Retroactive Fines

[Lyfisin]

I don't know if this will affect any of you, but there was an article in the Star Telegram this morning indicating that some people are going to be getting surcharged anywhere from $100.00 to $2500.00 in addition to the fines they've already paid in court in Dallas.

According to the article, about 100,000 people were allowed to renew their licenses because the state is a year behind schedule in setting up the Driver Responsiblity Program. It looks like you would have to have received a lot of citations and been one of the 100,000 for you to be included in this.

Probably just an FYI, but I thought it was an interesting read. You can see the full article at...

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/state/9450336.htm?1c

[my2002lightning]

Wonderful ! :hammer: I hope they don't ding me 2x on this! :mad:

Brook,

Can you copy/paste from the website on here? I'm too lazy to register. :D

Thanks!

[Lyfisin]

Sure. I didn't have to register to get that info, but I see you had to register to click the link. How nice. http://www.talonclub.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Doesn't look like two tickets would get you into trouble even if they were both in Dallas.

Here's the article.

New fine may tick off Texas drivers

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By Gordon Dickson
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Star-Telegram Staff Writer
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About 100,000 Texas drivers with a knack for getting pulled over will soon get bad news in the mail.

Beginning in October, Texans with multiple traffic tickets, a drunken-driving conviction or other offenses in the past 12 months will receive letters from the Texas Department of Public Safety explaining that they owe surcharges of $100 to $2,500. That's in addition to what they may have already paid in court. Those who don't make payment arrangements within 30 days will lose their driver's licenses.

"If you don't pay it, your license is suspended until you can," DPS spokeswoman Tela Mange said.

The state is counting on traffic offenders to cough up $100 million to help pay for statewide road and rail projects, and a similar amount to improve emergency rooms.

The letters are being mailed because the state is a year behind schedule in starting up the Driver Responsibility Program, a driver's license point system created by the Legislature to penalize people who habitually break traffic laws.

As of Sept. 1, 2003, Texans who racked up bad-driving points were supposed to pay the new fines before renewing their licenses.

But, because the DPS didn't have the proper software in place, about 100,000 drivers slipped through the cracks during the past year and were allowed to renew.

Now, the DPS is going after them retroactively.

"Pay me now or pay me later, we're going to get the money," Mange said.

The delay has caused a $100 million shortfall in statewide road and transit funding this year.

Proceeds from the Driver Responsibility Program are supposed to be split between statewide trauma centers and the Texas Mobility Fund.

The trauma centers were to use the money to expand emergency rooms and hire more doctors.

The Texas Mobility Fund was created by voters in 2001 to relieve traffic congestion statewide. The fund allows the state to issue bonds and build roads and rail years ahead of schedule.

The fund was supposed to have a $138 million balance by now but, with only 11 days remaining in the fiscal year, the balance is only $38 million, according to the Texas Department of Transportation.

As a result, future highway and rail plans may have to be scaled back, officials said.

Despite this year's shortfall, transportation officials still hope to issue up to $3 billion in bonds for road and rail projects, and repay the debt with several sources of state funding, including the annual contributions from bad drivers.

"The simple answer is, less money going into the mobility fund means less debt can be issued over time," said James Bass, finance director for the Transportation Department.

State Sen. Florence Shapiro, R-Plano, who wrote legislation that created the mobility fund, said she believes that the fund's balance will catch up by the time the money is needed. Most of the projects slated to receive money are several years away, she said.

Metroplex leaders expect to use their share of the mobility fund on:

• The Cotton Belt commuter rail line from Fort Worth to Dallas/Fort Worth Airport.

• The Texas 114/121 Grapevine funnel.

• Toll-express lanes on Interstate 635 in Dallas.

"The real bulk comes after three years, when we assess how many tickets people have acquired over a three-year period," Shapiro said. "I would be concerned if I thought money wasn't coming."

But state Rep. Joe Pickett, D-El Paso, a member of the House Appropriations Committee, said he believes the delay in implementing the Driver Responsibility Program will cost the state millions.

He noted that the law will expire on Sept. 1, 2007, leaving a narrow window for the state to hit bad drivers in the pocketbook.

"I don't think they can catch up," Pickett said. "Look at all the cities and counties with uncollected fines. Now, you're looking at trying to get in touch with 100,000 people and say 'You owe us.' "

Gov. Rick Perry said the delay in starting the Driver Responsibility Program is a minor, temporary problem. By 2005, he said, Texans will see that it's working.

