What is and is not forced induction?

[joshc_guitar]

Is nitrous in fact forced induction? I don't think so but a friend and I are debating it. What do you think? Also running with a SuperCharger. Is that considered motor? My Friend say that runnign spray is running motor and s/c isn't.

[99WhiteBeast]

I would say no but it is a power adder.

[Shiner1]

i would say no but it is a power adder.

+1

[joshc_guitar]

thats what i'm saying. Power adder yes, F/I no.

[joshc_guitar]

*edit op*

[Sandman]

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_induction)

Two of the commonly used forced induction technologies are turbochargers and superchargers. They differ primarily in the power source for the compressor. There is a difference between forced induction and power adders. A power adder is anything that improves an engine's power output, which does not necessarily mean increasing charge density. Oxidizing technologies such as nitrous oxide injection systems provide improved power, but are not a form of forced induction.

Debate over.:twitch:

[joshc_guitar]

what about the running "motor". my friend drives a sprayed Mustang GT and i told him I'd pull him on motor. He considers "motor" to be sprayed, and that if I were to run "motor" I'd have to yank my blower off.

Agree?

[Sandman]

Running motor is exactly that. Running on just the motor. You can run a vehicle without spraying even though it is bottle fed. Harder to do on a supercharged vehicle. I guess you could pull the blower belt on your L.

[TXLIGHTNING]

Running motor is exactly that. Running on just the motor. You can run a vehicle without spraying even though it is bottle fed. Harder to do on a supercharged vehicle. I guess you could pull the blower belt on your L. Exactly right. When you run the motor without any power adders is call naturally aspirated. If he is putting the smack to it then he is running a power adder :tu:

[TXLIGHTNING]

what about the running "motor". my friend drives a sprayed Mustang GT and i told him I'd pull him on motor. He considers "motor" to be sprayed, and that if I were to run "motor" I'd have to yank my blower off.

Agree? Don't even try to race him with the blower belt off :tex You will lose.

[joshc_guitar]

Don't even try to race him with the blower belt off :tex You will lose.

That just sounds like an all around bad idea.

[joshc_guitar]

Running motor is exactly that. Running on just the motor. You can run a vehicle without spraying even though it is bottle fed. Harder to do on a supercharged vehicle. I guess you could pull the blower belt on your L.


So you're saying that me running "motor" would involve makeing my blower inactive in some way? I think not b/c its a part of my motor.

[TXLIGHTNING]

So you're saying that me running "motor" would involve makeing my blower inactive in some way? I think not b/c its a part of my motor. You can remove the blower belt and the truck will still run, but like a slug.

[Shiner1]

what about the running "motor". my friend drives a sprayed Mustang GT and i told him I'd pull him on motor. He considers "motor" to be sprayed, and that if I were to run "motor" I'd have to yank my blower off.

Agree?

How much juice is he using?

[joshc_guitar]

You can remove the blower belt and the truck will still run, but like a slug.


But thats not it. Is that considered running "motor" or is leaving my motor intact running "motor?"

[Sandman]

Running motor means no power adders. Of course, the blower is a power adder. So for you to run motor you have to disable it somehow.

[joshc_guitar]

but isn't the blower infact part of my motor?

[WA 2 FST]

but isn't the blower infact part of my motor?

Your friend is just arguing like a dork.

First of all, to build a real forced induction engine application you _design_ the engine around the S/C or turbo. Ford did this with their supercharged applications, lowering the base compression ratio among other things. Even if you pulled the blower belt, took the blower off (b/c its a big restriction if it is not spinning... so running without the blower belt is not the same as ONLY running without the supercharger), and modified the intake so that it is like that of a regular 5.4 Triton engine, you would still be slower than a stock 5.4 truck b/c of the lower compression.

So people that say "take the belt off" or "bypass the turbos" are complete morons. The engine is _designed_ with those in the engineering parameters, just like high compression engines are designed to make max power without forced induction.

"Motor" in the case of a Lightning is with the supercharger. Period. You can spray on top of that, and then it is no longer "motor". For you buddy's car, motor is naturally aspirated WITHOUT the nitrous.

[TXLIGHTNING]

[quote=WA 2 FST;161370] So people that say "take the belt off" or "bypass the turbos" are complete morons.quote] I don't consider myself a moron Wes. All I said is the truck will run without the SC belt, but like a SLUG. I also said not to do this because it cant be good for the truck.

[WA 2 FST]

[quote=WA 2 FST;161370] So people that say "take the belt off" or "bypass the turbos" are complete morons.quote] I don't consider myself a moron Wes. All I said is the truck will run without the SC belt, but like a SLUG. I also said not to do this because it cant be good for the truck.

No, no no ... please don't get me wrong. I wasn't referring to you or anyone else here. Sorry... I was typing fast and didn't go back and read all the posts.

