Radiation and Radioactivity in Japan

[Silver_2000]

Im shocked at Japans response to this disaster

The recent news of 2 employees that managed to wade into water that had 10,000 times the radiation allowed.

How does the contractor in charge of the plant put people in that environment with ankle high boots and no survey meter after this kind of emergency.

About 20 years ago I was Radiation Safety Officer for an Xray company I owned part of. I couldn't do ANYTHING without a survey meter. I also wore a film badge and a instant read dosimeter.. I was using Xray - unplug it and it stops making radiation. Point it away from you and almost no radiation comes out the back. NO chance for contamination. Yet it appears that in an emergency the workers in Japan aren't required to have the basic safety rules and equipment, that I used 20 years ago for industrial xray.

Im also shocked that there is surprise that after pumping hundreds of thousands of gallons of seawater water to cool the systems that contaminated radioactive water would escape. Where do they think it would go ? Why are they shocked that it went back to the ocean and contaminated it ?

Then there is the misreporting of the radiation amounts first its 10x allowed then 1 million x allowed then 10k x allowed - either they are unable to to basic math or they are incompetent or they are lying .... Or all 3

Finally the News media has no clue what the difference between ionizing radiation and radioactive contamination. There is zero chance of radiation from Japan coming here. It would have to pass through the earth to get here, and Radiation Safety 101 says that the earth is the best radiation shield. There is 100% chance of radioactive debris, food, water making it here. That debris may emit radiation here... There is a HUGE difference.

This disaster will be with us for a really long time.... REALLY LONG

Edit
link to article reporting 10 million error
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42280076/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

[Moonshine]

+1. I think as time passes and more of the truth comes out that this will be found to be a much larger disaster than has been reported to date.

[dboat]

The only thing I can think of is ... this is why we dont trust the government... :mad:

Dana

[Silver_2000]

Rant continues....


New readings show contamination in the ocean has spread about a mile (1.6 kilometers) farther north of the nuclear site than before. Radioactive iodine-131 was discovered just offshore from Unit 5 and Unit 6 at a level 1,150 times higher than normal, Hidehiko Nishiyama, a spokesman for the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, told reporters.
He had said earlier there was no link between the radioactive water leaking inside the plant and the radiation in the sea. On Monday, though, Nishiyama said he suspects radioactive water from the plant is leaking into the ocean.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/27/obstacles-impede-crews-japan-nuke-crisis/#ixzz1HteFRER2



Really you NOW suspect that the radioactive material in the sea is from the plant ... Really wow ....


Japan's nuclear watchdog, the Nuclear Safety Commission, said Monday that its members — government-appointed experts who monitor the atomic industry — believe that the highly radioactive water came from the containment vessel. It did not clearly state that the primary containment vessel, which protects the core, had been breached.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/27/obstacles-impede-crews-japan-nuke-crisis/#ixzz1HthfO39n

So Japans NSC says the water came from the containment vessel BUT they didnt admit that meant the vessel had been breached... OK .. Got it....

WTF

Why would ANYONE believe the Government...




TEPCO officials said Sunday that radiation in leaking water in the Unit 2 reactor was 10 million times above normal — an apparent spike that sent employees fleeing the unit. The day ended with officials saying the huge figure had been miscalculated and offering apologies.
"The number is not credible," TEPCO spokesman Takashi Kurita said hours later. "We are very sorry."
Then, TEPCO Vice President Sakae Muto said a new test had found radiation levels 100,000 times above normal — far better than the first results, though still very high.
The government and nuclear safety agency chastised TEPCO for the latest in a series of missteps.
"This sort of mistake is not something that can be forgiven," Edano said sternly Monday.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/27/obstacles-impede-crews-japan-nuke-crisis/#ixzz1HtiFSXdY



Sorry - right .... Got it ...