"Every new program has got to do some spooling up for a period of time," Perry said. "A better time to ask me that is one year from now, when we've got the program up and running."

In September, the DPS will hire a firm to manage the Driver Responsibility Program and mail letters to offenders from the past 12 months, Mange said.

Once the startup is complete, lead-footed scofflaws won't need to wait for a letter from the DPS to learn about their fines, she said. They'll find out when they arrive at the license renewal office.

The Texas Driver Responsibility Program

Drivers convicted of a moving violation on or after Sept. 1, 2003, are placed on a point system and, if enough points accumulate, must pay a surcharge to renew their driver's licenses.

The surcharge is in addition to the usual renewal fee.

Speeding tickets for driving less than 10 percent over the posted limit -- for example, driving 65 mph or less in a 60 mph zone -- don't count as points. Seat-belt violations also don't count. But many other moving violations do count.

Here's how it works:

• A moving violation (speeding, failure to yield, etc.) counts as two points. A violation that results in a crash counts as three points. A violation can occur in any state.

• A driver who accumulates six points must pay a charge of $100 a year, plus $25 for each additional point.

• Points remain on a driver's record for three years. The charge must be paid annually until the point total drops below six.

Other charges in the program:

• Motorists convicted of driving while intoxicated or a related offense on or after Sept. 1, 2003, must pay a charge of $1,000 a year for three years.

• A second DWI conviction within three years raises the penalty to $2,500 a year.

• A driver who fails to maintain vehicle insurance or who drives with a suspended or invalid license must pay $250 a year for three years. Drivers who don't have a license and are caught behind the wheel must pay $100 a year for three years to qualify for a license.

Source: Texas Department of Public Safety

[Tex Arcana]

That "retroactive" :Bullshit won't fly, someone's gonna snag a hihg-powered lawyer, and either get it nullified, or tie it up long enough to negate it by closing its window of opportunity.

And I'm unsure of the constitutionality of this, if the state fails to perform its duty, it's not the citizens' fault for that, so one would think that this would get tossed fairly easily.

[Silver_2000]

That "retroactive" :Bullshit won't fly, someone's gonna snag a hihg-powered lawyer, and either get it nullified, or tie it up long enough to negate it by closing its window of opportunity.

And I'm unsure of the constitutionality of this, if the state fails to perform its duty, it's not the citizens' fault for that, so one would think that this would get tossed fairly easily.
You sure have an interesting view of the law - The law states that you owe a penalty - Just because you werent billed for it DOESNT change the fact that you owe it. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. In theory they could penalize you for NOT paying on time - NOW that penalty would be easy for attorneys to throw out since you were never notified BUT it wouldnt change the fact that you owe the $$$.

Similar to the IRS auditing taxes back 2 or 3 years - Using your logic they would have what till Sept 15th to find you and figure out how much you didnt declare and if they didnt get the audit dine in time you are scott free ? NO they have 4 years or more as I understand it.

I give you points for being consistent

[Tex Arcana]

You sure have an interesting view of the law - The law states that you owe a penalty - Just because you werent billed for it DOESNT change the fact that you owe it. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. In theory they could penalize you for NOT paying on time - NOW that penalty would be easy for attorneys to throw out since you were never notified BUT it wouldnt change the fact that you owe the $$$.

Similar to the IRS auditing taxes back 2 or 3 years - Using your logic they would have what till Sept 15th to find you and figure out how much you didnt declare and if they didnt get the audit dine in time you are scott free ? NO they have 4 years or more as I understand it.

I give you points for being consistent

The points-system :bullshit issue reminds me more of the Tollway lane runners situation of a couple years ago, than it does your examples, becasue the burden of proof fell on the NTTA to prove the persons in question didn't drop the money, and a couplpe court cases later, they had to revamp the system to help them prove it, and if the cameras do NOT catch the lack of coins in the basket, then the runner is off becasue they failed to prove he didn't pay.

And, even tho it was voted in (tho I didn't hear about it 'til AFTER it passed), the state failed to perform their duty in enforcing the law. Therefore, the burden falls on them to enforce theri "fines", and if the state fails to make its case in court during that portion of the case, the defendant is absolved. So, chances are some lawyers are going to have a field day with this, and the whole system will come crashing down around their ears, just like with the NTTA.

