dry ice??

[diablolightning]

I and some friends were at a subway talking and got to talking about what people do to cool their intakes and such at the track and about electric fans, ice ,etc.
A RICER friend of mine said that the next lightning I get I should put dry ice in the resuvoir ( damn is this how it is spelled??) :roll. I said that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.:rollHe said that the ricer guys that ran water to air or air to water intercoolers did that.

Has anyone ever heard of doing this or has done this?

Also does anyone have one of the little nitrous sprayers that apray the intercooler or something.??

[02BOLT]

There is a guy by the name of Ken Cryder who has a black 99-00 "L", I know he has a tank mounted in place of his battery that is tied into his intercooler system, that he packs with Dry Ice, and he swears that it is effective. He also sprays a 50-75 shot of nitous and runs consistent 7.60's to 7.80's on the gas in the 1/8 mi. I believe he surfs these boards regularly, I would create a new thread with his name to get his attention; and thus some more in depth info on this subject. I would NOT drop dry ice into your stock intercooler reservoir. I don't know if it would harm the system or not, but I don't believe it was designed for it. Hope this helps:tu:Have good one.

[L8 APEX]

Dry ice in the resivour would vaporize into Co2 and create pressure and engage the blow off most likely which is set at 15-16psi. I don't know how muc h heat it would soak either. Ken's system is isolated from the intercooler fluid so it does not build pressure. I think the spray bar you mean is a C02 cooler there was a thread on it a week ago. Something like a cryo cooler? They are less effective on water/air systems like ours.

[curtis75051]

I had ken's system on my L and it is bad ass :nana2 :beer:

[diablolightning]

I had ken's system on my L and it is bad ass :nana2 :beer:

Kens is a super coller or something like that. I saw another L at the track in ennis with one where the battery was and he had to relocate it in the bed so he could use it.

I didn't think about it but the spray thing is prolly co2:hammer:

[ken cryder]

l8 is correct the one i built is seperate . filling it half way with water and then adding dry ice helps cool the water going into the cooler in the intake , and from what i understand of it , for every degree of tempature drop you gain close to 3hp . i don't know if you put it in the resivoir(sp) whether it would harm it , because this is not a preassurized system so it could work . but what i would worry about is the contamination of your coolant (antifreeze) . i know a long time ago they used dry ice to carbonize a drink with no ill effects but antifreeze may react differently .

and those times are during the cooler part of the year in this heat it slows just like every body elses .

also mine works on the air cool then the ice cool before entering the engine .

thanks

ken

[dboat]

to see what would happen if you put dry ice in the intercooler reservoir. Since when it warms up, it turns to a gas CO2.. The real danger is in actually putting in the dry ice into the liquid. If I remember my college chemistry from 28 yrs ago, I think you would get a lot of bubbling and spraying of the antifreeze. But if you leave the cap off, assuming you put the dry ice in where the cap is, the additional gas would just flow out. If might actually work. Maybe this could be the basis of a new aftermarket product that would make us billions?!?! :banana:

Naw... :roll:evil

Dana

[ken cryder]

the biggest problem i see is when the dry ice getts small enought to escape the resevior , and travels down to the pump . impellers and dry ice wouldn't mix .

they have the bigger boxes that go in the bed , but how much tempature drop do you have from the long hose , and would it cause condensation if not insullated . then it could drip in front of your tires which is bad .

also from the reading i have done there's suppose to be a sensor some where that moniters the temprature of the water , and turns the pump off when colder conditions persist . has any body heard of this ? and has any body tried putting an inline switch on the pump to keep it circullating when cooling down between runs?


ken

[dboat]

the biggest problem i see is when the dry ice getts small enought to escape the resevior , and travels down to the pump . impellers and dry ice wouldn't mix .
Ken, this could almost never happen, at what temp does dry ice convert from a solid to a gas? it is much lower than any temp we would encounter.

they have the bigger boxes that go in the bed , but how much tempature drop do you have from the long hose , and would it cause condensation if not insullated . then it could drip in front of your tires which is bad .
I doubt this could happen as well. The temp would have to be very low to get the condensation piece to occur

also from the reading i have done there's suppose to be a sensor some where that moniters the temprature of the water , and turns the pump off when colder conditions persist . has any body heard of this ? and has any body tried putting an inline switch on the pump to keep it circullating when cooling down between runs?


ken
Ideally, you would work out a formula that would quickly drop the temp of the fluid to room temp or below, but not too much below that..

