more weakened position so they are feeling the effects. HONDA posted a half year loss of $1.4 Billion - their first in 11 years. http://www.forbes.com/markets/equities/2008/12/17/honda-cuts-guidance-markets-equity-cx_twdd_1217markets3.html

More about the UAW golf course, from the Detroit Free Press:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080907/BUSINESS01/809070512
They fixed the oil problem:rll:I just dont like the finger pointing here towards the union worker and sayin its their fault for the slump.Both sides will take concessions.As far as golf course:tongue:i see how that got voted in:rll:Some unions will invest union money in businesses,proceeds are for the union/memebers paid for with dues.

[dboat]

They fixed the oil problem:rll:I just dont like the finger pointing here towards the union worker and sayin its their fault for the slump.Both sides will take concessions.As far as golf course:tongue:i see how that got voted in:rll:Some unions will invest union money in businesses,proceeds are for the union/memebers paid for with dues.

yes but clearly the location and the fact that it has lost money and that the leadership of the union get preferential treatment show how they are openly better and show disdain for the very folks they represent.. this is reflected in that it has always lost money...
Dana

[Silver_2000]

beau

Im not picking on union workers - its Unions - there is a difference - even though the cool aide they feed you is intended to make it seem like the Union is the workers.

I know its a HUGE stretch but an example is the phone call you get from the tens of "Police and fire charities" 90% of them are the Unions who have paid commercial telemarketers to convince you to donate to the charities, when in fact its a fund raiser for the union. The call says that the Police harmph organization - intentionally slurred so you cant hear the name, wants to send under privileged kids to a play. In return you get the Police sticker for the window of your car and you feel good about helping kids. The truth is the telemarketer gets a huge cut, the unions gets a HUGE cut and the kids get a ride to see a free play.

The point of the story is the Unions play on peoples emotions both for kids and for support of local police and fire. The truth is hidden behind the marketing. Its another example of playing to a herd mentality

[Beaudee]

Its all good,im outa here to go bow hunting,Oklahoma here i come yall have a good holiday.:beer:

[dboat]

Its all good,im outa here to go bow hunting,Oklahoma here i come yall have a good holiday.:beer:
Merry Christmas and shoot straight...

nothing like bow hunting.. good luck.

Dana

[my2002lightning]

Good luck, Beau! OK deer-archery runs until Jan. 15, 2009 so I expect you to drop another wall-hanger buck and fill-up your freezer.:D

Don't hesitate to drop a boar, either.



Its all good,im outa here to go bow hunting,Oklahoma here i come yall have a good holiday.:beer:

[L8 APEX]

In USA Today they said Toyota and Honda were able to stay competitive and survive because of their flexible labor force. Toyota was laying off 750 workers in November. Lexus was closing a plant, Honda laid of 550 folks. The moral was having the power to lay off and adjust their labor force is what keeps them in business. The big three can't shed the labor burden during hard times...

[dboat]

The big three can't shed the labor burden during hard times...

Exactly, or their overpriced benefits.

Dana

[gagspa]

I just heard Bush talk about this and I what I got out of it is that he will be giving them a "bailout". He said that normally he thinks that these companies should have to file for bankruptcy because that is the price that failed companies must pay. He then said that since these are not normal times that we have to help them anyhow. He said something about giving them a loan and by March they must have a plan that shows that they will be a viable company, including fixing the retirement and paying wages closer to Honda/Toyota. If they fail to meet these conditions then they have to pay back the loans.

Of course by then BOB will be in power and may change it all up.

[L8 APEX]

This is BS, Bush announced 17 billion available to GM and Chrysler...

[98Cobra]

Yea, once Obama is in those guarantees to change how things are done will evaporate. Unions put a lot of money into the Obama campaign this year, he owes them.

[98Cobra]

I am confused. I saw this video today and can't work out whether the problem is OOOOIIILLLLLLL, upper management, or what.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/10235271/index.html

[Mark #2]

I am confused. I saw this video today and can't work out whether the problem is OOOOIIILLLLLLL, upper management, or what.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/10235271/index.html

Oops,

I worked at steel rolling mill, and drinking lunches were the norm, a pitcher of beer each, a couple of shots and back to work.