[Silver_2000]

The points-system :bullshit issue reminds me more of the Tollway lane runners situation of a couple years ago, than it does your examples, becasue the burden of proof fell on the NTTA to prove the persons in question didn't drop the money, and a couplpe court cases later, they had to revamp the system to help them prove it, and if the cameras do NOT catch the lack of coins in the basket, then the runner is off becasue they failed to prove he didn't pay.

And, even tho it was voted in (tho I didn't hear about it 'til AFTER it passed), the state failed to perform their duty in enforcing the law. Therefore, the burden falls on them to enforce theri "fines", and if the state fails to make its case in court during that portion of the case, the defendant is absolved. So, chances are some lawyers are going to have a field day with this, and the whole system will come crashing down around their ears, just like with the NTTA.
Your analogy is very flawed - When the tollway driver went thru the red light they were guilty - no matter whether they threw the money or not Makes NO difference - its your responsibilty to NOT drive thru a red light - If you do you face the consequences.

In the case of the point system there is NOTHING to prove - When you recieved a ticket or DWI - The law says you owe a $$ Penalty - The fact that the system didnt ask you for it when you got your license renewed doesnt change the fact that you owe it...

Ill try another analogy - Maybe its closer -

You go to Albertsons you buy a big ass Steak and walk out without paying. At what point does Albertsons abilty to collect end ? when you cross the threshold at the door ? When you get in your car ? And is it Albertsons burden to prove you didnt pay or your burden to prove you did ???

[Tex Arcana]

Your analogy is very flawed - When the tollway driver went thru the red light they were guilty - no matter whether they threw the money or not Makes NO difference - its your responsibilty to NOT drive thru a red light - If you do you face the consequences.

In the case of the point system there is NOTHING to prove - When you recieved a ticket or DWI - The law says you owe a $$ Penalty - The fact that the system didnt ask you for it when you got your license renewed doesnt change the fact that you owe it...

Ill try another analogy - Maybe its closer -

You go to Albertsons you buy a big ass Steak and walk out without paying. At what point does Albertsons abilty to collect end ? when you cross the threshold at the door ? When you get in your car ? And is it Albertsons burden to prove you didnt pay or your burden to prove you did ???

Your Albertson's analogy is flawed as well, but that's really besides the point. And, in rereading what I wrote, mine was flawed as well, so let's toss those out, and let me restate the tollway analogy:

Let's say you go thru the change lane, toss your 50cents into the basket, and as you're rolling, the light never changes, and you move on. You paid your toll, yet the machine didn't read it. Allegedly, you're supposed to stop, bu that's dangerous. So you drive on. Later, you get a ticket in the mail for running the toll, but you *knew* you paid it. So, you call an attorney, who reminds the NTTA that the burden of proof of violation is on THEM, and that they have no clear proof of his alleged violation. It's his word against theirs, and it's up to NTTA to prove he didn't do it. ANd they cannot.

This is the exact case that hanged things on the Tollways, and spurred the development of tolltags and better change collectors, because of one successful test case. Now, new tollbaskets have a camera aimed at them, where the coins wind into the collector, so they can verify that the copinc got there, despite errors in the machinery that invariably happen.

So, let's extend this to the present issue: TxDOT has the obligation to prove their allegations. Now, of course, the difference is that the original violations went to court, and were disposed as outlined in the law. If the new points system was not properly implemented, it is not the fault of the accused, becasue he did everything one could reasonably expect to dispose of his violation properly It is therefore the fault of TxDOT for failing to implement what they were supposed to implement. THerefore, their retroactive points systems (or, more specifically, the fines) is at best improperly executed, or at worst unconstitutional.

Example: You got a DWI back in, say, January. Points system and fines were supposed to be in effect, but when you went to court and went before the judge, you and they did everything you and they knew to do, you paid your fine and community service, and the judge disposed of your citation in a proper and timely manner. However, because the courts did not have the guidelines or procedures for the points system available to them (due to failure of TxDOT), then that procedure did not get executed. So, here we are today, and you get a letter saying you owe an additional $1500 to pay for the points fees; however, a judge has ALREADY DISPOSED OF YOUR CASE. Therefore, you are not liable for the failure of TxDOT to implement their own law.

