Presidential Vote

[dboat]

I was just curious to know how the vote would go today if it were up to Talon. I am asking that no one post their thoughts, just their vote because these things get to where people start flaming one another. If you dont want to vote for one of the two major party candidates, tell us who you would vote for, i.e. Nader, etc.
Doug, I would ask you to keep tabs so that we dont let this get out of hand.
Thanks
Dana

[TreeFiddy]

Ah, if only the country were full of Texans.

[Tex Arcana]

Ah, if only the country were full of Texans.

Bush is about as Texan as Osama... :mad:

[blueoval01]

I was just curious to know ............
Thanks
Dana
What is the concensus up in PA, Dana?

[dboat]

What is the concensus up in PA, Dana?

The state itself is a tossup right now, which is a disappointment to the Dems. This state went pretty hard for Gore in the last presidential election. Most feel it did because of the turnout in Philly, which is not expected this time around.
Once you get outside of Philly and Harrisburg (the state capital), the rest of the state is pretty darned conservative. Even the Dem running for Senate against Arlen Specter is claiming how liberal he is, (and he is for the most part). Bush was here, Erie, right after the Republican Convention and filled up a football stadium with folks to see him. He is pretty popular here, even though the local economy is lagging the national economy in bouncing back.
Mark, hope this gives you an idea.
Dana

[my2002lightning]

Dana,

I know this might possibly be outside your original post request, but I'd be interested in hearing why (Cliff's Note's version with no flame wars) TALONers voted the way they have in your poll.

Unsane and I had a gentlemanly AIM discussion this afternoon as to the two candidates merits, so I thought this might add other perspectives to our political leanings.

Just a thought...

Ronald

[Sixpipes]

Dana,

I know this might possibly be outside your original post request, but I'd be interested in hearing why (Cliff's Note's version with no flame wars) TALONers voted the way they have in your poll.

RonaldProbably because we remember Kennedy, Johnson, Carter, Clinton....and we're pretty good at seeing through the bullshit being thrown out there by Hollywood and the liberal media. :cool:

[Silver_2000]

Now to Ban all those that chose the wrong candidate.....:evil

[02BOLT]

Bush is about as Texan as Osama... :mad:
What the hell ever, dude.:rolleyes:

[bobbywade69]

I just flip a coin and see who gets voted for!!! :d

[Tex Arcana]

What the hell ever, dude.:rolleyes:

It's a fact: born in Maine, grew up on the East Coast, the only time his old man comes down here is to spend two weeks in the Warwick Hotel in Houston (right around the corner from my old home down there) just to maintain the illusion of residency. It's a shame that these damned yankee carpetbaggers can come into our state and act Texan when they haven't got a leg to stand on.

[Tex Arcana]

I just flip a coin and see who gets voted for!!! :d

A wonderful use of your citizenship.

[Sixpipes]

It's a fact: born in Maine, grew up on the East Coast, the only time his old man comes down here is to spend two weeks in the Warwick Hotel in Houston (right around the corner from my old home down there) just to maintain the illusion of residency. It's a shame that these damned yankee carpetbaggers can come into our state and act Texan when they haven't got a leg to stand on.

President Bush was born on July 6, 1946, in New Haven, Connecticut, and he grew up in Midland and Houston, Texas. He received a bachelor's degree from Yale University in 1968, then served as an F-102 fighter pilot in the Texas Air National Guard. President Bush received a Master of Business Administration from Harvard Business School in 1975. After graduating, he moved back to Midland and began a career in the energy business. After working on his father's successful 1988 presidential campaign, he assembled the group of partners that purchased the Texas Rangers baseball franchise in 1989. He served as managing general partner of the Texas Rangers until he was elected Governor on November 8, 1994, with 53.5 percent of the vote. He became the first Governor in Texas history to be elected to consecutive four-year terms when he was re-elected on November 3, 1998, with 68.6 percent of the vote.

[Tex Arcana]

President Bush was born on July 6, 1946, in New Haven, Connecticut, and he grew up in Midland and Houston, Texas. He received a bachelor's degree from Yale University in 1968, then served as an F-102 fighter pilot in the Texas Air National Guard. President Bush received a Master of Business Administration from Harvard Business School in 1975. After graduating, he moved back to Midland and began a career in the energy business. After working on his father's successful 1988 presidential campaign, he assembled the group of partners that purchased the Texas Rangers baseball franchise in 1989. He served as managing general partner of the Texas Rangers until he was elected Governor on November 8, 1994, with 53.5 percent of the vote. He became the first Governor in Texas history to be elected to consecutive four-year terms when he was re-elected on November 3, 1998, with 68.6 percent of the vote.




On that, I stand corrected.. but they're still carpetbaggers. :mad:

[Sixpipes]

You're too easy. :cool:

"Few in numbers, never particularly powerful relative to the native white or scalawag element of the Republican party, the carpetbaggers of Texas played a minor role in Texas politics after the Civil War. The traditional idea of carpetbag rule is an unsuitable concept to apply to Texas Reconstruction."

The whole article if you care to brush up on your Texas history.

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/CC/pfc1.html

An additional article that correctly depicts the history of the early Democratic Party of Texas.

http://www.tamu.edu/gaines/february.html

[03LightningRocks]

It looks to me like Bush is the clear winner:d .


Rocks:banana:

[03LightningRocks]

President Bush was born on July 6, 1946, in New Haven, Connecticut, and he grew up in Midland and Houston, Texas. He received a bachelor's degree from Yale University in 1968, then served as an F-102 fighter pilot in the Texas Air National Guard. President Bush received a Master of Business Administration from Harvard Business School in 1975. After graduating, he moved back to Midland and began a career in the energy business. After working on his father's successful 1988 presidential campaign, he assembled the group of partners that purchased the Texas Rangers baseball franchise in 1989. He served as managing general partner of the Texas Rangers until he was elected Governor on November 8, 1994, with 53.5 percent of the vote. He became the first Governor in Texas history to be elected to consecutive four-year terms when he was re-elected on November 3, 1998, with 68.6 percent of the vote.


You're too easy. http://www.talonclub.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif

"Few in numbers, never particularly powerful relative to the native white or scalawag element of the Republican party, the carpetbaggers of Texas played a minor role in Texas politics after the Civil War. The traditional idea of carpetbag rule is an unsuitable concept to apply to Texas Reconstruction."

The whole article if you care to brush up on your Texas history.

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook...ew/CC/pfc1.html (http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/CC/pfc1.html)

An additional article that correctly depicts the history of the early Democratic Party of Texas.

http://www.tamu.edu/gaines/february.html


http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/226owned.gif

[Moonshine]

Probably because we remember Kennedy, Johnson, Carter, Clinton....and we're pretty good at seeing through the bullshit being thrown out there by Hollywood and the liberal media. :cool:
Ditto :beer:

[Shiner1]

President Bush was born on July 6, 1946, in New Haven, Connecticut, and he grew up in Midland and Houston, Texas. He received a bachelor's degree from Yale University in 1968, then served as an F-102 fighter pilot in the Texas Air National Guard. President Bush received a Master of Business Administration from Harvard Business School in 1975. After graduating, he moved back to Midland and began a career in the energy business. After working on his father's successful 1988 presidential campaign, he assembled the group of partners that purchased the Texas Rangers baseball franchise in 1989. He served as managing general partner of the Texas Rangers until he was elected Governor on November 8, 1994, with 53.5 percent of the vote. He became the first Governor in Texas history to be elected to consecutive four-year terms when he was re-elected on November 3, 1998, with 68.6 percent of the vote.


You never want to fock with the "Old School":rll:

[dboat]

Dana,

I know this might possibly be outside your original post request, but I'd be interested in hearing why (Cliff's Note's version with no flame wars) TALONers voted the way they have in your poll.

Unsane and I had a gentlemanly AIM discussion this afternoon as to the two candidates merits, so I thought this might add other perspectives to our political leanings.

Just a thought...

Ronald

Having almost rec'd a minor in Poly Sci when I was in college. (Would have done it but my school didnt award minors :ron: )
I think there are too many variables to mention here about why those on Talon are voting the way that they are. George being of the home team, per se, has a certain leg up on any other candidate in Texas. Some feel that he is responsible for the economic downturn post 9/11 (wont get in to the hows or whys of that one). There are those that dont care for other issues that he stands for or maybe its the fact that he does "stand" for something. Rather than having your political stance be based on surveys, polls, etc (read Clinton here)..
The biggest hurdle that John Kerry faces is trying to communicate what he does stand for rather than what he is against. I think that part has hurt him in his quest for the presidency. Furthermore, the reason Gore did so well was because of clintons coattails and the perception of some minority voters that he would take care of them. I could go on and on..
But my best guess is that most L owners are conservatives at heart and the closest candidate that reflects their views is Bush.
Dana

[dboat]

Please tell us who you would vote for in the election.
Dana

[Sixpipes]

I'm keeping my vote a secret. :cool:

[Shiner1]

Please tell us who you would vote for in the election.
Dana
At the risk of starting an internet brawl, here goes......I know people get tired of those who sit on the fence and won't choose a side but my political beliefs really do lie with both parties. I believe in less government not more, We should have to work to pay our bills not expect handouts from the govt. I think women should have the right to choose. Not the govt. choosing for you. I think Howard Stern should be able to say what he wants and not have the FCC shut him down. If you don't like it, turn it off. If you don't want your kids to listen to it, be a parent and stop them. (I don't let my kids listen to stern) I don't think there should be prayer in school. It's my job to raise my children and teach them religion. Not the school or govt's. Everyone should stand a say the pledge. Why does anybody care weather or not two men or two women want to be married. Everyone has the right to be happy. Doesn't our constitution say that? I think we should be able to own guns. Law abiding citizens aren't running around shooting people. Lets fry those sum-bitches who commit violent crimes. I'm all for opening an expresss lane for the death penalty. Being in the medical field has allowed me to have a huge impact on many, many lives and I have seen the wonderful things that medicine can do. God gave man the brains to find cures for disease. I don't understand why the govt. feels the need to take that away in some instances. We have the best medicine in the world, but it's easier for illeagal's to have access than some Americans. That needs to change. I liked the fact that when President Bush found out who was responsible for 9/11 he went and kicked the sh!t out of them. Lets continue to do that. I don't want to see our troops dying everyday with no appearent progress. I saw M Moore's 9/11 movie and the only part that really stuck with me was when he said "Our troops will give their live if asked, they just want to know it's for a good cause" I agree. I fought and lost friends in Desert Storm. I have no regrets. I was ready to do it again after 9/11. Just make sure it's for a good cause and we have what we need to win. I think the cause gets lost after so many months of conflict and death. Having said all of that....I think Bush is the better man for the job right now....Had it been someone other than Kerry.......who knows.

Let the :throw: begin.

[Silver_2000]

Been avoiding politics as much as possible so far - Have to skip 3/4 of the front section of the Dallas Morning News.

Right Now I'm Watching Sen. Kerry on Letterman. Letternam is spoon feeding him questions and he is avoiding a direct answer to even those. He is working hind site on all of GW's IRAQ decisions. Anyone can pick apart someone based on whats already happened.

David - "Gee If you knew what Bush Knew would you have gone in to Iraq "
Sen Hienz - " I wouldnt have gone in cause we know that there were no WMD's etc etc"
Me "Senator - Wait a second that wasnt the ****ING question.. "

I hate all politicians - Cant get a straight answer from any of them.

[Silver_2000]

Im a conservative - I Think, but .....

It sucks that The ******* politicians let religion determine thier decisions when it comes to health care. What an irony. We'll pray for you but we wont let you use Gene therapy or Stem Cells.
Another thing that sucks is like Shiner said .. The politicians have helped create / allow a medical system that has pricing system that charges the most to the folks who cant pay. And we give better care to illegals than to retirees....

/rant off

[Shiner1]

"Senator Hienz" :rll:

[my2002lightning]

John,

I agree with you 100% and thank you for your service to our country!