Dana

[SILVER2000SVT]

Let me think back to my fluid mechanics class. Here a a couple of things that come to mind.

One potential problem that comes to mind is trying to pump any co2 gas that will inevitiably be in the system. It will likely produce pump cavitation which normally occurs when there is too much suction (negative) pressure and causes gas bubbles to develop before the impellers and they explode when they contact the impellers causing tiny bits of damage to the impellers. Over time it destroys the impellers. Introducing gas in the system will cause the same effect.

Also I do think that there is a possibility that small chunks of of the solid dry ice making it to the pump and causing damage. I also think is possible (not likely though) that if a big enough piece got down there it could get lodged and stop the pump until it dissipated to gas.

Another issue which I don't think will make a lot of difference but if there is a substantial amount of gas flowing with the liquid the heat transfer coefficient will decrease some.

[diablolightning]

How about if the dry ice was in a very thin yet tight bag (net) that could keep the ice in the bag (net) made out of some kinda panty hose ype material and as for the preasure put some kinda valved cap:twitch: I just made it and just got of the phone with the patent so I't my idea:nana2

I'm gonna be a millionaire.:burnout::banana:

[dboat]

I was assuming that you are putting the dry ice in between runs at the track. with the temp of the antifreeze being so high, even a good sized piece would turn to gas in no time. Furthermore, the cap to the reservoir isnt that big that you could get a huge chunk of it in there. However, we could create a tank that would be mounted where the battery is located, with a small pump and you could drop the dry ice in there, pump over the fluid and put a screen on the return line so that any small pieces wouldnt go back to the reservoir..
This ones my idea!!:evil

[SILVER2000SVT]

Heat transfer is based on surface area. Therefore the smaller the pieces you put in there the more surface area and more cooling. Of course they don't last very long like that, but thats what you want, to maximize heat transfer and for the solid co2 to absorb the heat of the coolant. I like the pantyhose idea, but because of the same idea, if you lump a bunch of pieces together inside a mesh type bag you get less heat transfer because you don't have as much exposed surface area. So it will actually work a lot better if you put in pieces small enough to fit through the fill cap. You still run into the same problem with the pump sucking down the co2 as a gas which could potentially be bad. I think you could prevent that by figuring out the precise amount of dry ice between runs to cool the fluid but not putting in extra, then running the pump with manual switch for just a few seconds when the dry ice is about half way gone to transfer the still hot fluid in the lines and heat exchangers to the reservoir for the other half to absorb. This is one idea I had that would minimize any damage to the pump from the co2 gas.

[dboat]

heck, lets get together and design this puppy... we can then test it on YOUR lightning at the track:evil..

OK?

:twitch:Dana

[ken cryder]

jason
Therefore the smaller the pieces you put in there the more surface area and more cooling.

that is true but it also depends on how muck you put in . for example i fill my box up half way with water , and break the dry ice into smaller pieces , it will freeze the hot water in the box that surrounds the cooler in a matter of minutes to a solid block of ice . it normally takes two runs for the ice to completely be melted , and the water hot again.

dana this is where i have run into trouble with codensation . even with a insulated box condensation will some time form on the outside of the box , and create problems if any drips on the track .

a 7 lb bag of ice in the box will only last one trip down the track before it is totally melted , then you must drain the box to put more ice in it . the cost is about the same if you take in account how many bags of regular ice too a few pounds of dry ice .

ken

[dboat]

To tell you how nutty I am, I dreamed about this last night.:eek2:

I thought maybe you could design some sort of holder to put ice in for the intercooler so that the liquid there would be cooled. Then you have another piece that would surround the tank in the engine bay that would also hold ice or some other cooling medium to cool the intercooler tank. Then you could cool most of the antifreeze and get good hard runs down the track or at the dyno.

Ken, I am a little slow and dense at times, but now I understand the condensation issue.

Seriously, if you guys are going to be at dyno day on Sat, lets get together and actually look and see what we can do.

Dana

[SILVER2000SVT]

I think designing a system that uses regular ice would be the best way to go, just because it is cheaper and a lot more readily available. Ice water is a constant 32°F until all the ice is melted. If we can get the coolant to that temperature level minus the normal losses in the system I think that would be more than adequate.

Here’s my idea:
Build an auxiliary cooler box with an open top to fill with ice and water.
Install a coil inside the box for the intercooler coolant to flow through.
This coil should be the same size inside diameter as the existing coolant lines.
I think copper is the best material for this because it’s inexpensive, it’s an excellent conductor of heat, and it can be worked (bent) by hand because it’s pretty soft.

The coil for the new cooler box should be plumbed in-line between the outside heat exchanger outlet and the intercooler inlet.
Putting it here will minimize heat gain from the ambient air because it will go straight into the intercooler after going through the cooler box.

It will also allow the existing outside heat exchanger (bumper) to provide cooling up to the point when the coolant becomes cooler than the ambient air.

At this point there becomes a problem though: Once the coolant reaches the ambient temperature you are going to get a reverse affect and you are going to absorb heat into the system through the outside (bumper) heat exchanger.

The solution: you might want to consider blocking off the outside heat exchanger all together when using the new auxiliary cooler box by covering it with some sort of panel; Better yet, to do it right have a couple of 3-way diverter valves that you can manually switch when you use the cooler box that by-passes the coolant through a hose or tube around the outside heat exchanger.

Condensation problem:
Whenever any part of the system is cooler than the ambient temperature you have the potential for condensation. If the outside surfaces of the components, like the reservoir and lines, are cooler than the ambient temperature that means you are absorbing heat from the air and essentially decreasing the effect or the cooling system. This isn’t a problem with the factory design because the coolant can never get cooler than the outside air.
Solution:
Insulate the lines and tanks to minimize heat gain through the components. This will also solve the condensation problem.

When using the new cooler box fill it up with ice then pour enough water in there to cover the coils. Having liquid in contact with the coils will ensure good heat transfer vs just having solid ice touch them.

Have a tank drain with a valve where you can drain the excess water easily (between passes) and top back off with more ice, but being sure to leave a little bit of water still in there to keep the coil covered once the new supply of ice is poured in.

[dboat]

board with this. where are you going to locate it?

how about some quick disconnects and make it portable to use outside of the truck?

[SILVER2000SVT]

what do you mean by "board with this"?

I assume you are refering to what I just wrote?
If you want to use some disconnects you need to have the kind with valves that close off on both sides when you disconnect them because you will have coolant in the coil in the box and from the rest of the system. you could also have seperate valves on both sides of each disconnect would work too.

[dboat]

I am on board.. meaning I agree.. It does seem to me that you could make a large tank with quick disconnects to hold a lot of ice and water that would rapidly cool down the intercooler fluid..maybe it would only require minimal plumbing install work. hmmm
Dana

[SILVER2000SVT]

cool, I guess I wasn't paying good enought attention, I didn't put the subject in with the rest of the text...

The more I think about this the more I realize that by-passing the bumper exchanger is a real important part of this working well.

[Silver_2000]

Im not sure if JL's powercoolers dont already do this.....

Are we reinventing the wheel ??

[SILVER2000SVT]

We probaby are! Everything I thought of was just basic fluid mechanics and heat transfer. I think almost anybody else given the same problem would have come up with a very similar solution. Where can I find info on JL cooler to compare?

[Silver_2000]

http://www.johnnylightningperf.com (http://www.johnnylightningperf.com/)

[diablolightning]

I was thinking of a drink cooler inside the cab with some tricked out hoses comming out the sides and some qiuck disconec ts on them and them by the kick pannel area some other quick connect hose comming from engine bay to hook up quickly and also be out of sight when not in use.


Oh yea and you could put a big coil or more than 1 coil in a bigger cooler:burnout:

And by it being inside the car you don't have to worry about water on the track:twitch:

[SILVER2000SVT]

you read my mind with the cooler idea, that would be a cheap and dirty version to see if the idea worked. The more coils you have the better the transfer of heat, but you also tend to load down the pump by adding more tubing for it to flow through, so we have to find a happy medium. Have you ever tried to use a yard sprinkler with about 300 ft of hose, it doesn't work too good.

They don't have any information on the JL's supercooler on the website, but it looks really huge. I am also willing to bet that they don't even have a way to bypass the front heat exchanger when you are using it. So that means you would be trying to cool the outside air in addition to the coolant. I wish they told you what all it came with, if anything. Also, they are extremely expensive, we can probably come up with something that works just as well and a lot cheaper. It just won't look as nice.

[L8 APEX]

Bypassing the front cooler is risky business. If your closed loop gets hot or you forget to turn it back after racing your motor will detonate and breath real hot air. Also the circulation pump is mounted 18" off the return line of the heat exchanger so you would have to relocate or plumb so the stock pump would work on you closed loop.

[SILVER2000SVT]

Bypassing the front cooler is risky business.

I agree completely, that definately something you wouldn't want to forget to hook back up. So maybe just blocking it off with some cardboard and tape would be easier to remember to take off. I'm just throwing out ideas here. I haven't crawled under there in while but the pump should be right after the reservoir and before the heat exchanger? Using my idea of a couple of 3-way valves is a simple way to turn them one way to use the stock system then turning them both to by-pass through the new ice cooler.

[diablolightning]

this is such a great idea I think we might have something on our hands It's even kinda exciting. We really need to try this and build a prototype and try it that way we could improve on it. Also about the pump not being able to handle the length of the hose we could add another pump to it maybe on the other side. But thats where i think it would get expensive.

Doesn't the jl system also go to the bed of the truck it seems like a longer way than the cab but I'm not sure. Be cause one of the cell thing is bigger than the other unless it is a coolant resurvoir.

Who wants to donate their truck for the prototype hugh. (Terry or Andrew) W
hat do ya'll think ; )

Also I talked to my ricer friend and he still claims they would pack it in there.
Yet he didn't know there was a pump for the intercooler?? ricers hugh

[ken cryder]

miguel
my truck is already a test truck . i also worried about how far the pump could push the fluid. that's why i mounted mine in the battery position . i use a box 7''highx 8''deepx 11'' long . i put a 89 ranger heater core in it for the heat dispersition . this gives maybe an extra gallon of fluid to circulate .

ken

[L8 APEX]

80% of his concept is carry over of Ken's or JL's existing stuff. What he is trying to fight is absorbing heat and wasting his cold stuuf through the stock heat exchanger. I like the cardboard idea:rolloddly. Where his train de-rails is those 3/5 way valves:eek2: I have seen a run melt a lot of ice. One time I was racing top end 140+ and started getting detonation after 10 miles. I was heating the intercooler fluid up faster than it could cool down. That is where a Fluidyne exchanger would pay for its self. Stan/Ruslow runs one on his 180mph class truck. I agree leaving the stock exchanger piped will waste some cold water/ice but not sure how practical it is to bypass. Must be some serious racing getting done:nana2

[Shiner1]

Here is a thought in regards to the cooler idea. When I had back surgery the hospital sent me home with an electric powered ice pack. All this is, is a coleman ice chest with a small electric pump (plug in the wall outlet) and two hoses that run to a rubber pad which had smaller rubber hoses in it. You fill the chest with water and ice and the pump circulates the cold water to and from the rubber pad maintaning a consistantly cold pad for the injured area. Could this idea be adopted for our use? Obviously a more heavy duty version needs to be built. Mount a cooler some place, run the hoses and tap into the elcetrical system for the pump. More frequent ice changes would be needed for sure, but it might work.

-- john