And you know as well as I do that a lawyer is gonna get hold of that failure, he's going to halt the entire point implementation process, and probably challenge the constitutionality of the law, holding it up past the 2007 deadline, meaning it never makes implementation, and they have to start over. ANd the make 121 a tollroad. :p

[Silver_2000]

We agree that the person is guilty of the offense. The fees are designed to be collected when the drivers license is renewed. Because the software wasnt in place in time to catch your license renewal doesnt change your resposibility to pay the fees.

Same with the Toll analogy. When you went thru the red light you were guilty END OF STORY - no matter what sad story you tell the judge about safety - Its a moving violation just like any other red light - Except that in his case EVERY red light has a license plate camera...

Heres another rediculous analogy:
If you rob a bank and the response to the alarm is delayed does that mean you can keep the money ???

Doug

[Tex Arcana]

We agree that the person is guilty of the offense. The fees are designed to be collected when the drivers license is renewed. Because the software wasnt in place in time to catch your license renewal doesnt change your resposibility to pay the fees.

Same with the Toll analogy. When you went thru the red light you were guilty END OF STORY - no matter what sad story you tell the judge about safety - Its a moving violation just like any other red light - Except that in his case EVERY red light has a license plate camera...

Heres another rediculous analogy:
If you rob a bank and the response to the alarm is delayed does that mean you can keep the money ???

Doug

Put DOWN the crackpipe, and step away SLOWLY... :rolleyes:

Legislators have a responsibility to he citizens to make sure they implement the laws properly, and not haphazardly like this stupid law is being done.

Plus, if I pay my toll, drive thru, and they say didn't pay, what then?? Am I guilty? FSCK NO!! ANd it is up to THEM to prove it.

If I go thru a court and dispose of a violation, and the COURT doesn't provide me a way, or the STATE doesn't put in place the procedures to enforce and dispose of that point system, then it is THEiR fault--NOT MINE--that it didn't get done in the first place. My violation was done to the letter of the law as enforced by the court, no amount of "retroactive" finageling by the state will make thier failure right, and no court in the land will uphold it.

[Silver_2000]

Plus, if I pay my toll, drive thru, and they say didn't pay, what then?? Am I guilty? FSCK NO!! ANd it is up to THEM to prove it.

If I go thru a court and dispose of a violation, and the COURT doesn't provide me a way, or the STATE doesn't put in place the procedures to enforce and dispose of that point system, then it is THEiR fault--NOT MINE--that it didn't get done in the first place. My violation was done to the letter of the law as enforced by the court, no amount of "retroactive" finageling by the state will make thier failure right, and no court in the land will uphold it.
Whether you paid the toll or not if you went thru under red you are guilty of running a red light - They can ALWAYS charge you with that.

Im still confused how once they have a picture of you going thru that red light it becomes thier responsibility to prove you didnt pay the toll. They have proof - The PICTURE. When you chose to enter the tollway you agreed to pay the tolls using the existing equipment.

Its kinda pointless to argue about it here - It will no doubt all play out in the news in the next few weeks / months... We'll come back here then.

[Tex Arcana]

Whether you paid the toll or not if you went thru under red you are guilty of running a red light - They can ALWAYS charge you with that.

Im still confused how once they have a picture of you going thru that red light it becomes thier responsibility to prove you didnt pay the toll. They have proof - The PICTURE. When you chose to enter the tollway you agreed to pay the tolls using the existing equipment.

Its kinda pointless to argue about it here - It will no doubt all play out in the news in the next few weeks / months... We'll come back here then.

Yep, completely pointless...:rolleyes:

[Wht95Lightning]

If you go to the bank to get some cash from your account and the banks computers are down, does that mean you don't have any money? Of course not. It's a delay just like any other delay.

Everything doesn't happen instantly but it happens eventually.

[Tex Arcana]

If you go to the bank to get some cash from your account and the banks computers are down, does that mean you don't have any money? Of course not. It's a delay just like any other delay.

Everything doesn't happen instantly but it happens eventually.

Okay, so let's say you go to the store, and buy a pound of hamburger, and pay for it on your credit card; a year later, the store charges your card again, becasue they decided that you paid too little, even tho you paid the marked price. This is very much the same.

In a matter like this, the state (any government, as a matter of fact) has an obligation to do things in a timely manner, especially in a matter of some legal violation (remember our "right to a speedy trial"??). This issue violates that, in that it attempts to retroactively impose a fine on a violation that has already been disposed in a timely and proper fasion by the courts. And, IMHO, that fact alone will negate the whole attempt, and likely invalidate the whole points system, until they can get it right, reintroduce it, and implement it in a timely fashion.