Ronald



At the risk of starting an internet brawl, here goes......I know people get tired of those who sit on the fence and won't choose a side but my political beliefs really do lie with both parties. I believe in less government not more, We should have to work to pay our bills not expect handouts from the govt. I think women should have the right to choose. Not the govt. choosing for you. I think Howard Stern should be able to say what he wants and not have the FCC shut him down. If you don't like it, turn it off. If you don't want your kids to listen to it, be a parent and stop them. (I don't let my kids listen to stern) I don't think there should be prayer in school. It's my job to raise my children and teach them religion. Not the school or govt's. Everyone should stand a say the pledge. Why does anybody care weather or not two men or two women want to be married. Everyone has the right to be happy. Doesn't our constitution say that? I think we should be able to own guns. Law abiding citizens aren't running around shooting people. Lets fry those sum-bitches who commit violent crimes. I'm all for opening an expresss lane for the death penalty. Being in the medical field has allowed me to have a huge impact on many, many lives and I have seen the wonderful things that medicine can do. God gave man the brains to find cures for disease. I don't understand why the govt. feels the need to take that away in some instances. We have the best medicine in the world, but it's easier for illeagal's to have access than some Americans. That needs to change. I liked the fact that when President Bush found out who was responsible for 9/11 he went and kicked the sh!t out of them. Lets continue to do that. I don't want to see our troops dying everyday with no appearent progress. I saw M Moore's 9/11 movie and the only part that really stuck with me was when he said "Our troops will give their live if asked, they just want to know it's for a good cause" I agree. I fought and lost friends in Desert Storm. I have no regrets. I was ready to do it again after 9/11. Just make sure it's for a good cause and we have what we need to win. I think the cause gets lost after so many months of conflict and death. Having said all of that....I think Bush is the better man for the job right now....Had it been someone other than Kerry.......who knows.

Let the :throw: begin.

[Moonshine]

At the risk of starting an internet brawl, here goes......I know people get tired of those who sit on the fence and won't choose a side but my political beliefs really do lie with both parties. I believe in less government not more, We should have to work to pay our bills not expect handouts from the govt. I think women should have the right to choose. Not the govt. choosing for you. I think Howard Stern should be able to say what he wants and not have the FCC shut him down. If you don't like it, turn it off. If you don't want your kids to listen to it, be a parent and stop them. (I don't let my kids listen to stern) I don't think there should be prayer in school. It's my job to raise my children and teach them religion. Not the school or govt's. Everyone should stand a say the pledge. Why does anybody care weather or not two men or two women want to be married. Everyone has the right to be happy. Doesn't our constitution say that? I think we should be able to own guns. Law abiding citizens aren't running around shooting people. Lets fry those sum-bitches who commit violent crimes. I'm all for opening an expresss lane for the death penalty. Being in the medical field has allowed me to have a huge impact on many, many lives and I have seen the wonderful things that medicine can do. God gave man the brains to find cures for disease. I don't understand why the govt. feels the need to take that away in some instances. We have the best medicine in the world, but it's easier for illeagal's to have access than some Americans. That needs to change. I liked the fact that when President Bush found out who was responsible for 9/11 he went and kicked the sh!t out of them. Lets continue to do that. I don't want to see our troops dying everyday with no appearent progress. I saw M Moore's 9/11 movie and the only part that really stuck with me was when he said "Our troops will give their live if asked, they just want to know it's for a good cause" I agree. I fought and lost friends in Desert Storm. I have no regrets. I was ready to do it again after 9/11. Just make sure it's for a good cause and we have what we need to win. I think the cause gets lost after so many months of conflict and death. Having said all of that....I think Bush is the better man for the job right now....Had it been someone other than Kerry.......who knows.

Let the :throw: begin.
Agree with almost all of what you've said, with a couple of exceptions;

I wouldn't care about gay marriage except that it would entitle gay spouses to collect Social Security survivor benefits, and I'm not particularly interested in subsidizing their lifestyle choice.

The US Constitution does not guarantee the right to be happy, but rather the freedom to pursue happiness. Achieving happiness is an individual responsibility, not a government guarantee.

Otherwise, right on. :tu:

[TreeFiddy]

Ah, if only the country were full of Texans.
I meant the voters, not the candidates.

[Sixpipes]

Agree with almost all of what you've said, with a couple of exceptions;

I wouldn't care about gay marriage except that it would entitle gay spouses to collect Social Security survivor benefits, and I'm not particularly interested in subsidizing their lifestyle choice.

The US Constitution does not guarantee the right to be happy, but rather the freedom to pursue happiness. Achieving happiness is an individual responsibility, not a government guarantee.

Otherwise, right on. :tu:
Ever thought about running for office? :evil

[Moonshine]

Ever thought about running for office? :evil
NOT!!!!!!

1. I don't smile unless I have a reason to.
2. I do not kiss strange babies.
3. I don't coddle lazy rejects who should have been weeded out through natural selection.
4. I am not inclined to tell folks something just to make them happy.
5. I am a strict constitutionalist - Powers not specifically granted to the federal govt. remain state powers. Period.
6. Doug would have to hate me.

I could go on, but you get the idea. :twitch:

[Sixpipes]

Are you sure? You and your running mate might could wear a special uniform. :cool:

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/8kerry_ambiguouslygay.jpg

[blueoval01]

Are you sure? You and your running mate might could wear a special uniform. :cool:

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/8kerry_ambiguouslygay.jpg :eek::eek::eek: Is that you Brian?
:rll: J/K ........
Actually, Aggie Mom would look good in one of those .... :D
:evil

[Shiner1]

Are you sure? You and your running mate might could wear a special uniform. :cool:

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/8kerry_ambiguouslygay.jpg
LMFAO :rll: and one of these:D

[dboat]

This has become a pretty entertaining thread.. :beer:

[Ivanhoe_Farms]

What Sixpipes Said!!!

[Tex Arcana]

Things you have to believe to be a Republican today:

Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad
guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy
when Cheney did business with him and a bad guy when
Bush needed a "we can't find Bin Laden" diversion.

Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is
communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to
a spirit of international harmony.

The United States should get out of the United Nations,
and our highest national priority is enforcing U. N.
resolutions against Iraq.

A woman can't be trusted with decisions about her own
body, but multi-national corporations can make decisions
affecting all mankind without regulation.

Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and
Hillary Clinton.

The best way to improve military morale is to praise the
troops in speeches while slashing veterans' benefits and
combat pay.

If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won't
have sex.

A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our long-time
allies, then demand their cooperation and money.

Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy.
Providing health care to all Americans is socialism.

HMOs and insurance companies have the best
interests of the public at heart.

Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are
junk science, but creationism should be taught in
schools.

A president lying about an extramarital affair is a
impeachable offense. A president lying to enlist
support for a war in which thousands die is solid
defense policy.

Government should limit itself to the power named
in the Constitution, which include censoring the
Internet.

The public has a right to know about Hillary's cattle
trades, but George Bush's driving record and National Guard attendance is none of our business.

Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime,
unless you're a conservative radio host. Then it's
an illness, and you need our prayers for your recovery.

Attorney General John Ashcroft can tell states what local
voter initiatives they have the right to adopt.

What Bill Clinton did in the 1960s is of vital national
interest, but what Bush did in the '80s is irrelevant.


Feel free to pass this on. If you don't send it to at
least 10 other people, we're likely to be stuck with
Bush for 4 more years. Friends don't let friends vote
Republican

[Silver_2000]

Things you have to believe to be a Republican today:

Saddam .... snip blah blah blah Sounds just like Kerry on Letterman. Makes no sense and is using sound bites and cliche's to win votes.

Rather than a canned version from the Net heres my version of the opposing view.

What you have to beleive to be a democrat.

that government is too small
that government is the only one that knows how to spend your money
that making more laws is better than enforcing the ones we have
that the only people that should own guns are criminals
that the everything in the world is black and white
that people are not responsible for thier own actions
that giving people more handouts will help the economy

Ok I ran out of time - have to go get ready for lfest

Here is web response to your list




Drug addiction is a disease that should be treated with compassion and understanding...unless the addict is a Conservative talk show host.
The United States should be subservient to the United Nations. Our highest authority is not God and the U.S. Constitution, but a collective of tinpot dictators (and their appeasers) and the U.N. charter.
Government should relax drug laws regardless of the potential for abuse, but should pass new and unConstitutional anti-gun laws because of the potential for abuse.
Calls for increased security after a terrorist attack are "political opportunism," but calls for more gun control after a criminal's spree killing is "a logical solution."
"It Takes a Village" means everything you want it to mean...except creeping socialist government involvement in the nuclear family.
Disarming innocent, law-abiding citizens helps protect them from evil, lawless terrorists and other thugs.
Slowly killing an unborn innocent by tearing it apart limb from limb is good. Slowly killing an innocent disabled woman by starving her to death is good. Quickly killing terrorists, convicted murderers and rapists is BAD.
Every religion should be respected and promoted in public schools the name of diversity, so long as that religion isn't Christianity.
The best way to support our troops is to criticize their every move. This will let them know they're thought of often.
Sexual harassment, groping and drug use are degenerate if you're the governor of California, but it's okay if you're the President of the United States.
Sex education should be required so that teens can make informed choices about sex, but gun education should be banned because it will turn those same teens into maniacal mass-murderers.
Minorities are blameless for the hatred of the racist; women are blameless for the hatred of the rapist; but America is entirely at fault for the hatred of Islamofascists.
Poverty is the cause of all terrorism...which is why the leaders of al Qaeda are typically U.S.-educated and were raised in wealth and luxury.
The Patriot Act is a horrific compromise of Constitutional rights, but anti-Second Amendment laws and Franklin Roosevelt's Presidential Order 9066 must be regarded "reasonable precautions."
We should unquestioningly honor the wishes of our age-old allies, even when said allies no longer act like our allies and have vested economic interests in propping up our enemies.
Socialized medicine is the ideal. Nevermind all those people who spend every dime they have to get to the United States so they can get quality medical care...that their nation's socialized medical community can't provide.
Michael Moore, Noam Chomsky and Natalie Maines are perfectly qualified to criticize our leadership, but Arnold Schwarzenegger, Charlton Heston, and Dennis Miller are just ignorant political hacks.
John Lott's research on how gun ownership reduces crime is junk science, but Michael Bellesiles is still an authority on why gun control is good (even though he was forced to resign from Emory due to research misconduct over his book "Arming America").
Bush's toppling the Saddam regime was a "diversion," but Clinton's lobbing a couple of cruise missiles at Iraq in the thick of the Lewinsky sex scandal was "sending a message."
A president who lies under oath is okay, but a president who references sixteen words from an allies' intelligence report should be dragged through the streets naked.
Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution, which include banning Second Amendment rights and shopping the courts for judges sympathetic to causes that wouldn't pass in any legislature.
"The People" in the First Amendment means The People; "the People" in the Fourth Amendment means The People; "the People" in the Ninth Amendment means The People; "the People" in the Tenth Amendment means The People; but "the People" in the Second Amendment (ratified in 1791) means the National Guard (created by an Act of Congress in 1903).
You support a woman's "right to choose" to kill her unborn child, but don't believe that same woman is competent enough to homeschool the children she bears.
Proven draft-dodging is irrelevant, but baseless claims of AWOL status is crucial to national security.
Threatening to boycott Dr. Laura's and Rush Limbaugh's advertisers is exercising Freedom of Speech, but threatening to boycott CBS's "The Reagans" and Liberal actors over their asinine anti-American remarks is censorship and McCarthyist blacklisting.
http://www.treachery.net/~jdyson/how_about_it_moron.jpg

[Silver_2000]

NOT!!!!!!

1. I don't smile unless I have a reason to.
2. I do not kiss strange babies.
3. I don't coddle lazy rejects who should have been weeded out through natural selection.
4. I am not inclined to tell folks something just to make them happy.
5. I am a strict constitutionalist - Powers not specifically granted to the federal govt. remain state powers. Period.
6. Doug would have to hate me.

I could go on, but you get the idea. :twitch:
Hate you ?

I would be your campaign manager ....

Brian for President....

[02BOLT]

Dude, go spread your little mamby pamby BULLSH!T beliefs elswhere! We're not buying it here, if you haven't noticed by now. If you'd spend as much time looking for a damn job, as you do posting up this HORSESH!T, then you may have found one by now.