[Sixpipes]

What I don't understand is the apparent lack of redundant power systems to keep the plant online long enough to complete an emergency shutdown. It appears that this accident will spark another design/engineering wake-up call similar to the Chernobyl accident. And I agree, the economic and environmental effects of this accident are going to be considerably more severe than reports have indicated to this point. :cool:

[dboat]

Well, I guess we are glad this radiated water is going into the sea, right? not that it wont spread from there. OH, I did hear that there is going to be a red hot sale on salt water fish soon..
And the new, glow in the dark whale show coming to several areas of the West Coast too.

on a serious note, I agree w Dennis. Where were the plans to have these things go offline and pull back to a stable status in such an emergency?

Dana

[Ohmsby]

If I read correctly the generators were sub surface:hammer: and flooded.

I could rant for a long time as well this is an epic WTF that is just starting

[PUMP]

Nuclear users community collectively has known for a long time about the problem with spent fuel storage. Note that majority of problems with this event has been associated with inability to keep spent fuel rods cooled. Much like the way our government deals with unfunded entitlements, the nuclear user community refuses to deal with the problem of spent fuel storage/disposal.

[98Cobra]

I have not heard that the generators were subsurface. But even if they were, it wouldnt matter. Have you guys seen the tsunami footage? They'd have to be 25 feet in the air or more not to be underwater. They had battery backups but those can only last a few hours. The scale of the destruction wrought by the tsunami just eliminated all of the failsafes.

As far as the spent fuel rods - they big problem of disposal is no one wants them. We do the same thing here with them today, because facilities like Yucca Mountain will never open thanks to political pressure.

[Ohmsby]

All 13 generators were in the basement. The Japanese invented the word tsunami. I would think that this would have been a consideration when the fail proof systems were designed

[98Cobra]

Still, I submit that it wouldn't have mattered.

[Sixpipes]

The point is, due to the critical nature of nuclear accidents, there apparently was no thought given to emergency power stations in case of acts of God? To Garrett's point...man's engineering/technology abilities vs God; we come in second 100% of the time. But come on...the basement? :cool:

[Silver_2000]

well my prediction that fallout would arrive is coming true...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/03/28/radiation.us/index.html?eref=rss_us&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_us+%28RSS%3A+U.S.%2 9&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

[Mark #2]

Still, I submit that it wouldn't have mattered.
Okay, I'll take both sides on this one.
Concrete bunkers above ground would still be there, but why build them when you have already have a free bunker under ground, a basement.

Probably a good idea to make the basement water tight where the generators and other electric equipment are though.;)

The radiation in the sea is scary as this will be in their major source of food.

[dboat]

What is going to really s u c k is that this event will probably put a chill on any real movement to increase the number of reactors in the US. We really need to have more nuclear power if we are ever to become energy independent, IMHO.

Dana

[gbgary]

I have not heard that the generators were subsurface. But even if they were, it wouldnt matter. Have you guys seen the tsunami footage? They'd have to be 25 feet in the air or more not to be underwater. They had battery backups but those can only last a few hours. The scale of the destruction wrought by the tsunami just eliminated all of the failsafes.

As far as the spent fuel rods - they big problem of disposal is no one wants them. We do the same thing here with them today, because facilities like Yucca Mountain will never open thanks to political pressure.

that's exactly where they should have been then. build a mound, and/or a quake-proof building that high, and install them there. it should have been a no-brainer.

[98Cobra]

Generators that can power a datacenter are quite large and heavy. I would imagine that generators that power nuclear cooling systems for any duration would have to be even larger. Since the tsunami was such that it wiped away whole towns, how big of a mound do you think would be required?

Also, you are essentially saying that the Japanese should have never built their towns near their coasts, too.

I think they were prepared for a large quake - but this one and the tsunami that ensued were Michael Bay disaster movie level stuff that even the Japanese could not have predicted (obviously).

The funny thing is, this doesn't change my perception of nuclear power. I still think it is one of the most important energy sources we can have in the future.

[Ohmsby]

My point is that putting all of them in the basement in the first place at best is poor planning regardless of the size or type of catastrophe.