I don't think this is anything new, but we did it in an hour not 4, so I guess our productivity was higher.;)

[Silver_2000]

I am confused. I saw this video today and can't work out whether the problem is OOOOIIILLLLLLL, upper management, or what.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/10235271/index.html

No worries only the high seniority union folks can do that, not the regular folks ....:evil:evil:evil:evil:evil:evil - I wonder if the retirement benefits include the seat at "als"

[mikelemoine]

How do you like that smell of all the microwaved left-over currie from that bunch?:vomit:

A couple of statistics about India. The top 25% tier of Indian students outnumbers the TOTAL number of students in the USA. Their birth rate is about 4.5 times that of ours and that grows exponentially. The numbers for China are similar. There are theories that Chinglish (read the instruction manual to a cheap DVD player and you'll see Chinglish) will become an accepted version of English because more people will speak it than our version! This was part of a presentation I saw in China in November.....

[98Cobra]

Well, top 25% of Indian schools does not say much IMO.

[dboat]

Well, top 25% of Indian schools does not say much IMO.

Garrett, I understand but dont be fooled. India is producing some very bright science and electronic students.. also engineering.. to take them lightly would be shortsighted at best..

IMHO

Dana

[98Cobra]

Garrett, I understand but dont be fooled. India is producing some very bright science and electronic students.. also engineering.. to take them lightly would be shortsighted at best..

IMHO

Dana

Oh I know. We just havent seen the majority of the bright ones enter our workforce yet I don't think.

[L8 APEX]

They only work here for 10 years or so and go back home.

[98Cobra]

Anyone see a pattern here?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/15908257/index.html

I hope this reporter has a good home security system.

[Silver_2000]

Anyone see a pattern here?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/15908257/index.html

I hope this reporter has a good home security system.

gets 1200 hours of overtime and can barely walk up his own driveway ...

Sure fits the stereotype ...

[Ohmsby]

:rll:can you get O time from unemployment?

Wow these guys are really not helping the stereotype

Anyone happen to catch Chrysler who spent over a million thanking us for the money we gave em WTF are these guys brain dead

[dboat]

:rll:can you get O time from unemployment?

Wow these guys are really not helping the stereotype

Anyone happen to catch Chrysler who spent over a million thanking us for the money we gave em WTF are these guys brain dead

you hit that nail on the head.. these guys just dont get it.. this is the type of thing that will be screaming across the internet and there will be a huge uproar over it.. there will be thousands of hard working folk that will see this and turn further against the union.. even union guys will turn on this kind of activity.. hopefully, the upside is that this is the type of thing that will keep the Dems and BOB from giving in to them..

Dana

[L8 APEX]

I heard GM say they will close 25% of the dealerships.

[my2002lightning]

I'll have to agree. It's a mixed-bag when dealing with on and off-shore Hindi.


Oh I know. We just havent seen the majority of the bright ones enter our workforce yet I don't think.

[dboat]

I'll have to agree. It's a mixed-bag when dealing with on and off-shore Hindi.


hmmm... wonder what they say about us:confused:

[Silver_2000]

hmmm... wonder what they say about us:confused:

I can tell you - but Im not going to post it in public

[98Cobra]

Heh. Thought this was members-only. :)

[dboat]

I can tell you - but Im not going to post it in public

you have said all you need to here..

[dboat]

Got this via email today.... on target if you ask me.. not sure if its real but someone else can check that.. I just like it on the face of it.

Letter from Troy Clarke, President of General Motors - followed by a response from Gregory Knox of Knox Machinery:

Dear Employees & suppliers,

Next week, Congress and the current Administration will determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation's history. Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis......................As an employee or supplier, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard.

Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.

Troy Clarke President General Motors North America
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Gregory Knox,

In response to your request to call legislators and ask for a bailout for the United States automakers please consider the following, and please also pass this onto Troy Clark, the president of General Motors North America for me.

You are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has bred like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping the nation, awaiting our new "messiah" to wave his magical wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep "living the dream"…

The dream is over!

The dream that we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for these atrocities…and that still the masses will line up to buy our products

Don't tell me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM's and Tier ones for 3 decades now throughout the Midwest and what I've seen over the years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.