I have heard this at the track, and it is just another racer trying to make a silly statement. The point others make is basically, "I could beat you if you didn't have a supercharger." Ok, well fine. When I built my old S/C'd Mustang the entire engine combo was well-thought-out and designed with the hairdryer in mind. This is nothing different than a factory-built S/C'd application. You sacrifice N/A power in order to run more boost effectively and efficiently with the blower. A lot of people who don't run forced induction don't realize that, and they are completely off-base asking someone else to pull their belt off or "take off the turbo" so they can beat you. That is just silly.

I've fired up my truck and drove it for a short distance without the belt on. As you said, yes it will run/operate, but it runs poorly from a performance perspective. I'm not disagreeing with anything you said, and certainly didn't mean to infer that you were a "moron."

[TXLIGHTNING]

[quote=TXLIGHTNING;161371]

No, no no ... please don't get me wrong. I wasn't referring to you or anyone else here. Sorry... I was typing fast and didn't go back and read all the posts.

I have heard this at the track, and it is just another racer trying to make a silly statement. The point others make is basically, "I could beat you if you didn't have a supercharger." Ok, well fine. When I built my old S/C'd Mustang the entire engine combo was well-thought-out and designed with the hairdryer in mind. This is nothing different than a factory-built S/C'd application. You sacrifice N/A power in order to run more boost effectively and efficiently with the blower. A lot of people who don't run forced induction don't realize that, and they are completely off-base asking someone else to pull their belt off or "take off the turbo" so they can beat you. That is just silly.

I've fired up my truck and drove it for a short distance without the belt on. As you said, yes it will run/operate, but it runs poorly from a performance perspective. I'm not disagreeing with anything you said, and certainly didn't mean to infer that you were a "moron." No harm done Wes :beer:

[Sandman]

[quote=TXLIGHTNING;161371]

No, no no ... please don't get me wrong. I wasn't referring to you or anyone else here. Sorry... I was typing fast and didn't go back and read all the posts.

I have heard this at the track, and it is just another racer trying to make a silly statement. The point others make is basically, "I could beat you if you didn't have a supercharger." Ok, well fine. When I built my old S/C'd Mustang the entire engine combo was well-thought-out and designed with the hairdryer in mind. This is nothing different than a factory-built S/C'd application. You sacrifice N/A power in order to run more boost effectively and efficiently with the blower. A lot of people who don't run forced induction don't realize that, and they are completely off-base asking someone else to pull their belt off or "take off the turbo" so they can beat you. That is just silly.

I've fired up my truck and drove it for a short distance without the belt on. As you said, yes it will run/operate, but it runs poorly from a performance perspective. I'm not disagreeing with anything you said, and certainly didn't mean to infer that you were a "moron."

Hmm.. you have me curious as well now.

Agreed that the truck is not going to run correctly with the blower disabled, but like wise many serious nitrous applications design with that in mind as well. Not using the spray will result in performance in a way the system was not designed. Would you say in this situation "Motor" includes the nos?

Now, the Mustang in question was almost undoubtly built to run with no power adders. The nitrous was an add on. The L on the other hand was not, just like you stated.

[WA 2 FST]

[quote=WA 2 FST;161372]

Hmm.. you have me curious as well now.

Agreed that the truck is not going to run correctly with the blower disabled, but like wise many serious nitrous applications design with that in mind as well. Not using the spray will result in performance in a way the system was not designed. Would you say in this situation "Motor" includes the nos?

Now, the Mustang in question was almost undoubtly built to run with no power adders. The nitrous was an add on. The L on the other hand was not, just like you stated.

Nitrous motors can still run exceptionally well off-the-bottle. They can run high-compression, and most do. Certainly there is some different tuning that goes on when trying to make the max power on "motor" and on "nitrous". Colder plugs and reduced timing will be a must with nitrous, and if you were then going to run the car without nitrous, you'd want to adjust the tuning a little bit in order to get every last HP out of the combination.

But plenty of nitrous motors run 11.0:1 CR, so they are not like a FI motor where low base compression is a given.

[PUMP]

To paraphrase one of my favorites:
" How are we going to teach the world logic, when we insist that the sun is setting instead of the horizon rising"
The term "running motor" when applied to internal combustion engines, derives from "motor only". it is meant to refer to the natural volumeric efficiency of a normally asperiated engine at atmospheric pressure. For a given engine, its displacement volume fixes how much fuel and air (and we're only concerned about the amount of oxygene) that can be used. The amount of fuel input fixes the limit of energy output.
So this thread is discussing how oxygene is fed to the engine instead of how to input and efficiently burn more fuel so that we can improve upon the natural volumeric efficiency of an engine.

[my2002lightning]

My understanding is that forced-induction is limited to S/Cs and turbos. Either application that shoves more A/F into the combustion chamber would fall into this category.

NOS is a "power-adder" and any carburated/FI setup is "all-motor".

That's my understanding anyway...

[ZeusSVT]

It's simple. Run what you brung. Period. If he's running nitrous then spend some money and spray your truck if you think he has an advantage. An arguement at the track or a "street race" (in some foriegn land, of course) about well we will be equal if you take this or that off is a pile of crap. You have yours modded, he has his modded. There is always someone faster. If he beats you, buy more mods....it's that simple.

I know this really doesn't answer your question, sorry. But the arguement your friend is having with you is just out right stupid.

That my 2 cents....now go spend it on some mods. :evil

[WA 2 FST]

But the arguement your friend is having with you is just out right stupid.



I agree. That was like this time I was at the track and these silly Hondas with fart-cans running 14.8s with nothing in the car but a driver's seat... completely stripped everything out to the bare metal... and this guy's friend looked at me and said, "well, if you cut your motor in half, we would beat you." I was in my 600rwhp Mustang. I was completely dumbfounded that someone would say something so idiotic, so it took me a second, but then I said, "no, I'd still have 350hp and would crush that little tin-can you call a racecar."

I kid you not... true story.

[ZeusSVT]

I agree. That was like this time I was at the track and these silly Hondas with fart-cans running 14.8s with nothing in the car but a driver's seat... completely stripped everything out to the bare metal... and this guy's friend looked at me and said, "well, if you cut your motor in half, we would beat you." I was in my 600rwhp Mustang. I was completely dumbfounded that someone would say something so idiotic, so it took me a second, but then I said, "no, I'd still have 350hp and would crush that little tin-can you call a racecar."

I kid you not... true story.


:rll::rll:

[Shiner1]

Fok it, run him with the spray. You have the torq on your side. Don't break lose and you should pull him. If you don't........Like Zeus says....."stop being a cheap bastard and buy some mods":evil

[SILVER2000SVT]

what about the running "motor". my friend drives a sprayed Mustang GT and i told him I'd pull him on motor. He considers "motor" to be sprayed, and that if I were to run "motor" I'd have to yank my blower off.

Agree?

Your friend is grossly confused if he thinks that he can spray nitrous and call it running on motor. When it comes to forced induction like turbos or superchargers "running on motor" is a little more subjective. If you talk to someone who owns a vehicle that came with a turbo or supercharger they will likely tell you that they are running on motor. But someone who runs a vehicle without forced injection might say that forced injection motors can never "run on motor".
Sounds like your friend is trying to make excuses so he doesn't get beat.

[mikelemoine]

Tell him you'll disconnect your SC belt if he installs a hitch and tows a Ski Nautique when you race. That ought to even out the HP to weight ratio:nana2

[joshc_guitar]

We actually went to Buffalo Wild Wings and debated this last night. It turned into is running S/C running "motor" or not. then we debated the legitimacy of the SVT Raptor. I vote that it's not deserving of the SVT title. (even though I know SVT developed it) It's just like branding an off road Cheby with a SS badge. I don't like it.

[bluebullet80]

you can argue it both ways but ultimately dry and wet shot of nitrous is not " forced" induction... it is shot through your induction but direct port can be argued because it is "forced" but is not part of your induction... nitrous is designed to lower discharge temp and allow a more powerful combustion in the form of liquid nitrous oxide using a ratio of fuel with it... direct port is injected right before the cylinder in the intake port so i don't see how that is forced induction it is a power adder or additive. forced induction increases charge density nitrous injection doesn't

[tiffo60]

Isn't it true that with either nitrous or blower you are forcing compressed air into the motor that cant be naturally brought in?

[Sandman]

Isn't it true that with either nitrous or blower you are forcing compressed air into the motor that cant be naturally brought in?

With nawwzzz you are increasing the oxygen content and super cooling which increases the density of the air. Nothing forced about that.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question259.htm

[TT_6SPD_95]

Forced Induction means adding more air to an engine outside of the engines "natural" induction parameters.

Turbochargers and Superchargers do this Mechanically by compressing air and ultimately feeding it to the engines intake manifold.

Nitrous does this process chemically rather than mechanically feeding the already compressed air from the nitrous bottle and ultimately feeding it to the intake manifold.

The only difference is one does the process mechanically and one does it chemically.

Either way just race and who cares about the wording, or how someone else can twist the wording around to mean what they want it to mean. Just race and have fun! :)

[TT_6SPD_95]

Here is an interesting article that I just found on a musclecar website...google works well. :) It is about forced induction and it talks about all the various ways that forced induction can be achieved from an engine:

http://www.musclecarclub.com/library/tech/forced-induction.shtml