[ghostt]

this is all leading to the point they need the extra money to make more toll roads so they can get more money for the few who dont pay the news talked about one driver who has over $45,000 in fined . im not sure how many times u have to run the gate to rack that up, but still is allowed to drive on the toll way where as i miss the basket and get out to get my 25 cents to make the total get a warning for getting out of my truck.

[Moonshine]

Tex,


I think you're getting your burdens of proof confused on criminal versus civil cases. In a criminal case the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you violated the law. If you get a ticket, the fine is a criminal penalty assessed after the judge or jury finds that the State (prosecution) has met their burden of proof.

In a civil case, the plaintiff (person bringing the suit) has to prove their case (the tort) by a preponderance of the evidence.

Driving and a driver's license are priveledges, not rights. So, if you get too many citations the state assesses a civil fee to maintain your priveledge to drive. If you chose to fight that civil fee you would have to file a suit (civil) and the burden of proof would be on you as the plaintiff.

Clear as mud, right?

[Tex Arcana]

Tex,


I think you're getting your burdens of proof confused on criminal versus civil cases. In a criminal case the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you violated the law. If you get a ticket, the fine is a criminal penalty assessed after the judge or jury finds that the State (prosecution) has met their burden of proof.

In a civil case, the plaintiff (person bringing the suit) has to prove their case (the tort) by a preponderance of the evidence.

Driving and a driver's license are priveledges, not rights. So, if you get too many citations the state assesses a civil fee to maintain your priveledge to drive. If you chose to fight that civil fee you would have to file a suit (civil) and the burden of proof would be on you as the plaintiff.

Clear as mud, right?

Yep, visibility = zero. :(

My real point is that thier incompetence should not cost us, either in fines or punishment. Due process is a right, and a failure of due process should lead to where they lead, not to what they assess after the process is done--and that is exactly what is happening here.

[Silver_2000]

Yep, visibility = zero. :(

My real point is that thier incompetence should not cost us, either in fines or punishment. Due process is a right, and a failure of due process should lead to where they lead, not to what they assess after the process is done--and that is exactly what is happening here.
Okay, so let's say you go to the store, and buy a pound of hamburger, and pay for it on your credit card; a year later, the store charges your card again, becasue they decided that you paid too little, even tho you paid the marked price. This is very much the same.

In a matter like this, the state (any government, as a matter of fact) has an obligation to do things in a timely manner, especially in a matter of some legal violation (remember our "right to a speedy trial"??). This issue violates that, in that it attempts to retroactively impose a fine on a violation that has already been disposed in a timely and proper fasion by the courts. And, IMHO, that fact alone will negate the whole attempt, and likely invalidate the whole points system, until they can get it right, reintroduce it, and implement it in a timely fashion.
Tex

The process has started
Dallas Morning News Article
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/093004dntexfines.9ef0.html

They interviewed an atty who didnt raise any concerns about the legality of the law..


Last year's ticket means this year's fine


08:00 AM CDT on Thursday, September 30, 2004

By CHRISTY HOPPE / The Dallas Morning News

AUSTIN – Last year's traffic tickets are about to set off sirens in mailboxes of nearly 200,000 Texas motorists.

They're about to get notices that they owe the state hefty, newly imposed fines – in some cases thousands of dollars.

Together, the drivers already owe the state $67 million. Those who don't pay up will lose their licenses.

"It's in their best interest for drivers to respond promptly to these letters," said Col. Thomas A. Davis Jr., Department of Public Safety director.

About 5,000 notices a day began going out this week, telling drivers they owe surcharges from $100 for driving without a license to $1,000 for driving while intoxicated. The surcharges are in addition to any fines connected with the infraction.

Drivers have 30 days after receiving the notice to pay, set up a payment schedule or lose their driving privileges.




But some defense lawyers said the new law is likely to place a greater burden on courts as drivers start to contest infractions to avoid a new set of costly penalties. Or they'll get their licenses suspended, but continue to drive.

"I think it's going to be a hardship on people. A lot of these people are not rich," said Ian Inglis, an Austin attorney who has handled driving infractions for more than two decades.

[Tex Arcana]

Tex

The process has started
Dallas Morning News Article
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/093004dntexfines.9ef0.html

They interviewed an atty who didnt raise any concerns about the legality of the law..