Mr. Clark, the president of General Motors, states:

“There is widespread sentiment in this country, our government and especially in the media that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management. It is not…”

You're right – it's not JUST management…how about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag ass…so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time…for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour week.

How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics…for putting out too many parts on a shift…and for being too productive (mustn't expose the lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?) Do you really not know about this stuff?!?

How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea:

“over the last few years …we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors.”

What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!?

Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them?

The K car vs. the Accord? The Pinto vs. the Civic?!?

Do I need to go on?

We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades.

Time to pay for your sins, Detroit .

I attended an economic summit last week where a brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money". Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems, but despite what people like George Bush and Troy Clark would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day… and something else would happen…where there had been greedy and sloppy banks new efficient ones would pop up…that is how a free market system works…it does work…if we would let it work…

But for some reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't work – that we need the government to step in and "save us"…save us, hell – we're nationalizing…and unfortunately too many of this once fine nations citizens don't even have a clue that this is what's really happening…but they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams…yeah – THAT'S important…

Does it occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades now in this country?...

How can that be???

Let's see…

Fuel efficient…
Listening to customers…
Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul…
Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr W Edwards Deming 4 decades ago.
Ever increased productivity through quality, lean and six sigma plans…
Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy"…
Efficient front and back offices…
Non union environment…

Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know in their hearts.

I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into – my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did at their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way) – I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work them through.

Radical concept, huh…

Am I there for them in the wings? Of course – but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults.

I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government.

Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins.

Bad news people – it's coming whether we like it or not

The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away" I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the vote count was tallied…"we might not do it in a year…or in four…" where was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for the office

Stop trying to put off the inevitable …

That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000…

People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits…

That job driving that forklift for the big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year…

We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe…

That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home…

Let the market correct itself people – it will. Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it is a nation that appreciates what is has…and doesn't live beyond its means…and gets back to basics…and redevelops the work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world…and probably turns back to God.

Sorry – don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you the "bad news"


Gregory J. Knox
President
Knox Machinery, Inc.
Franklin, Ohio 45005

[98Cobra]

TRUE - according to snopes!

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/knox.asp

[Silver_2000]

I had forgotten the conversation I had at an assembly line job a few years back - I was working holiday shifts for a safe company - they cranked up the line speed to increase out put and brought in schleps like me to help meet the higher volume - this was 25+ years ago - the conversation went something like " Boy, you need to slow down and take your time, we dont want to keep up with the line, if we do then "they" will think its ok to run the line at this speed. Your a temp - you work the way we tell you."

[Silver_2000]

just saw this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090109/ap_on_bi_ge/autos_meltdown)

hope its true


Provisions of General Motors' and Chrysler's $17.4 billion in federal loans automatically places them in default if union workers go on strike.

[Ohmsby]

:beer: Maybe Bernard Madoff can help

[dboat]

I did get a pretty good chuckle out of Hustler and Girls Gone Wild requesting some of the bail out money too.. we sure couldnt let the porn industry take it in the shorts:icon_redface:.. er, get caught by the short hairs:icon_redface:... er, get caught with their pants down:icon_redface:... er.. well you know what I mean.. :evil

Dana

[dboat]

:beer: Maybe Bernard Madoff can help

Speaking of this.. did you see where some folks are in a quandry because they actually have made money with this guy and dont know if they should get in line to get some bailout money.. OMG!!!!

Dana

[98Cobra]

Well, the problem is they are trying to set up a fund to protect people that lost money - but since it is a pyramid scheme, some people have made money so far - the worry is that if they have to give the money back, THEN they will need help, but no one knows if they are going to have to give it back, and to who, and when. But if you dont apply for the help now, you wont get it later when you need it. Its a mess.

[dboat]

Well, the problem is they are trying to set up a fund to protect people that lost money - but since it is a pyramid scheme, some people have made money so far - the worry is that if they have to give the money back, THEN they will need help, but no one knows if they are going to have to give it back, and to who, and when. But if you dont apply for the help now, you wont get it later when you need it. Its a mess.

yep, but no one would have to give money back, these were folks that made money, just not as much as they could have, and are now lining up to get some more..

Dana