I usually sit back and keep my mouth shut, and am not one to openly flame anyone, but enough is phucking enough!

The last democrat that was in office had(and still has) the moral integrity of a male prostitute. He embarassed the HELL out of this nation on several levels. The least of which having something to do with shoving a cigar where the sun doesn't shine while in the OVAL OFFICE!

I realize this is a public forum, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, which you certainly are, but if you're gonna post up offensive remarks, such as comparing our president(Republican or Democrat) to a PHUCKING TERRORIST etc...etc..then expect to piss people off.

I know this isn't going to shut your yap up, but at least I feel better now.:D

Come on Cletus...COME ON!

[Moonshine]

I hate all politicians
And now you want to be my campaign manager?????? :rolleyes:

[Sixpipes]

So this guy is fit to be Commander & Chief of the Armed Forces? :cool:

John Kerry's picture (http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/graphics/A03.jpg) hangs in the museum celebrating the Viet Cong's victory over America in Ho Chi Minh City aka Saigon. The communists in Vietnam consider him and Jane Fonda (http://jane-fonda.blogspot.com/) to be heros.

http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/images/newsoldier.jpg

PLEASE NOTE: The picture above is the ORIGINAL cover of John Kerry's book THE NEW SOLDIER. John Kerry's friends, the so called Vietnam Veterans Against the War were mocking this scene (http://www.iwojima.com/) photographed during the Second World War. 6,825 American boys (http://www.iwojima.com/battle/battled.htm) died in the battle to take Iwo Jima before they planted that flag. Notice the flag in the picture is upside down.

[Silver_2000]

And now you want to be my campaign manager?????? :rolleyes:
Id make an exception ....

[Alpine]

Dude, go spread your little mamby pamby BULLSH!T beliefs elswhere! We're not buying it here, if you haven't noticed by now. If you'd spend as much time looking for a damn job, as you do posting up this HORSESH!T, then you may have found one by now.

I usually sit back and keep my mouth shut, and am not one to openly flame anyone, but enough is phucking enough!

The last democrat that was in office had(and still has) the moral integrity of a male prostitute. He embarassed the HELL out of this nation on several levels. The least of which having something to do with shoving a cigar where the sun doesn't shine while in the OVAL OFFICE!

I realize this is a public forum, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, which you certainly are, but if you're gonna post up offensive remarks, such as comparing our president(Republican or Democrat) to a PHUCKING TERRORIST etc...etc..then expect to piss people off.

I know this isn't going to shut your yap up, but at least I feel better now.:D

Come on Cletus...COME ON!Tex,it sounds like you need to get some a$$ dude and chill out bro. Spreading my political beliefs over and over again on Talon is not my idea of fun. Rob, could not have said it better myself. Sometimes people need a nice swift kickin in the nuts! :eek2:



http://anyfun.net/pics/pics/oth4.jpg

[Alpine]

So this guy is fit to be Commander & Chief of the Armed Forces? :cool:

John Kerry's picture (http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/graphics/A03.jpg) hangs in the museum celebrating the Viet Cong's victory over America in Ho Chi Minh City aka Saigon. The communists in Vietnam consider him and Jane Fonda (http://jane-fonda.blogspot.com/) to be heros.

http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/images/newsoldier.jpg

PLEASE NOTE: The picture above is the ORIGINAL cover of John Kerry's book THE NEW SOLDIER. John Kerry's friends, the so called Vietnam Veterans Against the War were mocking this scene (http://www.iwojima.com/) photographed during the Second World War. 6,825 American boys (http://www.iwojima.com/battle/battled.htm) died in the battle to take Iwo Jima before they planted that flag. Notice the flag in the picture is upside down.:bows Dennis, your a great American.

[Shiner1]

Dude, go spread your little mamby pamby BULLSH!T beliefs elswhere! We're not buying it here, if you haven't noticed by now. If you'd spend as much time looking for a damn job, as you do posting up this HORSESH!T, then you may have found one by now.
I usually sit back and keep my mouth shut, and am not one to openly flame anyone, but enough is phucking enough!

The last democrat that was in office had(and still has) the moral integrity of a male prostitute. He embarassed the HELL out of this nation on several levels. The least of which having something to do with shoving a cigar where the sun doesn't shine while in the OVAL OFFICE!

I realize this is a public forum, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, which you certainly are, but if you're gonna post up offensive remarks, such as comparing our president(Republican or Democrat) to a PHUCKING TERRORIST etc...etc..then expect to piss people off.

I know this isn't going to shut your yap up, but at least I feel better now.:D

Come on Cletus...COME ON!:eek: :rll: :tu: I love these little smiley guys.

[Crawford]

Its my opinion that politics and religion should be kept out of TALON. :Bullshit

[REXRENEGADE]

"Its my opinion that politics and religion should be kept out of TALON"
AMEN BROTHER !
:evil

[Shiner1]

Makes for good conversation....:rll:

[Sixpipes]

:bows Dennis, your a great American.Jeff,

Thanks for the support, but I can't be a great American because I have never served in the military. More specifically, I have never "volunteered" to serve in the military. It appears that you must "volunteer" to serve, be called in to active duty, and serve in an armed conflict before you really count. Then that allows you to look down your considerably long nose at the "B" team that joined the National Guard and served their country on US soil. I didn't even make the "B" team because I chose to go to school directly from high school and got my college degree by using a deferment offered to full-time college students back in 1969.

However, my father served in three armed conflicts and both my older brothers completed their military obligation while staying stateside. I guess that puts my dad on the varsity, my brothers on the "B" team, and me on the chearleading squad.

What is really amazing to me is the big deal the media is making out of George Bush's National Guard record (unsubtantiated I might add) while John Kerry's military record and his documented anti-military statements while still enlisted in the Naval Reserves in 1971 are a matter of record.

These excerpts are from the following website.

http://johnkerrythenewsoldier.blogspot.com/

John Kennedy’s book, Profiles in Courage, and Dwight Eisenhower’s Crusade in Europe inspired generations. Not so John Kerry, who has suppressed his book The New Soldier, prohibiting its reprinting. Why has John Kerry sought for so long to suppress his own book, The New Soldier? If Kerry were not concerned that his antiwar activism could be a political hindrance, if he did not feel he had crossed the line from responsible protesting to radical activism, then he would have no objection to allowing publishers the rights to reprint his book.

John Kerry’s supporters have purchased copies of the book wherever they appear so the book will vanish from circulation. First edition copies typically cost over $1,000 each on Amazon.com and very few are available for sale. On eBay.com, copies of the book have sold for $500 and signed first editions have gone for as high as $1,500. Kerry supporters have gone to extreme lengths to distance him from the book, arguing that it just has his name on it and that he did not actually write it. Yet the book was a collaborative effort between John Kerry and his two good friends of over forty years, David Thorne and George Butler, and Kerry’s initials document that he took responsibility for writing the epilogue.

http://nomayo.mu.nu/archives/New%20Soldier%20Epilogue.pdf

Now according to some Jeff, that is the profile of a "Great American".

I'm done.........................http://www.nloc.net/forum/images/smilies/USA%20Wave%20Flag.gif

[03LightningRocks]

Dude, go spread your little mamby pamby BULLSH!T beliefs elswhere! We're not buying it here, if you haven't noticed by now. If you'd spend as much time looking for a damn job, as you do posting up this HORSESH!T, then you may have found one by now.

I usually sit back and keep my mouth shut, and am not one to openly flame anyone, but enough is phucking enough!

The last democrat that was in office had(and still has) the moral integrity of a male prostitute. He embarassed the HELL out of this nation on several levels. The least of which having something to do with shoving a cigar where the sun doesn't shine while in the OVAL OFFICE!

I realize this is a public forum, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, which you certainly are, but if you're gonna post up offensive remarks, such as comparing our president(Republican or Democrat) to a PHUCKING TERRORIST etc...etc..then expect to piss people off.

I know this isn't going to shut your yap up, but at least I feel better now.:D

Come on Cletus...COME ON!
Well Tex..........I do believe Rob speaks for me also. Contrary to what your poor me attitude may have you believe, it's not the governments responsibility to support you...or provide you with a job. For you to be foolish enough to think that Kerry,(what a fricking joke...even your hero Michael Moore says Kerry sux and is lame), will provide you with instant livelyhood, comes close to being delusional.

Maybe you should consider relocating to Iran, since you feel such a kinship with terrorists.

Well....never mind...they wouldn't like you. They don't like weak kneed sissy's either.


Rocks;)

[Shiner1]

This is waht I mean....great conversation.

[my2002lightning]

Any other Dem./Other political views besides Tex's?

Where are the rest of you? :rolleyes: Care to elaborate on your voting behavior? :cool:


http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/kerry_boywonder.jpg

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/kerry_ketchup_lies.jpg

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/kerry_empty_promises.jpg

[03LightningRocks]

I am afraid to post my views Ronald. Everyone here already thinks I am crazy:D .

[my2002lightning]

Well,

That's a moot point, but tell us how you REALLY feel.:D

Crazy is in the eye of the beholder....or something.




I am afraid to post my views Ronald. Everyone here already thinks I am crazy:D .

[Tex Arcana]

Sounds just like Kerry on Letterman. Makes no sense and is using sound bites and cliche's to win votes.

Rather than a canned version from the Net heres my version of the opposing view.

What you have to beleive to be a democrat.

that government is too small
that government is the only one that knows how to spend your money
that making more laws is better than enforcing the ones we have
that the only people that should own guns are criminals
that the everything in the world is black and white
that people are not responsible for thier own actions
that giving people more handouts will help the economy

Ok I ran out of time - have to go get ready for lfest

Here is web response to your list
Straight off the Rush Limbaugh "Let's hate EVERYONE who's not white and Republican" website. Thanks, pal, you just showed your true colors, and they certainly are NOT Red, White, and Blue.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/texarcana/SMiles/shutthefup.jpg

[Tex Arcana]

Dude, go spread your little mamby pamby BULLSH!T beliefs elswhere! We're not buying it here, if you haven't noticed by now. If you'd spend as much time looking for a damn job, as you do posting up this HORSESH!T, then you may have found one by now.

I usually sit back and keep my mouth shut, and am not one to openly flame anyone, but enough is phucking enough!

The last democrat that was in office had(and still has) the moral integrity of a male prostitute. He embarassed the HELL out of this nation on several levels. The least of which having something to do with shoving a cigar where the sun doesn't shine while in the OVAL OFFICE!

I realize this is a public forum, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, which you certainly are, but if you're gonna post up offensive remarks, such as comparing our president(Republican or Democrat) to a PHUCKING TERRORIST etc...etc..then expect to piss people off.

I know this isn't going to shut your yap up, but at least I feel better now.:D

Come on Cletus...COME ON!

If you haven't noticed yourself, some of the very same bullshit you spew I find offensive, but I have yet to tell you to shut up. But, then agian, you're just yet another one of those "dittoheads" who hasn't the brainpoer to come up with a single tought of his own that wasn't handed to him by Rush Limberger. I don't like it, but I do'nt tell you to shut up, either. I read and respond. That's all. You do'nt like it, put me on ignore, or get the almighty Doug to ban me forever. Hell, that might be doing me a favor.

You mention the previous democrat that had the "morals of a male prostitute", what about that fine Republican that was at the top of a heap of conspiracy and crime, to the point where he damn near got impeached? Yes, that would be Nixon, bastion of morality. :rolleyes: Another example?? Another Rep example: Warren G. Harding, who bedded a nice passel pf women during his presidency.

Okay, let's pick on a Dem again: Kennedy. That guy was doing 16-yos in bewteen the prostitutes and Marilyn Monroe. Wonderful.

My whole point is that absolute, blind belief in ANYTHING is stupid, dangerous, and completely unpatriotic AND unAmerican. In this country, one is SUPPOSED to questions EVERYONE and EVERYTHING, and make the idiots in charge and in power explain themselves.

But, you're just one of the Republican sheep, decrying anyone who questions anything and anyone, because you don't have the guts to do it yourself. And that makes YOU the sad man. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/texarcana/SMiles/khana****tard.gif

[blueoval01]

With all the talk about red states and blue states in this year's election coverage, it's hard to remember which is which. Red states tend to vote Republican (ie Texas) and blue states tend to vote Democrat (ie California). Here's somewhat humorous but accurate rundown of what life is like in each (http://www.inc.com/magazine/20041001/ahanft.html).

In blue state meetings everyone seems to curse, while in red state meetings people say "friggin'." Blue state businesspeople are profligate smudgers of the work-life boundary, while in my experience red staters are much more protective of their family time. Blue staters tend to be provocative -- they pride themselves on shaking up a meeting by saying something outrageous, while red staters are more respectful of hierarchy and tradition.

Just to clarify, I usually write "Freakin", but actually mean "Friggin". :D
Don't want anyone confused on the issues! :rll:

[TreeFiddy]

I've lived in the South all my life and I've never heard of a business closing down on the first day of "hunting season". I wonder if the author means wabbit season or duck theathon.

[Moonshine]

I've lived in the South all my life and I've never heard of a business closing down on the first day of "hunting season". I wonder if the author means wabbit season or duck theathon.
Very common in the deep south, and primarily done on the first day of deer season. In rural areas, it's also an "unofficial" school holiday.

[TreeFiddy]

Very interesting. New wrinkle in my brain. :banana:

[Ivanhoe_Farms]

I have tried to stay out of this conversation, but failed.

It is amazing to me how otherwise rational human beings become irrational when it comes to politics and religion.

The average American really knows very little about either candidates position, track record, and personal character. We may know more about George Bush than we do about John Kerry, but have we really taken notice?

We tend to blast the other side with rhetoric without really know what we are talking about, and we do not want to take the time to really study the issues --- God fobid that we should be informed.

It is very easy to critize, but very difficult to be constructive. It is very easy to say what someone else should do, or what we would do if we were in their place, but until we have walked a mile in those shoes, we really don't know.

I really don't know what a "Republican" or a "Democrat" is other than a partY affiliation

I really do not know what a "concervative" or a "liberal" is because they can sometimes sound exactly the same on issues.

There has been a lot of "anger" exchanged in some of these posts, but not much more than political rhetoric

The most interesting thing is how fervently we can believe an image which can be totally wrong, and how we defend something we have no specific knowledge about.

There is an elderly statesman from our district -- Ralph Hall -- who has been a Representative in the House for three or four terms as a Democrat, and he switched to the Republican party this year and is running for re-election. People in this area who have been his big supporters are now really bad mouthing him. Has his ability to lead changed based upon his party affiliation?
Has his ability to represent his constituents changed?

He has always voted his conscience as a Democrat, why wouldn't he do that as a Republican.

I think the bottom line is, if we do not invest of our own time to understand the issues, who the candidates are, and understand why we believe what we believe, it is PROBABLY BETTER TO REMAIN PART OF THE SILENT MAJORITY.:throw:

[my2002lightning]

I have cousins that lived in Yampa (just south of Steamboat Springs, CO) for years and they said it was an "unofficial" high-school holiday(s) during elk/mule-deer season.

Everyone except the DEMOCRATIC :D tree-hugging granolas are all into the hunting/shooting sports, evidently.



Very common in the deep south, and primarily done on the first day of deer season. In rural areas, it's also an "unofficial" school holiday.

[Tex Arcana]

I have tried to stay out of this conversation, but failed.

It is amazing to me how otherwise rational human beings become irrational when it comes to politics and religion.

The average American really knows very little about either candidates position, track record, and personal character. We may know more about George Bush than we do about John Kerry, but have we really taken notice?

We tend to blast the other side with rhetoric without really know what we are talking about, and we do not want to take the time to really study the issues --- God fobid that we should be informed.

It is very easy to critize, but very difficult to be constructive. It is very easy to say what someone else should do, or what we would do if we were in their place, but until we have walked a mile in those shoes, we really don't know.

I really don't know what a "Republican" or a "Democrat" is other than a partY affiliation

I really do not know what a "concervative" or a "liberal" is because they can sometimes sound exactly the same on issues.

There has been a lot of "anger" exchanged in some of these posts, but not much more than political rhetoric

The most interesting thing is how fervently we can believe an image which can be totally wrong, and how we defend something we have no specific knowledge about.

There is an elderly statesman from our district -- Ralph Hall -- who has been a Representative in the House for three or four terms as a Democrat, and he switched to the Republican party this year and is running for re-election. People in this area who have been his big supporters are now really bad mouthing him. Has his ability to lead changed based upon his party affiliation?
Has his ability to represent his constituents changed?

He has always voted his conscience as a Democrat, why wouldn't he do that as a Republican.

I think the bottom line is, if we do not invest of our own time to understand the issues, who the candidates are, and understand why we believe what we believe, it is PROBABLY BETTER TO REMAIN PART OF THE SILENT MAJORITY.:throw:

Well said; and I'm one of the ones who shot his mouth off in anger of the issues and stances, so I'm as guilty as anyone, I suppose.

But being silent is the wrong thing to do, if only becasue by staying silent, those who count on you to remain silent will continue to do things as if they know what you want, instead of making an effort to learn your wishes and act on them, no matter their personal feelings.

I get passionate about these things because I believe the greatest asset anywhere is PEOPLE. "Things" mean nothing when a person is involved: one cannot place a price on a person's life. And, no matter the "value" of a company, corporation,organization, or government, it is NOTHING compared to the value of the PEOPLE in the organization, et al. And I've seen the same thing, the same mistake made, over and over: get rid of people to save money. Shows a nice short-term profit; but in the long-term, it devalues the company. Then again, no one ever said that coprorate "leaders" weren't much more than "monkey see, monkey do" types. :rolleyes:

And when politicians don't do what WE THE PEOPLE want them to do, I get even madder.:flaming: The the other arguments start up: smaller government, more government; fewer services, more services; fewer taxes, even fewer taxes; ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Thing is, everyone seems to forget there is a NEED for a government, otherwise there would be no civilization, just chaos. And it needs to be balanced, but with an emphasis on protecting and serving THE PEOPLE, because it is a government "of the People, by the People, and for the People."

They've been lying to us for decades now. They teach us that there are three branches of the government. But that is wrong, there are four: the Judicial, the Legislative, the Executive... and THE PEOPLE. The first three have checks and balances built in (despite the efforts of present politicians to erode or eliminate them); as does the fourth, the People, in their votes--and, when those fail, in their guns (ever see a politician do anything BUT what his constituents wanted when facing an armed mob??).

And it is up to US to make sure it remains so. By remaining silent, by blindly following the leaders, we do nothing but contribute to the problems, excesses, and crimes committed by those in our government. And I, for one, will NOT stand idly by while these excesses are perpetrated. And no one will silence my voice.

[blueoval01]

....... I often wonder about the USA as a Democracy when I read the Pledge of Allegiance.
*I Pledge Allegiance ...... I Promise to be faithful and true (Promise my loyalty)

*to the flag ......... to the emblem that stands for and represents

*of the United States .......... all 50 states, each of them individual, and individually represented on the flag

*of America .......... yet formed into a UNION of one Nation.

*and to the Republic ............ And I also pledge my loyalty to the Government that is itself a Republic, a form of government where the PEOPLE are sovereign,

*for which it stands, ........... this government also being represented by the Flag to which I promise loyalty.

*one Nation under God, ......... These 50 individual states are united as a single Republic under the Divine providence of God, "our most powerful resource" (according to the words of President Eisenhower)

*Indivisible, .......... and can not be separated. (This part of the original version of the pledge was written just 50 years after the beginning of the Civil War and demonstrates the unity sought in the years after that divisive period in our history)

*with Liberty ......... The people of this Nation being afforded the freedom to pursue "life, liberty, and happiness",

*and Justice ......... And each person entitled to be treated justly, fairly, and according to proper law and principle,

*for All. ...... And these principles afforded to EVERY AMERICAN, regardless of race, religion, color, creed, or any other criteria. Just as the flag represents 50 individual states that can not be divided or separated, this Nation represents millions of people who can not be separated or divided.

Have we not strayed from our original form of government?

[dboat]

Mark,
One of the biggest misconceptions is that we are a democracy. We arent, we are a republic..
Dana

Now, whether we are a pure form of a republic is a whole other matter. :cool:

[02BOLT]

Tex,
I would have replied to your post sooner, but I just got back from L-Fest.

At any rate, I replied to your post in reference to "what republicans believe" sharply, and immediately out of anger. I had every intention of offending you, because you had offended me. What I neglected to realize (nor did I care at the time), was that it would simply spark an immature, never ending, name calling and insulting thread between the two of us, that has no place here.

So, you believe what you believe, and I'll believe what I believe, and we can agree to disagree.

Later,
Rob

[Silver_2000]

almighty Doug
At least we agree on one thing :rll: :rll: :rll:

[dboat]

when I first started this thread that I did ask everyone to post their vote and not their thoughts as it might lead to a flaming war, which I didnt really want to have occur. Having said all that, this has become a 5 page thread, at this point, and has had over 1000 views.
Not sure what all that means, but it has been interesting to read it over the past few days. The one thing I love about this country, is that we have the right to espouse our opinions, whether others agree with them or not. Imagine if you were living in Iraq or Afghanistan? You would just now be getting a chance to vote in your first democratic election. Sobering isnt it?
Dana


I was just curious to know how the vote would go today if it were up to Talon. I am asking that no one post their thoughts, just their vote because these things get to where people start flaming one another. If you dont want to vote for one of the two major party candidates, tell us who you would vote for, i.e. Nader, etc.
Doug, I would ask you to keep tabs so that we dont let this get out of hand.
Thanks
Dana

[TreeFiddy]

when I first started this thread that I did ask everyone to post their vote and not their thoughts as it might lead to a flaming war, which I didnt really want to have occur. Having said all that, this has become a 5 page thread, at this point, and has had over 1000 views.
Not sure what all that means, but it has been interesting to read it over the past few days. The one thing I love about this country, is that we have the right to espouse our opinions, whether others agree with them or not. Imagine if you were living in Iraq or Afghanistan? You would just now be getting a chance to vote in your first democratic election. Sobering isnt it?
Dana
Leave it to a lib not to understand or follow the rules.

[Tex Arcana]

Leave it to a lib not to understand or follow the rules.

If it weren't for "libs" and everyone else in this nation, it would be just another form of Soviet Russia; I'd be in a gulag, and you would be getting beaten for illegal personal use of a computer.

So, which would *you* prefer?

[Tex Arcana]

Mark,
One of the biggest misconceptions is that we are a democracy. We arent, we are a republic..
Dana

Now, whether we are a pure form of a republic is a whole other matter. :cool:

Actually, we are considered a "representative democracy". The name given originally was "federal republic", but that isn't exactly descriptive as well, especially when one takes into account that the older definitions of "republic" were similar to "aristocracy". And the *REAL* bottom line is that is a government OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE, which renders the semantics moot.

[Shiner1]

when I first started this thread that I did ask everyone to post their vote and not their thoughts as it might lead to a flaming war, which I didnt really want to have occur. Having said all that, this has become a 5 page thread, at this point, and has had over 1000 views.
Not sure what all that means, but it has been interesting to read it over the past few days. The one thing I love about this country, is that we have the right to espouse our opinions, whether others agree with them or not. Imagine if you were living in Iraq or Afghanistan? You would just now be getting a chance to vote in your first democratic election. Sobering isnt it?
Dana
Dana,
I'm glad people did post their thoughts. It started a brisk, heated debate, which I think is a good thing. As long as the place dosen't erupt in fist-a-cuffs it's all good. :tu:

[Sixpipes]

I'd be in a gulag, and you would be getting beaten for illegal personal use of a computer.

So, which would *you* prefer?OK. That's a tough one. Let me see................I'm going to go with.......... you in a gulag. :evil

[blueoval01]

......... this has become a 5 page thread, at this point, and has had over 1000 views. Hey, your just a popular kind-a-guy.:D


....... The one thing I love about this country, is that we have the right to espouse our opinions, whether others agree with them or not.
Dana Yep believe me, we ARE an opinionated group here. :rolleyes:

Ya did good Dana. Seems most everyone has put their 2 cents in. :tu:
And that was expected.

[sonicbluetommy]

I get passionate about these things because I believe the greatest asset anywhere is PEOPLE. "Things" mean nothing when a person is involved: one cannot place a price on a person's life.


Just trying to lighten things up a little but I think the insurance company's value a person's life at $2.3 million in an airline crash. :D

[anglerx007]

[QUOTE=Shiner1]Dana,
I'm glad people did post their thoughts. It started a brisk, heated debate, which I think is a good thing. As long as the place dosen't erupt in fist-a-cuffs it's all good. :tu:[/QUOT

Politics can be a very amusing spectator sport :) Too bad our "MCSVT" friend did'nt chime in on this thread.

I can't wait to read the gay marriage thread. :vomit:

[TreeFiddy]

Actually, we are considered a "representative democracy". The name given originally was "federal republic", but that isn't exactly descriptive as well, especially when one takes into account that the older definitions of "republic" were similar to "aristocracy". And the *REAL* bottom line is that is a government OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE, which renders the semantics moot.

I'm forced to agree. The statement that the US is not a democracy needs a little rethinking. Until the electoral college votes their conscience instead of following the will of the people, the democracy definition fits.

Republic: A state or nation in which the supreme power rests in all the citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives elected, directly or indirectly, by them and responsible to them.

Democracy: the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group. Literally, the term means power of the people (combining the Greek words demos, meaning "the people," and kratien, meaning "to rule"). It is usually used to describe a political system where the legitimacy of exercising power stems from the consent of the people.

[Tex Arcana]

Just trying to lighten things up a little but I think the insurance company's value a person's life at $2.3 million in an airline crash. :D

Don't forget our beloved Ford placing the cost of a human life at $11.90... :rolleyes:

[Ivanhoe_Farms]

I actually agree with Tex Arcana, that we should not be silent, but that means that we should become eduated on what the issues are and where the candidates side on those issues. We seem to have difficulty with the becoming educated part:vomit:

[Tex Arcana]

I actually agree with Tex Arcana, that we should not be silent, but that means that we should become eduated on what the issues are and where the candidates side on those issues. We seem to have difficulty with the becoming educated part:vomit:

I have to agree with you on that; one cannot trust just one source of information, ever, including the American media, which is showing itself to be as biased as anyone or anything. My financial manager refuses to use American news as her primary source of information, because of that bias; she has to collect most of her information from overseas sources, which are not influenced by either corporate interests or government interests. And I tend to agree with her; so I try to find as many sources as I can, filter thru them, and make my own decisions.

[TreeFiddy]

After saying things like "Bush is about as Texan as Osama" and posting up a "forward this to ten people" email as your political manifesto, I think this is more accurate...


so I try to find as many sources as I can, filter thru them, and then repeat what all the other liberals say without actually researching it or thinking for myself.

[Tex Arcana]

After saying things like "Bush is about as Texan as Osama" and posting up a "forward this to ten people" email as your political manifesto, I think this is more accurate...

I never posted any "forward to ten people" crap... hell, I delete that stuff in my email, mostly because people don't konw what "Bcc." actually means.

You can call me "liberal" if you want.. but you better keep your panties unbunched when I call you "fascist".

Semantics be damned, and you be damned, I'm more moderate in my little finger than you can ever hope to be. And, I do'nt jump on Rush Limburgers' bandwagon every time he pounds his drug-addicted meaty hand on the table. And I *certainly* do'nt accept everything the "Republican" propaganda machince feeds me as fact, at least I've got the intelligence to never believe anything blindly.

Got blinders?? http://www.creationsbycc.com/Designs/horse.gif

[TreeFiddy]

I never posted any "forward to ten people" crap... hell, I delete that stuff in my email, mostly because people don't konw what "Bcc." actually means.
Quote from your "Things you have to believe" post in this thread:

Feel free to pass this on. If you don't send it to at least 10 other people, we're likely to be stuck with Bush for 4 more years. Friends don't let friends vote Republican

This is good example of what liberals do. You don't even read stuff before you repeat it.


You can call me "liberal" if you want.. but you better keep your panties unbunched when I call you "fascist". Semantics be damned, and you be damned, I'm more moderate in my little finger than you can ever hope to be.
The war cry of the liberal: Deny you are a liberal followed by hurling insults at your accusor. Yeah, I'm conservative, and I don't deny it. I haven't called you any names, and I know I'm not a fascist so I'm not insulted by your calling me such. Why should you be ashamed of being a liberal? You obviously aren't ashamed of repeating their stupid mantras without thought or question, which is a dead giveaway. I actually believe you are smarter than that, you just have yet to see the light.


And, I do'nt jump on Rush Limburgers' bandwagon every time he pounds his drug-addicted meaty hand on the table.
Right out of the liberal playbook, you insult Rush Limbaugh by making fun of his name, making fun of his personal problems, and calling him fat, without adding anything substantive to the conversation. But I don't need someone on the radio to tell me how to think, so again the attempted insult doesn't bother me. Good way to distract from the fact that you have nothing to say, although it isn't very original.


And I *certainly* do'nt accept everything the "Republican" propaganda machince feeds me as fact, at least I've got the intelligence to never believe anything blindly.
Except that you blindly believe that Bush is a "carpetbagger" (the exact word the liberals in Houston called his father in 1966 when he ran for Congress). The closest thing you've come to an original thought in this thread is "Bush is as Texan as Osama" (with a little "mad" face).

In fact, the only thing that you've added to this thread is insults, repetition of liberal rhetoric, cutesy sayings like "got blinders" or "friends don't let friends vote Republican", promoting yourself as an independent thinker while all the while providing evidence to the contrary, and a large dose of comic relief.

[99WhiteBeast]

I guess I'm just one of the silent majority- I prefer to make my decision at the polling booth.

Politics and religion are best kept out of a public forum as these things are taken to personal and make grown men act childish.

[my2002lightning]

Steve,

I'd tend to agree. Politics and religion are some "hot-button" issues which can certainly get out of hand.

Back in the first-page of this thread, where I suggested TALON post-up the "why" behind their vote, I'd hoped it wouldn't have denegrated into this.

Unsane and I had a gentlemanly discussion recently on this and "agreed to disagree" and left it at that.

I was hoping this thread would have turned out the same. :cool:

Ronald




I guess I'm just one of the silent majority- I prefer to make my decision at the polling booth.

Politics and religion are best kept out of a public forum as these things are taken to personal and make grown men act childish.

[tliss]

OK, all of this presidential crap is making my head spin. I have decided to write in my vote this year. I'm voting for this guy...

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/26Dennis_for_President1.jpg

Sixpipes for President

Tom

[Mark #2]

Did any of you know politicians in High School or College?
What did you think of them at that time?

I had a roommate in college that was the "president" of the young repubicans, I couldn't trust a single word that came out of his mouth. I'm not sure that there is a candidate worth voting for in 2004, but I just won't vote for someone I don't believe at all.

[Tex Arcana]

OK, all of this presidential crap is making my head spin. I have decided to write in my vote this year. I'm voting for this guy...

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/26Dennis_for_President1.jpg

Sixpipes for President

Tom

As long as he's honest, forthright, and trustworthy...

Aw, hell, what'm I saying??? There's NO SUCH THING as a politician like that!! :evil:

Watch it, Tommy... I should be moving to your neck of the woods, soon.. :tongue:

[tliss]

As long as he's honest, forthright, and trustworthy...

Aw, hell, what'm I saying??? There's NO SUCH THING as a politician like that!! :evil:

Watch it, Tommy... I should be moving to your neck of the woods, soon.. :tongue:
Uh oh...there goes the neighborhood!

On subject we have no politicians that are honest and trustworthy...perhaps it's time the American system takes politicians out of politics...

The whole system needs a serious overhaul, that is for sure.

Tom

[Tex Arcana]

Did any of you know politicians in High School or College?
What did you think of them at that time?

I had a roommate in college that was the "president" of the young repubicans, I couldn't trust a single word that came out of his mouth. I'm not sure that there is a candidate worth voting for in 2004, but I just won't vote for someone I don't believe at all.

"How can ya tell a politician is lying?? HIS LIPS MOVE!!"

Says it all.. personally, I think ALL Americans should be issued a weapon on gaining voting age, so they can shoot their "representative" when he doesn't do what he's told.. or at least threaten him into submission. :mad:

I mean, hell, all Texans get a gun on birth.. and immigrants to Texas are issued a gun at the border... so why NOT everyone else?? :d

[Tex Arcana]

Uh oh...there goes the neighborhood!

On subject we have no politicians that are honest and trustworthy...perhaps it's time the American system takes politicians out of politics...

The whole system needs a serious overhaul, that is for sure.

Tom

I doubt seriously we'll even be in the same neighborhood... the town's big enough for the both of us, since I'm there NOW and you ain't imploded yet. :tongue:

As for the political system: I'm with you. It's so bad that any vote is for sale, and the needs of the people are completely ignored.

[03LightningRocks]

Steve,


Back in the first-page of this thread, where I suggested TALON post-up the "why" behind their vote, I'd hoped it wouldn't have denegrated into this.



I was hoping this thread would have turned out the same. :cool:

Ronald
Yeah, Right Ronald....:Bullshit . I believe that about as much as I believe Kerry has some sort of "plan", that doesn't involve raising taxes and giving more money to people on Welfare.



Rocks:rolleyes:

[03LightningRocks]

..........

As for the political system: I'm with you. It's so bad that any vote is for sale, and the needs of the people are completely ignored.


I think your mother dropped you on your head when you where a baby:cool: .

[cpeapea]

meh. its all just opinions, and we all know what opinions are like:D


maybe we should just chill out and have a :beer: we are screwed no matter who wins:evil jk

i hope we dont end up hating each other after this thread

[my2002lightning]

Well, sort of - the guy that sat 2 seats to the right of me in Civil Procedure during first-year at OU Law School later graduated and took over the OK Supreme Court IT/computer back-end infrastructure.

I remember he was always on his laptop, quiet and kinda' had that "PeeWee Herman - Ron Jeremy" thing going on.

A few years later, I was browsing The Daily Oklahoman and happened across an article about a former OU Law grad. at the OK. Supreme Crt. house busted for hosting/etc. a p0rn site on their servers/etc. along with his buddies. I saw the perp's pic and thought :eek: . I recognize this dude from way-back!

I think they also busted him for "giving away" laptops/etc. to his buddies as he was the IT top-dog or whatever.

I've googled on the story to dig it up, but it's mysteriously disappeared. :cool:

As a footnote, it's also fairly common practice for nefarious law-students to dash RIGHT out of class to the law library to the cases ALL the rest of the class would need to research and cut the pages out of the case-books in order to "gain an edge". :flaming: :hammer:

Glad I got out when I did. :cool:

Ronald

PS: Dru, you reading this?



Did any of you know politicians in High School or College?
What did you think of them at that time?

I had a roommate in college that was the "president" of the young repubicans, I couldn't trust a single word that came out of his mouth. I'm not sure that there is a candidate worth voting for in 2004, but I just won't vote for someone I don't believe at all.

[Tex Arcana]

Yeah, Right Ronald....:Bullshit . I believe that about as much as I believe Kerry has some sort of "plan", that doesn't involve raising taxes and giving more money to people on Welfare.



Rocks:rolleyes:

Actually, if you look at history, government spending usually stimulates an economy. A healthy economy is one in which money flows, along with goods; stop that flow, the economy collapses, and you get a recession or, in worst case, a depression--which is exactly what happened in 1929-1939, or the Great Depression. Some of the recovery after that was mismanaged by the Fed, but that was all washed out by World War II, and the economic boom that followed, which was--guess what??--fueled by government spending (the result of the massive spending to build for the war).

Government is necessary. And someone has to pay for it, and since it is a government "Of the People, By the People, and For the People", then the PEOPLE must help pay for it.

And you might want to lay off welfare spending: a large majority of it goes to people who need it most: women and children, who by some sick twist of fate are unable to support themselves otherwise. A percentage of those on welfare are deadbeats, yes; and another percentage are using it improperly or illegally; but that's not the fault of those who need it the most. Are you going to throw those people on the street, because you think they're all crooks? If so, then be resdy for the "tent cities" of the Depression, and be ready to see them in your back yard.

The only way for the economy to recover, is to start flowing money. The more people sit on it, the less it can do, and the more people that will be affected by it. We are in, at best, a recession right now; and the recovery will hold off until after the election, simply because that holding pattern has been manufactured by the present administration to give the illusion of economic recovery.

[Tex Arcana]

I think your mother dropped you on your head when you where a baby:cool: .

No, actually, I ran into a clothesline pole at a full-out run, head-first, when I was 7. :tongue:


And, if you can't see that your "representatives" don't really represent you, then I have some choice oceanfront property to sell you in Death Valley... :rolleyes:

[Tex Arcana]

meh. its all just opinions, and we all know what opinions are like:D


maybe we should just chill out and have a :beer: we are screwed no matter who wins:evil jk

i hope we dont end up hating each other after this thread

We are only screwed if we LET them screw us.

[Tex Arcana]

Well, sort of - the guy that sat 2 seats to the right of me in Civil Procedure during first-year at OU Law School later graduated and took over the OK Supreme Court IT/computer back-end infrastructure.

I remember he was always on his laptop, quiet and kinda' had that "PeeWee Herman - Ron Jeremy" thing going on.

A few years later, I was browsing The Daily Oklahoman and happened across an article about a former OU Law grad. at the OK. Supreme Crt. house busted for hosting/etc. a p0rn site on their servers/etc. along with his buddies. I saw the perp's pic and thought :eek: . I recognize this dude from way-back!

I think they also busted him for "giving away" laptops/etc. to his buddies as he was the IT top-dog or whatever.

I've googled on the story to dig it up, but it's mysteriously disappeared. :cool:

As a footnote, it's also fairly common practice for nefarious law-students to dash RIGHT out of class to the law library to the cases ALL the rest of the class would need to research and cut the pages out of the case-books in order to "gain an edge". :flaming: :hammer:

Glad I got out when I did. :cool:

Ronald

PS: Dru, you reading this?

Yanno, those are examples of exactly what I am so pissed about with humanity in general: this nation "claims" to be a "nation of Christians", but those self-proclaimed and self-same people are the very ones who would do exactly that, and are doing simliar things--breaking laws, screwing people (literally and figuratively), and generally getting away with murder, all the while purporting themselves to be "good people" and law-abiding citizens.

And it is THAT hyprocrisy that will destroy this nation, if not this world. Nothing else.

I think it's time for the roaches to take over.

[blueoval01]

USA Today's Walter Shapiro points out that Kerry's promise into the camera at last week's debate ( “I am not going to raise taxes.”) will handcuff any Kerry administration (http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20041011/a_hype11.art.htm). It begs the question of which promise Kerry will break if he becomes President:


new spending programs on health care, homeland security, and education?
cut the deficit in half in five years?
not raising taxes?
I think most practical folks understand that you can't do all three. You might not even be able to do two of them. It's awfully hard to explain how rescinding $87 billion in taxes to small business owners & individuals making over $200,000 is going to pay for $2.2 trillion in new spending and cut the deficit in half.

Kerry's got two choices - pare everything back (waffle) or break his pledge a al GWB 41 (waffle). But - and you gotta commend him for this - he's not about to say which ones he'll honor and which he won't. Why hasn't he voiced his choice? Because no one's asked him.

[03LightningRocks]

The fact of the matter is Mark, the democrats never really expected Kerry to win anyway. He is their sacrifice to the Hillary Clinton agenda. Most of them are more amazed by how close some of the polls are than the public is.

The guy is a complete fool. His Socialist Liberal agenda glares through his lies about what he is for and against. He is the classic rich boy that feels guilty about his wealth, so he strives to make it right by giving away other peoples money to the sorry sacks of crap that don't go out and get a job.


Rocks

LOL....on a different topic...Just for sh!ts and grins, I put Mr. Arcana on ignore. My page count on this thread dropped by two full pages. I can't wait to see the affect on some of the other threads he posts on....Go get a job Tex...you have way to much time on your hands.

[TreeFiddy]

Actually, if you look at history, government spending usually stimulates an economy. A healthy economy is one in which money flows, along with goods; stop that flow, the economy collapses, and you get a recession or, in worst case, a depression--which is exactly what happened in 1929-1939, or the Great Depression. Some of the recovery after that was mismanaged by the Fed, but that was all washed out by World War II, and the economic boom that followed, which was--guess what??--fueled by government spending (the result of the massive spending to build for the war).

Government is necessary. And someone has to pay for it, and since it is a government "Of the People, By the People, and For the People", then the PEOPLE must help pay for it.

*snip* welfare, maybe we'll tackle that later

The only way for the economy to recover, is to start flowing money. The more people sit on it, the less it can do, and the more people that will be affected by it. We are in, at best, a recession right now; and the recovery will hold off until after the election, simply because that holding pattern has been manufactured by the present administration to give the illusion of economic recovery.

You are contradicting yourself. You say that the New Deal didn't get the US out of the depression, World War II did (which is correct) so a decade of massive government programs didn't actually cure the economy (there was actually a second depression in 1937 that was a result of FDR's policies).

You are also misquoting Keynesian economics as though it's the model FDR used. In fact, the opposite is true. Keynes wrote his first book in 1936, operating in hindsight by that time.

Also, you got another part exactly backwards: For now let's just focus on the US, and agree that the stock market crash was the first major blow of the Great Depression. There was a run on cash by the banks which was caused directly by the policies of The Federal Reserve; at the time a new government agency responsible specifically for preventing depressions and bank panics. Their new policies and mismanagement paved the way for the crash. People were buying stock on margin accounts, meaning they could use the value of their stock as collateral to buy new stock, but when the price of stock dropped, the brokers made margin calls, the stockholders didn't have the cash to pay for them, there was a run on cash and a bank panic, severe deflation and the collapse of the banking system by 1932. None of this was helped by the fact that many of the funds invested in by the banks were shaky at best or outright frauds.

The country that successfully spent its way out of recession by government spending during that time was Germany, and they had to invade Poland, Austria and France for the raw materials to sustain it. Not a particularly good economic model, although it indirectly got the US out of the depression. Not sure it's worth the price of 50 million dead, though.

Before you quote the the economic model of more government spending, remember that it came about at a time in our history where the federal spending was about 3% of GDP. We were at 30% at the end of WWII and are at 20% now.

Your current president is deficit spending. You don't like him, even though he's doing what you think is the right thing, if you also believe we are in a recession. He's stimulating the economy with tax relief too, but since you don't agree with that, do you read the version of the economic indicators that most suits your view?

One more thing: if people believe the president has the power to create a holding pattern why wouldn't he have the power to just fix everything by snapping his fingers? The recession that got Clinton elected ended before he took office. Do you give him credit for the recovery? If so, exactly how did he engineer the dot-com boom?

[TreeFiddy]

USA Today's Walter Shapiro points out that Kerry's promise into the camera at last week's debate ( “I am not going to raise taxes.”) will handcuff any Kerry administration (http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20041011/a_hype11.art.htm). It begs the question of which promise Kerry will break if he becomes President:


new spending programs on health care, homeland security, and education?
cut the deficit in half in five years?
not raising taxes?
I think most practical folks understand that you can't do all three. You might not even be able to do two of them. It's awfully hard to explain how rescinding $87 billion in taxes to small business owners & individuals making over $200,000 is going to pay for $2.2 trillion in new spending and cut the deficit in half.

Kerry's got two choices - pare everything back (waffle) or break his pledge a al GWB 41 (waffle). But - and you gotta commend him for this - he's not about to say which ones he'll honor and which he won't. Why hasn't he voiced his choice? Because no one's asked him.

You could actually do all three if you reformed the tax system. Many people don't understand the concept of lowering taxes and increasing revenue, but it works. A small piece of a large pie is equal to a large piece of a small one. Since the GDP is fluid this is very possible. The question becomes, do you really believe Kerry will do it that way or do you think he's a liar who will say anything to be president?


The fact of the matter is Mark, the democrats never really expected Kerry to win anyway. He is their sacrifice to the Hillary Clinton agenda. Most of them are more amazed by how close some of the polls are than the public is.
What are they going to do if Kerry wins anyway? I've wondered if it's not a good thing but I'm not sure who scares me more as president.

[Silver_2000]

You are contradicting yourself. You say that the New Deal didn't get the US out of the depression, World War II did (which is correct) so a decade of massive government programs didn't actually cure the economy (there was actually a second depression in 1937 that was a result of FDR's policies).

You are also misquoting Keynesian economics as though it's the model FDR used. In fact, the opposite is true. Keynes wrote his first book in 1936, operating in hindsight by that time.

Also, you got another part exactly backwards: For now let's just focus on the US, and agree that the stock market crash was the first major blow of the Great Depression. There was a run on cash by the banks which was caused directly by the policies of The Federal Reserve; at the time a new government agency responsible specifically for preventing depressions and bank panics. Their new policies and mismanagement paved the way for the crash. People were buying stock on margin accounts, meaning they could use the value of their stock as collateral to buy new stock, but when the price of stock dropped, the brokers made margin calls, the stockholders didn't have the cash to pay for them, there was a run on cash and a bank panic, severe deflation and the collapse of the banking system by 1932. None of this was helped by the fact that many of the funds invested in by the banks were shaky at best or outright frauds.

The country that successfully spent its way out of recession by government spending during that time was Germany, and they had to invade Poland, Austria and France for the raw materials to sustain it. Not a particularly good economic model, although it indirectly got the US out of the depression. Not sure it's worth the price of 50 million dead, though.

Before you quote the the economic model of more government spending, remember that it came about at a time in our history where the federal spending was about 3% of GDP. We were at 30% at the end of WWII and are at 20% now.

Your current president is deficit spending. You don't like him, even though he's doing what you think is the right thing, if you also believe we are in a recession. He's stimulating the economy with tax relief too, but since you don't agree with that, do you read the version of the economic indicators that most suits your view?

One more thing: if people believe the president has the power to create a holding pattern why wouldn't he have the power to just fix everything by snapping his fingers? The recession that got Clinton elected ended before he took office. Do you give him credit for the recovery? If so, exactly how did he engineer the dot-com boom?
Oh **** it sounds like someone knows what they are talking about..... This could be bad... :evil

[Tex Arcana]

The fact of the matter is Mark, the democrats never really expected Kerry to win anyway. He is their sacrifice to the Hillary Clinton agenda. Most of them are more amazed by how close some of the polls are than the public is.

The guy is a complete fool. His Socialist Liberal agenda glares through his lies about what he is for and against. He is the classic rich boy that feels guilty about his wealth, so he strives to make it right by giving away other peoples money to the sorry sacks of crap that don't go out and get a job.


Rocks

LOL....on a different topic...Just for sh!ts and grins, I put Mr. Arcana on ignore. My page count on this thread dropped by two full pages. I can't wait to see the affect on some of the other threads he posts on....Go get a job Tex...you have way to much time on your hands.

"Socialist Liberal"??? :rll: Sonny, you really need to find a dictionary and bone up on your vocabulary... :nono:

And, Rocks, you can stick your head in the sand all you want; all that will get you is sand in your cl*t, and just make you that much more annoying. I'm tired of all this BS anyway, so count on me to pretty much to be gone in short order; I have better things to do than put a burr in your rather ample saddle. :vomit:

[Tex Arcana]

You are contradicting yourself. You say that the New Deal didn't get the US out of the depression, World War II did (which is correct) so a decade of massive government programs didn't actually cure the economy (there was actually a second depression in 1937 that was a result of FDR's policies).

You are also misquoting Keynesian economics as though it's the model FDR used. In fact, the opposite is true. Keynes wrote his first book in 1936, operating in hindsight by that time.

Also, you got another part exactly backwards: For now let's just focus on the US, and agree that the stock market crash was the first major blow of the Great Depression. There was a run on cash by the banks which was caused directly by the policies of The Federal Reserve; at the time a new government agency responsible specifically for preventing depressions and bank panics. Their new policies and mismanagement paved the way for the crash. People were buying stock on margin accounts, meaning they could use the value of their stock as collateral to buy new stock, but when the price of stock dropped, the brokers made margin calls, the stockholders didn't have the cash to pay for them, there was a run on cash and a bank panic, severe deflation and the collapse of the banking system by 1932. None of this was helped by the fact that many of the funds invested in by the banks were shaky at best or outright frauds.

The country that successfully spent its way out of recession by government spending during that time was Germany, and they had to invade Poland, Austria and France for the raw materials to sustain it. Not a particularly good economic model, although it indirectly got the US out of the depression. Not sure it's worth the price of 50 million dead, though.

Before you quote the the economic model of more government spending, remember that it came about at a time in our history where the federal spending was about 3% of GDP. We were at 30% at the end of WWII and are at 20% now.

You are correct, tho I didn't try to misquote any theories: I'm stating simply that money has to flow to fuel growth. An increase in government spending spurs the cashflow of lots of service and supply companies, and spurs the creation of more. It doens't have to be massive spending, just enough to stimulate things. War is NEVER a solution to ANYTHING, except as an absolute last resort, especially for the price of human lives.

You are correct as for the reasons for the main crash; but, in the 10-years surrounding that crash, there were cycles of recession that, if taken as a whole, could be called an economic depression. I was looking at a timeline on that, and noted (interestingly enough) that there was a 3-year cycle in that period: buildup to a peak, followed by a year-long contraction, followed by another buildup. And, it almost seems that there's a larger cycle: a series of smaller swings, then a large one that scares the crap out of everyone (fueled in part by a LOT of misconception/media hype/panic), then a recovery.



Your current president is deficit spending. You don't like him, even though he's doing what you think is the right thing, if you also believe we are in a recession. He's stimulating the economy with tax relief too, but since you don't agree with that, do you read the version of the economic indicators that most suits your view?

Where is that spending going?? To Iraq; to his big business and wealthy cronies (in the guise of "tax refunds" and otehr perks); and that's about it. Schools are losing funding left and right, jobs are contracting still, and layoffs are still occuring, along with those jobs going overseas or to Mexico. That so-called "tax relief" is not really seen by anyone at the bottom of the food chain, the ones who are carrying the tax burden to begin with, only the wealthy and big business are seeing those "reliefs", as far as I can tell.


One more thing: if people believe the president has the power to create a holding pattern why wouldn't he have the power to just fix everything by snapping his fingers? The recession that got Clinton elected ended before he took office. Do you give him credit for the recovery? If so, exactly how did he engineer the dot-com boom?

That "holding pattern" is just smoke and mirrors: make 'em think yer doing the job, when behind the scenes, the wheels are falling off. The FEd is trying to hold things together, without trying to be obvious, at least thru November; the "job recovery" is based on the numbers of people who are actively on unemployment compensation; the rest have fallen off the lists, when their UC ended, and those numbers are not being considered at all--otherwise, the unemployment numbers would be drastically different. The administration released a chunk of the oil reserves into the fuel pipelines, ostensibly to help drop the oil prices (conveniently, right before the election); but this backfired, because the price of oil just spiked (!!!$75 per bbl!!!! :eek2:). So, the evidence of "fiddling" is there, and most of it is being done behind the scenes.

AS for the previous recovery: I originally *did* give Clinton credit for it; and, in truth, his policies and Alan Greenspan's presence at the Fed were partially responsible for a portion of the recovery. However, one has to take into account "economic inertia", meaning that it takes time for things to happen, and the actions of one will take a significant amount of time to show up.

As for this present administration: I just think they flat screwed up, and are too beholden to too many special interests to do their jobs in a fair and balanced (or even honest) manner. 9-11 didn't help; but, I think we were headed for a fall to begin with, and the scandals of Enron, et al, and thier connections to presidential policy would have had as detrimental an effect on the economy.

[03LightningRocks]

You could actually do all three if you reformed the tax system. Many people don't understand the concept of lowering taxes and increasing revenue, but it works. A small piece of a large pie is equal to a large piece of a small one. Since the GDP is fluid this is very possible. The question becomes, do you really believe Kerry will do it that way or do you think he's a liar who will say anything to be president?


What are they going to do if Kerry wins anyway? I've wondered if it's not a good thing but I'm not sure who scares me more as president.

To your first statement/question, I believe Kerry will say anything to be president.

On your second question.....I think they would all get in a room somewhere and say, "Aw Sh!t...now what the heck are we going to do". But I really don't believe it will happen...short of some major screw-up by Bush.


Rocks

[03LightningRocks]

You are contradicting yourself. You say that the New Deal didn't get the US out of the depression, World War II did (which is correct) so a decade of massive government programs didn't actually cure the economy (there was actually a second depression in 1937 that was a result of FDR's policies).

You are also misquoting Keynesian economics as though it's the model FDR used. In fact, the opposite is true. Keynes wrote his first book in 1936, operating in hindsight by that time.

Also, you got another part exactly backwards: For now let's just focus on the US, and agree that the stock market crash was the first major blow of the Great Depression. There was a run on cash by the banks which was caused directly by the policies of The Federal Reserve; at the time a new government agency responsible specifically for preventing depressions and bank panics. Their new policies and mismanagement paved the way for the crash. People were buying stock on margin accounts, meaning they could use the value of their stock as collateral to buy new stock, but when the price of stock dropped, the brokers made margin calls, the stockholders didn't have the cash to pay for them, there was a run on cash and a bank panic, severe deflation and the collapse of the banking system by 1932. None of this was helped by the fact that many of the funds invested in by the banks were shaky at best or outright frauds.

The country that successfully spent its way out of recession by government spending during that time was Germany, and they had to invade Poland, Austria and France for the raw materials to sustain it. Not a particularly good economic model, although it indirectly got the US out of the depression. Not sure it's worth the price of 50 million dead, though.

Before you quote the the economic model of more government spending, remember that it came about at a time in our history where the federal spending was about 3% of GDP. We were at 30% at the end of WWII and are at 20% now.

Your current president is deficit spending. You don't like him, even though he's doing what you think is the right thing, if you also believe we are in a recession. He's stimulating the economy with tax relief too, but since you don't agree with that, do you read the version of the economic indicators that most suits your view?

One more thing: if people believe the president has the power to create a holding pattern why wouldn't he have the power to just fix everything by snapping his fingers? The recession that got Clinton elected ended before he took office. Do you give him credit for the recovery? If so, exactly how did he engineer the dot-com boom?




Wow........your pretty good:eek: . I need that b!tch-slap picture.

[Tex Arcana]

To your first statement/question, I believe ALL POLITICIANS will say anything to be president.


fixed

[TreeFiddy]

Where is that spending going?? To Iraq; to his big business and wealthy cronies (in the guise of "tax refunds" and otehr perks); and that's about it. Schools are losing funding left and right, jobs are contracting still, and layoffs are still occuring, along with those jobs going overseas or to Mexico. That so-called "tax relief" is not really seen by anyone at the bottom of the food chain, the ones who are carrying the tax burden to begin with, only the wealthy and big business are seeing those "reliefs", as far as I can tell.

That "holding pattern" is just smoke and mirrors: make 'em think yer doing the job, when behind the scenes, the wheels are falling off. The FEd is trying to hold things together, without trying to be obvious, at least thru November; the "job recovery" is based on the numbers of people who are actively on unemployment compensation; the rest have fallen off the lists, when their UC ended, and those numbers are not being considered at all--otherwise, the unemployment numbers would be drastically different. The administration released a chunk of the oil reserves into the fuel pipelines, ostensibly to help drop the oil prices (conveniently, right before the election); but this backfired, because the price of oil just spiked (!!!$75 per bbl!!!! :eek2:). So, the evidence of "fiddling" is there, and most of it is being done behind the scenes.

As for this present administration: I just think they flat screwed up, and are too beholden to too many special interests to do their jobs in a fair and balanced (or even honest) manner. 9-11 didn't help; but, I think we were headed for a fall to begin with, and the scandals of Enron, et al, and thier connections to presidential policy would have had as detrimental an effect on the economy.

Okay, you're speaking liberal again, so let's fix some of your screwed up facts. A small part of the strategic oil reserves were released in September because of hurricane Ivan. So if the price of oil just spiked, then Bush's contacts in the energy industry aren't that powerful, are they? How can you accuse him of doing something nefarious in order to help his election campaign when it didn't actually have the result you claimed he was after? You can't have it both ways. It's just like saying we invaded Iraq for the oil.

I'd also like to know where you got the idea that Greenspan is somehow in collusion with the White House to fool the American people. He has served under five different administrations and four presidents.

"According to data from the Internal Revenue Service, the top 1 percent of income earners pay nearly 35 percent of the income tax burden; the top 10 percent pay 65 percent; and the top 25 percent pay nearly 83 percent. The bottom 50 percent of income earners, on the other hand, pay barely 4 percent of income taxes. By definition, then, it is impossible to cut taxes without the so-called rich receiving a share of the benefits." Tax Foundation, "Distribution of the Federal Individual Income Tax," Special Report No. 101, November 2000.
I don't know how to make this one any more plain. How can people benefit from tax breaks if they don't pay taxes?

Your last paragraph reads right out of the manual again. Generalizations stated as facts with nothing to back them up. What evidence do you have of any conflict of interest? If you don't have it, you can't just drop "Enron" and "Haliburton" into a conversation and expect it to carry any weight.

You absolutely cannot in good conscience base a political discussion on hindsight when you didn't see it coming. We invaded Iraq because they wouldn't let the weapons inspectors in as was a condition of the end of Desert Storm. The UN was only too happy to be in charge of Iraq's oil; they still have billions in bank accounts from Iraqi oil money. France, Germany and Russia were happy to do business with Iraq under the table because they knew that any weapons that Saddam might potentially make or sell would not be used against them. Perhaps we shouldn't be trying to help the Iraqis. Perhaps they are animals that deserve someone like Saddam, and if that's the case, then from now on we can just bomb all of those countries back to the stone age every time they start to build weapons. I thought liberals were the humanitarians?

[Tex Arcana]

"According to data from the Internal Revenue Service, the top 1 percent of income earners pay nearly 35 percent of the income tax burden; the top 10 percent pay 65 percent; and the top 25 percent pay nearly 83 percent. The bottom 50 percent of income earners, on the other hand, pay barely 4 percent of income taxes. By definition, then, it is impossible to cut taxes without the so-called rich receiving a share of the benefits." Tax Foundation, "Distribution of the Federal Individual Income Tax," Special Report No. 101, November 2000.
I don't know how to make this one any more plain. How can people benefit from tax breaks if they don't pay taxes?



What's the link?

AS for the rest.. whatever. I'm tired of people acting as if I' a bleeding commie, when all I do is ask questions and point out inconsistencies. I think I'm gonna move to the country and forget about politics and whatnot, and let the nation drown in its own greed and ignorance.

Out.

[Alpine]

I'm tired of all this BS anyway, so count on me to pretty much to be gone in short order; I have better things to do than put a burr in your rather ample saddle. :vomit: Tex Arcana, Please speed up your being gone in short order. You have better things to do remember. We are also tired of all your BS. I dont remember ever seeing you at any TALON functions. Maybe you have and I just have never met you. Is this your contribution to a car club, this presidential thread. Go write a book about it with all the spare time your going to have since you said you were not going to post here anymore.
Have a nice day.:)

[anglerx007]

All the discussion about the "L" word from the last debate. Why are they talking about our trucks? :)

[98Cobra]

What's the link?

AS for the rest.. whatever. I'm tired of people acting as if I' a bleeding commie, when all I do is ask questions and point out inconsistencies. I think I'm gonna move to the country and forget about politics and whatnot, and let the nation drown in its own greed and ignorance.

Out.
I searched up and down the IRS website for the actual report, but their site SUCKS. However, I am sure you could call and request a hard copy.

I have enjoyed watching this "debate", but it is obvious Tex that your views are colored somewhat by your station in life at this time.

[tliss]

I still say I'm voting for this guy. Here he is with his advisors on Air Force 1 (light blue jacket).

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/26dennis_on_AF1.jpg

Sixpipes for President

Tom

[TreeFiddy]

What's the link?

AS for the rest.. whatever. I'm tired of people acting as if I' a bleeding commie, when all I do is ask questions and point out inconsistencies. I think I'm gonna move to the country and forget about politics and whatnot, and let the nation drown in its own greed and ignorance.

Out.

The report is called: Distribution of the Federal Individual Income Tax : Top-Earning Five Percent Pays Over Half, Top One Percent Over a Third / Patrick Fleenor. Washington, DC, Nov. 2000. 6p. (Special Report, no. 101)

Here's a link to an excerpt:
http://www.pro1040.com/who_pays_the_tax_burden.htm

I'm sorry to hear that your only response to my request for facts to back up your claims is "whatever". I also never called you a commie. If you recall, it was you who called me a fascist.

I'm just as happy as most of you to see this thread die a quiet death. It's not really appropriate fare for a vehicle club site. I get way too passionate about some things, as many of you who know me are aware. At least we weren't talking religion. :D

[Tex Arcana]

The report is called: Distribution of the Federal Individual Income Tax : Top-Earning Five Percent Pays Over Half, Top One Percent Over a Third / Patrick Fleenor. Washington, DC, Nov. 2000. 6p. (Special Report, no. 101)

Here's a link to an excerpt:
http://www.pro1040.com/who_pays_the_tax_burden.htm

I'm sorry to hear that your only response to my request for facts to back up your claims is "whatever". I also never called you a commie. If you recall, it was you who called me a fascist.

I'm just as happy as most of you to see this thread die a quiet death. It's not really appropriate fare for a vehicle club site. I get way too passionate about some things, as many of you who know me are aware. At least we weren't talking religion. :D


Yeah, yer right: time to let this die. I'm sorry I even bothered to express my opinion here, becasue all I've done is take a beating for it. Thank goodness it ain't in person: I suspect I'd be strung up to the nearest tree!! :eek2:

I'm like you, in that I get too passionate about some things, and politics and religion both piss me off to the point where I can't hold back, so don't get me started again.

[Tex Arcana]

I searched up and down the IRS website for the actual report, but their site SUCKS. However, I am sure you could call and request a hard copy.

I have enjoyed watching this "debate", but it is obvious Tex that your views are colored somewhat by your station in life at this time.

In truth, I'm fairly well-off, to the point where we're in the process of buying another house, and selling this one. I don't like to bandy that fact about, for various reasons. However, since I was young I've always had a keen sense of inequity and hypocrisy, and I get rather upset when I see them in action. The real reason I got nailed at my last job was office politics, and that pisses me off as well.

I just hate seeing people screw other people, just becasue they can, or for the almighty dollar. I was taught to treat people with respect, and to be fair in my dealings; but, I can't do that anymore, there's just too many people willing to take advantage of that and try to screw me for a buck or more.

So.. I went overboard, and I apologize if I offended anyone. But my views are mine, and I am who I am: if you can't accept that, then I'm sorry, but there's nothing I can do about it.

[Sixpipes]

I still say I'm voting for this guy. Here he is with his advisors on Air Force 1 (light blue jacket).

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/26dennis_on_AF1.jpg

Sixpipes for President

Tom
I remember that meeting well. I had a sinus infection at 40,000 feet and my head swelled up so big, I thought it was going to explode. Thanks for the support, but any candidate that advertises on the side of a race car gets my vote. :cool:

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/8mvc-049f-med.jpg

[dboat]

So.. I went overboard, and I apologize if I offended anyone. But my views are mine, and I am who I am: if you can't accept that, then I'm sorry, but there's nothing I can do about it.

Tex,
I am glad that you can post your thoughts.. even if I dont agree with them.

Having said that, the thread would have been a little more civil if everyone would have done what I originally asked..

I was just curious to know how the vote would go today if it were up to Talon. I am asking that no one post their thoughts, just their vote because these things get to where people start flaming one another. If you dont want to vote for one of the two major party candidates, tell us who you would vote for, i.e. Nader, etc.
Doug, I would ask you to keep tabs so that we dont let this get out of hand.
Thanks
Dana

[Tex Arcana]

Tex,
I am glad that you can post your thoughts.. even if I dont agree with them.

Having said that, the thread would have been a little more civil if everyone would have done what I originally asked..

I was just curious to know how the vote would go today if it were up to Talon. I am asking that no one post their thoughts, just their vote because these things get to where people start flaming one another. If you dont want to vote for one of the two major party candidates, tell us who you would vote for, i.e. Nader, etc.
Doug, I would ask you to keep tabs so that we dont let this get out of hand.
Thanks
Dana


Well, thanks for your civility as well.. I will strive to be more civil in the future.

Oh, teh INTarWeb: the one place where you cna be something COMPLETELY different; the one place where one can say things they wouldn't ever say anywhere else. :(

I have a suggestion, tho: www.presidentmatch.com. Check it out, and post your results. Pretty nice setup there. ;)

[Sixpipes]

Interesting article...............................

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1963&e=18&u=/ap/20041021/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_vietnamese_americans

[Sandman]

Just received this in an email, just thought I would share it with yall.


"Please note that Texas is the only state with a legal right to secede from the Union (please refer to the Texas-American Annexation Treaty of 1848). We Texans love y'all, but we'll have to take action if Kerry wins president over Bush. We'll miss you too. Texas has given all those complainers plenty of time to get used to the results. After seeing the whiners along the campaign route, the folks from Texas are considering taking matters into our their hands.
Here is our solution:

#1: Let John Kerry become President of the United States. (all 49
states.)

#2: George W. Bush becomes the President of the Republic of Texas.
So what does Texas have to do to survive as a Republic?

1. NASA is just south of Houston, Texas. (we will control the space industry.)

2. We refine over 85% of the gasoline in the United States.

3. Defense Industry. (we have over 65% of it) The term "Don't mess with Texas," will take on a whole new meaning.

4. Oil - we can supply all the oil that the Republic of Texas will need for the next 300 years. Yankee states? Sorry about that.

5. Natural Gas - Again we have all we need and it's too bad about those northern states. John Kerry will figure a way to keep them warm....

6. Computer Industry - we currently lead the nation in producing computer chips and communications: Small places like Texas Instruments, Dell Computer, EDS, Raytheon, National Semiconductor, Motorola, Intel, AMD, Atmel, Applied Materials, Ball Semiconductor, Dallas Semiconductor, Delphi, Nortel, Alcatel, Etc, Etc. The list goes on and on.

7. Health Centers - We have the largest research centers for Cancer research, the best burn centers and the top trauma units in the world and other large health planning centers.

8. We have enough colleges to keep us going: UT., Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Rice, SMU, University of Houston, Baylor, UNT, Texas Women's University, etc. Ivy grows better in the south anyway

9. We have a ready supply of workers. (just open the border when we need some more).

10. We have control of the paper industry, plastics, insurance, etc.

11. In case of a foreign invasion, we have the Texas National Guard and the Texas Air National Guard. We don't have an army but since everybody down here has at least six rifles and a pile of ammo, we can raise an army in 24 hours if we need it. If the situation really gets bad, we can always call Department of Public Safety and ask them to send over a couple Texas Rangers.

12. We are totally self sufficient in beef, poultry, hogs and several types of rain, fruit and vegetables and lets not forget seafood from the gulf. And verybody down here knows how to cook them so that they taste good. Don't need any food.

This just names a few of the items that will keep the Republic of Texas in good shape. There isn't a thing out there that we need and don't have.

Now to the rest of the United States under President Kerry:

Since you won't have the refineries to get gas for your cars, only
President Kerry will be able to drive around in his 9 mile per gallon SUV.
The rest of the United States will have to walk or ride bikes. You won't have any TV as the space center in Houston will cut off your communications. You won't have any natural gas to heat your homes but since Mr. Kerry has predicted global warming, you will not need the gas.

Signed, The People in Texas"

[Silver_2000]

Just received this in an email, just thought I would share it with yall.


"Please note that Texas is the only state with a legal right to secede from the Union (please refer to the Texas-American Annexation Treaty of 1848). We Texans love y'all, but we'll have to take action if Kerry wins president over Bush. We'll miss you too. Texas has given all those complainers plenty of time to get used to the results. After seeing the whiners along the campaign route, the folks from Texas are considering taking matters into our their hands.
Here is our solution:

#1: Let John Kerry become President of the United States. (all 49
states.)

#2: George W. Bush becomes the President of the Republic of Texas.
So what does Texas have to do to survive as a Republic?

1. NASA is just south of Houston, Texas. (we will control the space industry.)

2. We refine over 85% of the gasoline in the United States.

3. Defense Industry. (we have over 65% of it) The term "Don't mess with Texas," will take on a whole new meaning.

4. Oil - we can supply all the oil that the Republic of Texas will need for the next 300 years. Yankee states? Sorry about that.

5. Natural Gas - Again we have all we need and it's too bad about those northern states. John Kerry will figure a way to keep them warm....

6. Computer Industry - we currently lead the nation in producing computer chips and communications: Small places like Texas Instruments, Dell Computer, EDS, Raytheon, National Semiconductor, Motorola, Intel, AMD, Atmel, Applied Materials, Ball Semiconductor, Dallas Semiconductor, Delphi, Nortel, Alcatel, Etc, Etc. The list goes on and on.

7. Health Centers - We have the largest research centers for Cancer research, the best burn centers and the top trauma units in the world and other large health planning centers.

8. We have enough colleges to keep us going: UT., Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Rice, SMU, University of Houston, Baylor, UNT, Texas Women's University, etc. Ivy grows better in the south anyway

9. We have a ready supply of workers. (just open the border when we need some more).

10. We have control of the paper industry, plastics, insurance, etc.

11. In case of a foreign invasion, we have the Texas National Guard and the Texas Air National Guard. We don't have an army but since everybody down here has at least six rifles and a pile of ammo, we can raise an army in 24 hours if we need it. If the situation really gets bad, we can always call Department of Public Safety and ask them to send over a couple Texas Rangers.

12. We are totally self sufficient in beef, poultry, hogs and several types of rain, fruit and vegetables and lets not forget seafood from the gulf. And verybody down here knows how to cook them so that they taste good. Don't need any food.

This just names a few of the items that will keep the Republic of Texas in good shape. There isn't a thing out there that we need and don't have.

Now to the rest of the United States under President Kerry:

Since you won't have the refineries to get gas for your cars, only
President Kerry will be able to drive around in his 9 mile per gallon SUV.
The rest of the United States will have to walk or ride bikes. You won't have any TV as the space center in Houston will cut off your communications. You won't have any natural gas to heat your homes but since Mr. Kerry has predicted global warming, you will not need the gas.

Signed, The People in Texas"
Thats funny :tu:

[dboat]

Where does this thread rank in the all time length and reply list? it has 124 replies and 9 pages long with over 2000 views.. You cant count the performance listing stickies against it though..
just curious.. never thought it would go on this long.
Dana

[Silver_2000]

Where does this thread rank in the all time length and reply list? it has 124 replies and 9 pages long with over 2000 views.. You cant count the performance listing stickies against it though..
just curious.. never thought it would go on this long.
DanaHere are some stats I found

Newest member to the forums[Racingki] (http://www.talonclub.com/forum/admincp/user.php?do=edit&userid=752)
Record online users182 (09-14-2004 05:26 PM)
Top poster[L8 APEX - 4811] (http://www.talonclub.com/forum/admincp/user.php?do=edit&userid=15)
Most replied to thread[TALON Shirts Hats etc etc] (http://www.talonclub.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=2613)
Most viewed thread[Quickest TALON 1/4 Mile Times List] (http://www.talonclub.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=1310)
Most popular forum[TALON General Discussion] (http://www.talonclub.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=2)

[TreeFiddy]

I for one am relieved that a performance-related thread is the most popular. It would suck if this was the most interesting thing we had to talk about.