Always easier to comment in hindsight and this was a particularly nasty natural disaster.

[Silver_2000]

My point is that putting all of them in the basement in the first place at best is poor planning regardless of the size or type of catastrophe.

Always easier to comment in hindsight and this was a particularly nasty natural disaster.
Thats sorta the point its easy from here to second guess. And the disaster was bigger than anyone anticipated and designed for and certainly there are limits to what you can prepare for.

BUT
Apparently there was little or no planning for responding to disasters

The biggest issue for me is the kind of information that is coming out ...

Its as if the truth wont com out eventually ... They understate it or misstate it to avoid making people lose face ... In the mean time others suffer

[98Cobra]

I am willing to bet that TEPCO had disaster plans in place - but those plans relied on roads and infrastructure still being in place, not a river of garbage and bodies like they have instead. Scale of this disaster is just immense.

I do think that they are not being honest with the information released - the good thing is that this isn't the 60's. You can get your own info to some extent.

Map of online geiger counters - http://japan.failedrobot.com/
Live geiger counter in Tokyo - http://www.ustream.tv/channel/%E3%82%AC%E3%82%A4%E3%82%AC%E3%83%BC%E3%82%AB%E3%8 2%A6%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BF

[Moonshine]

I am willing to bet that TEPCO had disaster plans in place - but those plans relied on roads and infrastructure still being in place, not a river of garbage and bodies like they have instead. Scale of this disaster is just immense.

I do think that they are not being honest with the information released - the good thing is that this isn't the 60's. You can get your own info to some extent.


+1 on both points.

Can't speak for Japan, but here most "disaster planning" is based on things that likely won't exist or work if a real disaster strikes. i.e. if a tornado takes out the radio repeaters we'll use cell phones to communicate. Um....right, sure we will.

[98Cobra]

+1 on both points.

Can't speak for Japan, but here most "disaster planning" is based on things that likely won't exist or work if a real disaster strikes. i.e. if a tornado takes out the radio repeaters we'll use cell phones to communicate. Um....right, sure we will.

Good point, Brian. I think back to the last hurricane to hit Galveston - they turned 35 to northbound only on both sides to help evacuate the South Texas area. Still took my friend's dad 18 hours to make it back to Dallas.

[gbgary]

Generators that can power a datacenter are quite large and heavy. I would imagine that generators that power nuclear cooling systems for any duration would have to be even larger. Since the tsunami was such that it wiped away whole towns, how big of a mound do you think would be required?



as big as it takes.

http://www.valeriebarrow.com/images/silbury-closeup.jpg

[98Cobra]

Lol. Sorry, not practical. Real estate is at what you might call a premium over there.

[Sixpipes]

Interesting info on the redundancy requirements of emergency power supply to nuclear plants. :cool:

http://www.nucleartourist.com/images/PA080016-Diesel%20Generator.JPG

The emergency diesel generator building (graphic (http://www.virtualnucleartourist.com/images/dsl_bldg1.jpg)) is separate in the case of this plant. In some cases, the diesel generators may be contained within a larger building.

Every nuclear power plant has at least 2 diesel generators that provide emergency electrical power in the event that all offsite electrical power is lost. The diesel generators have turbochargers that supply combustion air. To assure that they start, emergency air storage tanks supply high pressure air to turn the diesel. As with most rotating mechanical equipment, water cooling systems and oil lubrication systems are used. The diesel generators are typically tested 1-2 times per month when they are run for about 1-4 hours. Several times per year the diesels may be run for up to 24 hours to ensure that the equipment would function during a loss of offsite power.

These generators provide power only when needed to special safety electrical distribution panels (emergency switchgear). These panels in turn supply power to those emergency pumps, valves, fans, etc. that may be required to operate in the event of the postulated catastrophic event - a simultaneous total loss of outside power and a major break in the reactor coolant system.
Emergency equipment is redundant with totally separate emergency electrical power supplies. The premise in nuclear power is that emergency equipment must be single failure-proof. This should guarantee that at least one channel (or "train") of emergency equipment will function. In a few cases, a plant may have 3 redundant trains of equipment for some emergency systems.