Yeah, I realize the process has started. However, I beleive someone is going to challenge it (someone with a boatload of tickets and alot of money, or a class-action suit), and take it to either state supreme court, or federal court, and try to get it overturned, and I feel the have a good chance of doing so.

[03LightningRocks]

this is all leading to the point they need the extra money to make more toll roads so they can get more money for the few who dont pay the news talked about one driver who has over $45,000 in fined . im not sure how many times u have to run the gate to rack that up, but still is allowed to drive on the toll way where as i miss the basket and get out to get my 25 cents to make the total get a warning for getting out of my truck.
Each toll violation is a fine of 25 dollars. Run 3 booths in one trip down the tollway=75 bucks for one days worth of offenses. Don't pay the fine in a timely manner=250 bucks per violation. It can add up quick for a flagrant violator.


Rocks:eek2:

[Tex Arcana]

Each toll violation is a fine of 25 dollars. Run 3 booths in one trip down the tollway=75 bucks for one days worth of offenses. Don't pay the fine in a timely manner=250 bucks per violation. It can add up quick for a flagrant violator.


Rocks:eek2:

thank goodness they use camera backups for the tolltag recievers...

[03LightningRocks]

thank goodness they use camera backups for the tolltag recievers...

Yep..........along with the nice letter, they send a picture of the license plate. I have received about 20 of them in the past 18 months. All where dismissed as mistakes and I only had to mail in the toll.

It is a less than perfect system:cool: . But it works for the majority of the time.

Rocks

[Tex Arcana]

Yep..........along with the nice letter, they send a picture of the license plate. I have received about 20 of them in the past 18 months. All where dismissed as mistakes and I only had to mail in the toll.

It is a less than perfect system:cool: . But it works for the majority of the time.

Rocks

I have a freind who used to be a programmer for the tolltag company, he said the RF recievers were only 35-45% effective. :(

I've never gotten a ticket, nor my wife, and we both have tags. Our older son, however, has gotten a few because he just never thought about it. (shrug)

[Silver_2000]

Ive had a tag for years and have never had an issue - no letters

I have screwed up quite a few times and no issues...

[03LightningRocks]

Ive had a tag for years and have never had an issue - no letters

I have screwed up quite a few times and no issues...

Honestly, most of the issues I have had, where mine or my employees fault. Tags in wrong trucks and such. If the plate doesn't match the tag, they will nail you for that also. I like this though, because if any of the guys try putting my tag in a personel vehicle, they will get caught eventually.

They always seem willing to understand and let it go with just the standard toll payment.


Rocks

[Tex Arcana]

Honestly, most of the issues I have had, where mine or my employees fault. Tags in wrong trucks and such. If the plate doesn't match the tag, they will nail you for that also. I like this though, because if any of the guys try putting my tag in a personel vehicle, they will get caught eventually.

They always seem willing to understand and let it go with just the standard toll payment.


Rocks

Interesting.. I've been trying to get my wife to get a tag for her Mercedes, but she wont, she just pulls the one out of her Mountaineer and uses it, and we haven't been dinged with it yet. (shrug)

[03LightningRocks]

Interesting.. I've been trying to get my wife to get a tag for her Mercedes, but she wont, she just pulls the one out of her Mountaineer and uses it, and we haven't been dinged with it yet. (shrug)

You will eventually.......:cool: . You may have already been caught. I have received letters about screw ups from 6 months before.

[03LightningRocks]

I do have a question on the original topic of this thread. Does taking defensive driving or deferred adjudication, keep the points off my record?

[wesman]

That's what I was wondering. Are these points they speak of ones that actually go on your record or for any infraction you're ticketed for? In the cases of deferred and def driving the adjudication is withheld and it doesn't go on your record.....wonder if those count :confused:

[03LightningRocks]

I am thinking that if you get a ticket dismissed through one of those two routes, it would not be right to still get these points added.

If they are still adding points anyway....I may have problems:eek: .

[99WhiteBeast]

I am thinking that if you get a ticket dismissed through one of those two routes, it would not be right to still get these points added.

If they are still adding points anyway....I may have problems:eek: .
I with you on that Ron- I've had 3 dismissed this year through DJ or DDC.

[wesman]

Yeah...I'm very much fuxored if those count :hammer:

--wes