In the 1980's, most plants were required to add additional nonsafety-related diesel generators to comply with the Station Blackout Rule (10CFR 50.63) (http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/cfr/part050/part050-0063.html).

[Silver_2000]

Update

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/31/japans-nuclear-rescuers-inevitable-die-weeks/


Workers at the disaster-stricken Fukushima nuclear plant in Japan (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/natural-disasters/japan-earthquake.htm#r_src=ramp) say they expect to die from radiation sickness as a result of their efforts to bring the reactors under control, the mother of one of the men tells Fox News





Speaking tearfully through an interpreter by phone, the mother of a 32-year-old worker said: “My son and his colleagues have discussed it at length and they have committed themselves to die if necessary to save the nation.
“He told me they have accepted they will all probably die from radiation sickness in the short term or cancer in the long-term.”
The woman spoke to Fox News on the condition of anonymity because, she said, plant workers had been asked by management not to communicate with the media or share details with family members in order to minimize public panic.

[gbgary]

Update

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/31/japans-nuclear-rescuers-inevitable-die-weeks/







they're all heros in my book. their families should be taken care of for the rest of their lives.

[gbgary]

Lol. Sorry, not practical. Real estate is at what you might call a premium over there.

the plant survived the quake but not the water. let's see...the cost of this nuclear disaster compared to moving some earth from one place to another...don't think so.

[Silver_2000]

they're all heros in my book. their families should be taken care of for the rest of their lives.
I agree

[mikelemoine]

As I understand there are about 300 of these workers going in on shifts to work. All 300 will be sacrificed due to exposure. Imagine going to work every day and knowing that it WILL kill you, probably painfully. Kudos to these heroes.

I have to wonder if they had mounted the generators up above any potential water line, if that would have just collapsed or disintegrated in the earthquake anyway? Dirt mounds or towers can crumble in an earthquake and of course when a large wave hits them. Might have to build a solid concrete slab a couple stories thick and then put an earthquake/tornado/bomb/airplane/meteorite proof cover over it.

I am for nuclear power as it will get us off terrorist funding oil but it seems that we have a long way to go in the risk assesment department. These plants last decades and the waste even longer, so every potential disaster or attack needs to be modeled, tested and re-tested to ensure that the plant doesn't go into runaway mode if the worst case happens. There are lots of places that have had major earthquakes and/or volcanoes in the distant past (Yellowstone could have a big one any time). It will be expensive but anything is a bargain compared to what's happening in Japan now. How many generations of cancer patients and birth defects will they have, how many will the rest of us have? We'll probably never even be able to tell for sure.....

[98Cobra]

the plant survived the quake but not the water. let's see...the cost of this nuclear disaster compared to moving some earth from one place to another...don't think so.

If only it were that simple.

Again, this is one of those epic disasters. I think they were prepared for a tsunami, but not one of this kind. Otherwise 20k people wouldnt be dead or missing.

[gbgary]

If only it were that simple.

Again, this is one of those epic disasters. I think they were prepared for a tsunami, but not one of this kind. Otherwise 20k people wouldnt be dead or missing.

having the back-up generators installed at, or below, ground says otherwise. my original point that they should have been elevated stands. the cost being infintesimal in comparison to what they face now.

[98Cobra]

having the back-up generators installed at, or below, ground says otherwise. my original point that they should have been elevated stands. the cost being infintesimal in comparison to what they face now.

I think I figured out your secret identity! :D

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/360434/god-bless-you-captain-hindsight

[gbgary]

I think I figured out your secret identity! :D

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/360434/god-bless-you-captain-hindsight


:rll::d ok i hear ya. i was just responding to john's post on the first page. you kept baiting me. :icon_mrgreen: