Those who have run KB blowers...HP claims?

[WA 2 FST]

The Kenne Bell website claims a 96rwhp (peak, obviously) gain over the stock Eaton given the SAME pulley size/boost (~14-15psi). Their test truck went from 415rw to 511rw.

I realize due to static compression, we are limited in how much boost can be run. Sure with race gas, you can push the envelope a bit, but for durability and repeatability (i.e.: less changes in the equation make it easier to tune, even if that means you go a bit slower) purposes I'm not concerned with that for the moment.

IMHO if you can pick up 90+rwhp and you're pushing the same amount of boost, $3k is not a bad price. I realize this doesn't include installation or tuning. I realize one would also probably need an aftermarket MAF and possibly a fuel system upgrade as well...but you'd need those things to get 90+rwhp whether you bought the new blower or not.

But is this test for real, or what have others found? I realize "not all boost is created equal". Efficiency of the compressor is critical. But its hard for me to believe at a relatively low boost level (14psi) that the KB will make THAT much more power than the Eaton.

[00Bolt]

well im sure Rob and Ron will chime in and know alot more.... but i think iv read over and over that it will consistantly add ~75hp

but with a built motor and all the crap you got...who knows.... ??? gonna be a fun ride!!!

[WA 2 FST]

you're getting me confused with the _other_ Wes. :) I saw his truck today and with the cams it sounds pretty mean, even at cold idle.

75rwhp would be great. If I can see ~385-390rwhp with my current mods + 75rwhp with just bolting on the KB + tuning (same boost to the motor... ~14psi) and nothing else... that would be awesome.

[00Bolt]

oppps, Wesman... nevermind...

anyway, but like you said... Im sure you would have to upgrade injectors, pumps, etc....

[WA 2 FST]

Fuel system and MAF requirements would be based solely on what kind of HP they can handle. I know for a fact that given the right tuning 42s can handle a LOT of HP very safely. I have them in my twin-turbo'd Z06 which will soon be ~590rwhp. But the GM motors run at a higher fuel pressure than the Fords.

I would think (just an educated guess) that 42s can handle 450rwhp in our trucks with no issue. The MAF may be pegged before then, though. That is certainly a consideration.

Nothing that can't be determined via experience from those who have been there, or by datalogging. :)

Basically it boils down to this... you can certainly achieve 450-460rwhp without a KB, but by adding lots of other parts (ported Eaton, MP blower, long tubes, efan, more boost from the other blowers which, in turn, can create its own problems) or it appears I could get that number with 14psi from a KB + tuning. Thus the basis for my original ?

[wesman]

Yes, you can hit ~450-475 rwhp with a KB at 13-14 psi. You wont run out of injector, but you'll be close if not pegging the stock MAF. Apparently they can be tricked to push more power too.

The KB is definitely the best bang for the buck, if you want to keep it at 13-14psi you wouldn't need a lot of supporting mods, obviously the more you put on the better it will perform. That is another test all it's own...how much power the stock rods can handle before exiting stage left :throw:

Once you start adding up the little bolt ons, it's quick to get to 3k...

Longtubes,cats and full exhaust- $1500
Chip ,intake and pulley: $750
Electric Fan- $400
Single TB-$400

These are very common mods and you're already at $3k.....you may be around 400/500, most likely less depending on the pulley you choose. With a KB and an intale, you ne well over 400/500 and the more mods you add to it, the better it's gonna flow.

--wes

[02BOLT]

Wes,

All I can tell you is what I saw when we bolted up the KB to my stock shortblock. Prior to installing the KB, I ran the factory upper pulley(2.93") on the Eaton w/ a 4psi lower. This combo saw around 11-13psi on average(depending on how hot or cold it was). This was w/ the factory manifolds and cat-pipe. This combo was good for a best dyno pull of 422HP and 520TQ, w/ a good tune and the normal host of bolt-ons. Its best ET was a 12.37 @ 109mph on a perfect November evening in 2002. On average she spit out consistent mid 12's(anywhere from 12.40's-12.70's @ 107-108 mph, depending on air conditions).

Upon switching to the KB, we dropped to a 2psi lower pulley and went w/ a 3" upper. This combo netted right at 15psi, and I often saw 17psi right at the shiftpoint(5400 rpm). The KB just continues to build boost with rpm. So, we were spinning the KB slower than the Eaton and making 3-4 more psi. This translated into 470 RWHP and 560-570 RWTQ.

At FFW in 2003, she ran consistent 12.0's @ 112 mph all weekend. It was in the lower 80*s in the morning and lower 90*s in the afternoon. It didn't seem to be nearly as effected by the air conditions as the Eaton.

Then, after adding Long Tubes, she picked up 15 RWHP and 15 RWTQacross the entire rev range, and went 11.60's @ 117mph at the Talon Fall Classic in some good 50* air. All of this on the stock internals and fuel system.

The difference in the KB and Eaton are night and day in every aspect. It pulled so much harder up top it wasn't even funny. It is a whole lot more efficient in its operation, which translated into significantly cooler air intake temps, thus higher HP and lower ET's.

Bottom line: I loved it. In terms of ease of installation, tunability, and all around performance, it's really hard to beat, especially with all of the supporting hardware. On stock internals, I'd advise moderate boost, a solid reliable tune, and ABSOLUTELY NO FULL BOOST BLASTS IN OVERDRIVE(They're not a good idea on the Eaton, much less a KB.). Hope this helps...http://www.talonclub.com/forum/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

[SpeedyBolt]

02Bolt,

How long did you have the KB on before you did your bottom-end work? Was it just for peace of mind or did something break? After I do my L.T.'s I want to get a KB! Just have to sell some of my other cars first! Too many projects going at once! :D

[L8 APEX]

I've been driving Wes' truck arond for the last week breaking in the motor;) . The throttle is like crack rock I waited for 100 miles before I made a little boost. From the stop light before the shop I light the tires through three gears until I reached the shop parking lot. Never exceeding 5lbs of boost or over half throttle. A KB on a built motor should be against the lawknana . I called Whipple concerning their new Lightning blower. They dwarf a KB in may ways they have a race only 3.3L or something. They have a 15 unit buy in to be a dealer that would be $50K in blowers black finish $60K polished. Whos game 175HP gains on stock engine?:evil
http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/product.asp?ProdID=1170

[02BOLT]

The stock motor never broke. I got lucky, and came across a deal with a gentleman who had a built motor(JDM shortblock w/ factory '03 heads/cams) in his truck he was about to trade in. I made him an offer on a swap, and he accepted. I did it for peace of mind, and the deal was way too good to pass up.

When I had to let her go, I passed that same deal on to another TALON member, along with the rest of her go fast parts and such.

The thing you have to be careful with the KB on a stock block is, that it is really easy to get greedy, and want a little more power...then a little more...etc. It is too simple to slap on a smaller upper pulley and pick up HP just like that. You have to limit yourself, or that blower will OBLITERATE your stock motor quick, fast, and in a hurry. It can be done though(limiting yourself). I ran the KB on my stock motor for close to 6 months, and Mark#2 has been running his for over a year now!:eek: :bows

[SpeedyBolt]

Wouldn't a KB still be cheaper? 50k/15=$3333.33 ! Plus, I wonder if they tune the same as a KB? With all of the KB's out, there are enough combo of parts out to get a decent tune!

[WA 2 FST]

Rob,

Great info. I tend to be very conservative, and I do not believe I'd fall into the trap of being too greedy. When I ran nitrous on several vehicles I've owned in the past, I never seemed to use it... just didn't want to "waste" it just for my own fun. I have first-hand experience with what being greedy can do years ago when I nuked the ring lands in my '90 Mustang by running too much timing and boost, and not enough fuel.

If the stock L block is good for ~450rwhp, then I'm fine with that. Same with the fuel system. I am just on a fact-finding mission to learn the limits of stuff, and have enough restraint to keep it below that until the time would come to build something that can handle more. Now if something fails (for instance a fuel pump) then you're SOL whether you're at 450rwhp or 390rwhp.

I will be lucky to see 385rwhp with my current setup (4lb pulley, SCT, CAI...that's it for power producers). Adding just a KB and making the same boost should hopefully get me to 435-440rwhp.

What other mods did you have to your truck when you were making 420+rwhp with your 4lb pulley? I'm not going to come anywhere near that.

Is the consensus that 450+/- rwhp is still very safe (assuming the tune is good, of course) on the stock block and fuel system? What about the transmission? I have a FTVB and that's it. (no worries about me doing extended pulls at WOT in OD). What is the safe boost limit on these trucks assuming 93 octane? Contrary to what some believe, this is not just a "timing and fuel" issue. Once you cross the threshold of maximum static compression, it makes no differnce how much timing you pull and/or how much fuel you throw at it.

These trucks are ~8.4:1 stock base CR right? I'd think 15-16psi would be the max on 93 octane. 100-105 octane would allow more.

[WA 2 FST]

Terry,

The Whipple blower looks incredible. Until you mentioned it to me yesterday I didn't realize that was the OEM blower on the Ford GT. I thought they were running a polished Eaton of some sort. No wonder the GT is being underrated at 550hp... and running 130mph+ in the traps (according to some reports, which would mean its easily a 600hp car stock).

Have you contacted Whipple to find out pricing on their blower? The fact it comes with its own larger TB and inlet is very cool. Less $$ you'd have to spend to optimize the KB setup.

I see the kit for my wife's 5.4 Expedition is a cool $5500! Yikes! Of course, I know that would have to include a seriously upgraded fuel system, something the L wouldn't need.

[L8 APEX]

Yeah the Whipple is more comprehensive unit with TB, intake and all. It is suppose to be about 400 more than a KB I believe. I would love to carry then but there is a $50K buy in to be a dealer. You can search around their site and see where they signed an exclusive agreement with Lyshoming and exceeded Ford and Eaton durability testing reqs. My built motors are setup at 8.1:1 comp so we can run more boost on them. With race fuel 20+ psi is possible with significant timing.

[r1eater]

Good thread Wes.. knana

Rob, I didn't realize you were running 11.60's on a stock block. Thats very impressive. :tu:

[03LightningRocks]

Stock Blower.... 16 LBS Boost



http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/226226Pull_2_85_degrees_race_octane_booster_20_tim ing-med.jpg


Apten Ported......18 LBS Boost

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/226Apten_6L2U18TotalRaceTune-med.JPG


Kenne Bell...... 16 LBS Boost

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/226RacePullThreeUpdatedTune.jpg



Kenne Bell.... 16 LBS Boost... MAS Replaced and tuned

http://www.svtgalleries.net/gallery/data/500/226File0002.jpg

[WA 2 FST]

Rocks,
You didn't change anything except the MAF sensor and the tune b/w the time you ran the Apten and swapped on the KB?

Thanks for the info. This is an excellent comparison.

I know you and Rob have many more mods than what I would consider. What I'm considering is just leaving the stock exhaust, stock fuel system, stock converter, etc. and just throwing a KB or Whipple on it. I'm at ~14psi now.

I'm not interested in building a motor yet, and would rather stay away from building trannies all the time (as many people that have trouble with the aftermarket units!). So 450+/-rwhp/500rwtq would be fine with me. As you proved, these figures can easily be obtained with an Apten at 18psi and a good tune. I just think long-term going for the KB first might be the best option, even if I don't take advantage of the insane potential it has.

[WA 2 FST]

Yeah the Whipple is more comprehensive unit with TB, intake and all. It is suppose to be about 400 more than a KB I believe. I would love to carry then but there is a $50K buy in to be a dealer. You can search around their site and see where they signed an exclusive agreement with Lyshoming and exceeded Ford and Eaton durability testing reqs. My built motors are setup at 8.1:1 comp so we can run more boost on them. With race fuel 20+ psi is possible with significant timing.
If its $400 more than a KB, then it is the best way to go. You don't have to buy an intake or TB with the Whipple. You would do that with a KB to maximize its potential anyway, so in the end the Whipple is cheaper.

Thanks for the info on the CR vs. boost. That's about what I figured.

[Silver_2000]

Is the whipple being sold by ford racing as it appeared at SEMA or were they just sharing exhibit space ?

[03LightningRocks]

Wes,

The only difference in the first three runs was the blower. The 4th pull was after I added a Pro-M mas. Adding the MAS mostly just repaired the a/f line(straightened it out).


I ran an 11.8x with the first dyno. That was with stock block and stock(non-ported) blower. 45 degrees outside.

The second dyno I ran an 11.9x with the second configuration(ported blower)...... 75-80 degrees outside.

The third dyno I ran an 11.8x out in Atlanta in 85 degree, humid as hell, air.

The fourth dyno I was running 11.7x's darned near anywhere in any temp I wanted.

As for mods.....I already had every bolt on mod you could get before I started with the blower upgrades.

The Kenne Bell is actually easier on a stock block than a stock blower at the same boost...IMHO. The air charge is cooler with a more effecient blower, thus reducing heat, which reduces chances of detonation.

I have often thought that if the Kenne Bell had of been around when I first bought my truck, i probably would have done that mod first. Then I would have worked on all the helper mods next....for example...Headers, heat exchanger upgrade, electric fan..ect.

[WA 2 FST]

The fourth dyno I was running 11.7x's darned near anywhere in any temp I wanted.

The Kenne Bell is actually easier on a stock block than a stock blower at the same boost...IMHO. The air charge is cooler with a more effecient blower, thus reducing heat, which reduces chances of detonation.


Statement one ("fourth dyno running 11.7x...") supports your second statement. Being able to run consistent times with less variation depending on temp (heat soak) conditions, proves the blower is more efficient and a more efficient blower is easier to tune and easier on the engine (stock or otherwise).

People out on F150online keep saying the KB is "harder on the motor" than the others. Assuming all build boost in the same manner (and as positive displacement blowers, I believe they do), the one that is more efficient at a given boost level will be safer...even if it makes more power. Now this is assuming the block can handle the power you're making, of course. I understand people would be tempted to up the ante (boost) b/c this blower is so much more efficient, and then you can get into other problems. But that's not the blower's fault, or "how it makes boost" or anything else. That's an end user issue.

A centrifugal blower would be easier on the block than any of the options of PD blowers for the L b/c it builds boost in a much more linear, rpm-dependent fashion. Of course, you'd run slower too (assuming everything else was equal) b/c you'd have less HP/TQ under the curve.

Thanks for the additional info. I sincerely appreciate it and it answers a lot of questions for me.

[WA 2 FST]

Is the whipple being sold by ford racing as it appeared at SEMA or were they just sharing exhibit space ?
Doug, this link to FRPP may help answer your question. I just want to know when the Whipple will be available from Ford as an Ford part. :)

http://www.fordracingparts.com/announcements/news09.asp

[03LightningRocks]

>>>snip......
People out on F150online keep saying the KB is "harder on the motor" than the others..... >>>snip

IMHO.....99% of the posters on F150 online don't know sh!t from shine-ola :rolleyes: .

I usually read that forum for a good laugh. I am actually surprised they even had a thread over there that didn't involve someones dog pics or job status. :rll:


Anyway.....your right about the centrifugal being easier on the motor, but I wonder how much time one would loose in the sixty from lack of torque under the curve. I suppose we will see if Sal ever gets his working.


Rocks:beer:

[03LightningRocks]

One more item of interest. Jim@JDM was making noises about having the whipple's by the end of the year. I am assuming he is planning on stocking them. This was something he mentioned on the phone to me, i haven't seen if he has posted it yet.


You may be able to buy my Kenne Bell once the "big" whipple comes out;) .

[BC Lightning]

if thats the case i've got dibs on ron's Kenne Bell, as well as the front runners after Hallsville :D

[WA 2 FST]

IMHO.....99% of the posters on F150 online don't know sh!t from shine-ola :rolleyes: .

I usually read that forum for a good laugh. I am actually surprised they even had a thread over there that didn't involve someones dog pics or job status. :rll:


Anyway.....your right about the centrifugal being easier on the motor, but I wonder how much time one would loose in the sixty from lack of torque under the curve. I suppose we will see if Sal ever gets his working.


Rocks:beer:
I agree with you about F150online. Ends up being a place where the 2-3 big tuners can just try to put the "little people" in their place. Then when one of the little guys who has some knowledge asks a tough question they backpedal like crazy. They think just b/c someone doesn't do this for a living that they don't know @#%. Wrong.

Set up correctly, the centrifugal will make nasty power and run just as quick as anything else. But if you just bolted a 14psi Y or T-trim Vortech to an L, it would run slower than the L with 14psi from one of the other blowers. Once you start making major mods, you can throw that out and the centri blower will do just fine. Two things working against it... weight of the L and an auto trans. You need a higher stall for a centri to be as good down the 1/4 mile.

[02BOLT]

Wes,

At the time my truck made 422 RWHP, it had the stock blower, stock manifolds and cat-pipe, CAI, Accufab T-body, E-fan, Bassani Cat-back, line-mod valve, 4psi lower, and JDM J-49 file(single program chip).

As for a "safe" HP level for the stock block. It seems to vary from truck to truck. IMHO, the factory internals will withstand a fair amount of abuse as long as the user takes the necessary aforementioned precautions.

Based on your past experiences, and your knowledge, I believe your truck would do just fine. Furthermore there are several guys on here currently making some really stout numbers on their factory internals....Mark(Mark#2), and Adam(Stormshadow) are the first two to come to mind. They're both pushing upwards of 470 RWHP, and have been for some time. Ron(03L-rocks), as you can tell, also has alot of experience at hauling serious a$$ on the factory stuff.

If you ran a KB w/ a 2psi lower and 3.25" upper on your current combo, with a conservative tune, I believe you'd see around 12-14 psi and upwards of 440-450 RWHP easily. I don't know much about the Whipples, but from everything that's being said, it should be comparable to the KB in overall performance.

The good thing about the KB is that it is out there NOW, and is being run on the VAST majority of the fastest L's in the country. Your factory intake will more than suffice up to and into the 10 second zone, so I would not worry too much about that, unless you have really big plans. It has a boatload of R&D time behind it, and would be easy to get set up in terms of tuning. It's been out there long enough now that they seem to be pretty well dialed in. It is not however, as pretty as the Whipple. JMHO.

Goodluck w/ your decision,
Rob

[Tex Arcana]

Statement one ("fourth dyno running 11.7x...") supports your second statement. Being able to run consistent times with less variation depending on temp (heat soak) conditions, proves the blower is more efficient and a more efficient blower is easier to tune and easier on the engine (stock or otherwise).

People out on F150online keep saying the KB is "harder on the motor" than the others. Assuming all build boost in the same manner (and as positive displacement blowers, I believe they do), the one that is more efficient at a given boost level will be safer...even if it makes more power. Now this is assuming the block can handle the power you're making, of course. I understand people would be tempted to up the ante (boost) b/c this blower is so much more efficient, and then you can get into other problems. But that's not the blower's fault, or "how it makes boost" or anything else. That's an end user issue.

A centrifugal blower would be easier on the block than any of the options of PD blowers for the L b/c it builds boost in a much more linear, rpm-dependent fashion. Of course, you'd run slower too (assuming everything else was equal) b/c you'd have less HP/TQ under the curve.

Thanks for the additional info. I sincerely appreciate it and it answers a lot of questions for me.

Wes, the F150online folks are smoking crack: it's real simple, the less heat generated by the blower (whatever type), the more efficient it is, and the easier on the motor it will be (because the chances of detonation are lessened). A screwblower is so damn efficient, it's in the same league as a centrifugal in terms of heat gain, and better because it's positive displacement and gives you a much more linear power curve overall (centrifugals have a "sweet spot" where they will pump air best at a certain RPM, making for a "peakier" power curve").

I saw a display at an oil and gas convention in Houston 3 years ago, where they had a pair of fluid pumps (for pumping water and mud into a hole), one a Roots-type, the other a twinscrew, both set up to turn by hand; of course, the twinscrew was hella easier to turn. Couple that with more efficient pumping, and you have something that can't be beat.

Good thread, dude.

[Tex Arcana]

ABSOLUTELY NO FULL BOOST BLASTS IN OVERDRIVE
Okay.. explain this, please. I know the tranny is the weak linnk, but is it THAT weak?? :(

[Tex Arcana]

I've been driving Wes' truck arond for the last week breaking in the motor;) . The throttle is like crack rock I waited for 100 miles before I made a little boost. From the stop light before the shop I light the tires through three gears until I reached the shop parking lot. Never exceeding 5lbs of boost or over half throttle. A KB on a built motor should be against the lawknana . I called Whipple concerning their new Lightning blower. They dwarf a KB in may ways they have a race only 3.3L or something. They have a 15 unit buy in to be a dealer that would be $50K in blowers black finish $60K polished. Whos game 175HP gains on stock engine?:evil
http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/product.asp?ProdID=1170

Something else in Whipple's favor: they're using Eaton internals (drives, seals, etc.). Coleman over at SVTTexas/SVTOA has a KB on his Terminator (which just dyno'd at 609hp/593tq!!:eek2:), and the seals on the nose and gearbox leak, forcing him to install a recovery system for the gear oil. I do'nt think Whipples have that particular issue.

It's just a matter of time before the price on the Whipple kit comes down, but for the money I'd prefer it. What else is included besides the blower?

[WA 2 FST]

Something else in Whipple's favor: they're using Eaton internals (drives, seals, etc.). Coleman over at SVTTexas/SVTOA has a KB on his Terminator (which just dyno'd at 609hp/593tq!!:eek2:), and the seals on the nose and gearbox leak, forcing him to install a recovery system for the gear oil. I do'nt think Whipples have that particular issue.

It's just a matter of time before the price on the Whipple kit comes down, but for the money I'd prefer it. What else is included besides the blower?
Well, I e-mailed Whipple on pricing so we'll see. The fact that it may be offered through FRPP is cool too. On the link Terry posted you can see that it comes with a new TB and inlet tube. It also has its own upper intake manifold. Those are three parts that people would often replace with or without the purchase of a KB or Apten ported blower. So you have to figure the cost of those parts in the equation.

Coleman is making some great numbers with that car. I think its interesting how far things have come, and then some things remain close to the same (forced induction theory and application remaining the same). I made nearly identical numbers from a 14psi S-trim Vortech on my old 5.0 Mustang (615rwhp/594rwtq). Who says a centrifugal can't make good low and mid-range? A _lot_ of it has to do with camming and port velocity of the intake and heads. This isn't nearly as important with a positive displacement blower. Granted, I had him by 50 cubes (331" 5.0 stroker motor), but the 4v heads certainly outflow the ones I had, and I bet he's pushing upwards of 18-20psi. :tu:

[02BOLT]

Okay.. explain this, please. I know the tranny is the weak linnk, but is it THAT weak?? http://www.talonclub.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gifIt has nothing to do with the tranny. A lot of guys that blow up there motors, do it while chasing a sportscar in a "top end"(125mph +) extended WOT run(which occurs in O/D). A lot of people get these trucks, and think they can run them just like their previous naturally aspirated Z28, T/A, Mustang, or whatever. There are several reasons WOT "top end" runs are a bad idea...here's a couple...

1. Heat build up. During extended top-end runs, the heat build up in any given cylinder is rediculous. The pistons in these trucks are forged aluminum. When they heat up they expand. The hotter they get, the more they expand. If they expand too much, they begin to "grab" the cylinder walls, thus causing undue friction, and stresses on the rods. Furthermore, the aforementioned heat build-up heavily contributes to the dreaded detonation.

2. Aerodynamics/Weight. These things have all the aerodynamic efficiency of your average brick wall. Above 100mph, these trucks have to work MUCH harder than your average sportscar. At any speed north of 120 mph, the tranny is gonna be in O/D. The problem with this at those speeds is that, in O/D the motor is spinning slower than the wheels, which puts a lot of stress on the reciprocating assembly, further contributing to rod failure(especially when you consider #1 is occurring simultaneously).

Lastly, as I mentioned before, a lot of people simply fail to realize the fact that they're still driving a 4600lb brick. A fast brick, but a brick just the same. These trucks are torque monsters, and are at their best down low. Even a 400 RWHP L, is gonna have a hard time keeping up with a near stock LS1 from a 70 mph roll on. Take that same car from a dig, or 30mph roll and the L kicks a$$. If you haven't caught the car by 80-90mph....chances are it ain't gonna happen.

So, to make a long story short, when in O/D, the motor loses the gear multiplication provided in the first three gears, which is fine under normal driving conditions. It's at WOT under FULL boost that this becomes an issue.

[ken cryder]

wes If the stock L block is good for ~450rwhp, then I'm fine with that. Same with the fuel system. I am just on a fact-finding mission to learn the limits of stuff, and have enough restraint to keep it below that until the time would come to build something that can handle more. Now if something fails (for instance a fuel pump) then you're SOL whether you're at 450rwhp or 390rwhp.

i was running right at 530 hp to the rear wheels before i had a fuel pump switch fail . but i also ran water alcohol , and only a 120 shot contrary to what many people thought i was running . and that was on 93 octane gas . i ran very coservative on the fuel air ratio and timming . with a 5lb lower s/b tb stock exhaust except for the spinteck mufflers . i'm not sure what the timing or a/f was or hp when it finally folded 2 pistons . but the remarkable thing was how good all the bearings looked on the connecting rods and crank mains . they looked almost new . with 46000 and over 400 passes on nitrous . who could ask for any better than that .

rob i thought the ported eaton was getting some good results , in that they were more eficient and ran cooler ? i want to be at 650 to 700 hp at the rear wheels with this new motor i'm building .

ken

[r1eater]

Just for comparison...

http://revlimitracing.com/s4vids/dyno99.jpg

I'm very interested in 60mph punch roll on kicking ass. In my S4 I only had one car keep up with me on a 60mph punch. Z06 after Z06 after cobra after vette fell to me. Now in the truck I'm having a hard time holding off a freaking turbo neon. I had a good run with a Z21 not to long ago, he hung in there but I couldn't help but think if I was in my car I'd simply run away and laugh all the way doing it. I want to be able to do this in the truck and th KB seems the way to go. KB + small shot N20 = ass kicking :) from any speed

[Tex Arcana]

Well, I e-mailed Whipple on pricing so we'll see. The fact that it may be offered through FRPP is cool too. On the link Terry posted you can see that it comes with a new TB and inlet tube. It also has its own upper intake manifold. Those are three parts that people would often replace with or without the purchase of a KB or Apten ported blower. So you have to figure the cost of those parts in the equation.

Coleman is making some great numbers with that car. I think its interesting how far things have come, and then some things remain close to the same (forced induction theory and application remaining the same). I made nearly identical numbers from a 14psi S-trim Vortech on my old 5.0 Mustang (615rwhp/594rwtq). Who says a centrifugal can't make good low and mid-range? A _lot_ of it has to do with camming and port velocity of the intake and heads. This isn't nearly as important with a positive displacement blower. Granted, I had him by 50 cubes (331" 5.0 stroker motor), but the 4v heads certainly outflow the ones I had, and I bet he's pushing upwards of 18-20psi. :tu:
That does explain the cost, not to mention the internals and build quality.

Coleman's giving up less than you think: he's got the 310-ci stroker motor in his beast, with the stock heads (I think). He's about to get the heads done with new cams tho, so look for those numbers to climb.

If your centri was hitting its "sweet spot" quickly, that would explain your good low end. We had a '96(?) mystichrome the other day on the dyno, and it was showing some very impressive numbers, but I think it peaked late. (shrug).

[Tex Arcana]

It has nothing to do with the tranny.
...
So, to make a long story short, when in O/D, the motor loses the gear multiplication provided in the first three gears, which is fine under normal driving conditions. It's at WOT under FULL boost that this becomes an issue.

Does the aftercooler heat exchanger sizing have anything to do with this? Or is it an internal engine cooling issue?

[WA 2 FST]

If your centri was hitting its "sweet spot" quickly, that would explain your good low end. We had a '96(?) mystichrome the other day on the dyno, and it was showing some very impressive numbers, but I think it peaked late. (shrug).
Well, mine wasn't hitting its sweet spot that quickly... after all peak TQ was at 4800rpm, peak HP at 5900rpm. But it made over 400rwtq at only 2500rpm, so it was a flatter curve than what you see when people just bolt on a centri blower to an otherwise-stock application. Camming/valve timing events are critical. IMHO, you just want enough TQ to effectively get the vehicle moving quickly. Once you get past the threshold of available traction, more TQ is just a waste.

[02BOLT]

Does the aftercooler heat exchanger sizing have anything to do with this? Or is it an internal engine cooling issue?IMHO, an aftermarket heat exchanger will help some, but during an extended WOT run under full boost, its effects would become diminished.

Engine cooling has very little to do with it either. It has everything to do with cylinder pressure, heat build-up, and loads placed on the reciprocating assembly above 115-120mph in O/D. For example, your water temp guage does not have to be in the red before your truck will detonate. I promise you that 99% of guys that have blown the motors up in their L's have done so with the water temp guage right smack dab in the middle of its normal operating range.

Under "extended" WOT pulls in O/D the air that's being forced into the combustion chamber is constantly getting hotter and hotter, because the truck is still accelerating, thus building rpm, just at a much slower rate as compared to the first three gears. The faster you go, the more rpm the motor is turning, thus the faster the supercharger is spinning. The faster and longer the supercharger is spinning, the more heat it is going to create.

During quick 1/4 mile blasts, this is no big deal, because you're in and out of it within 10-13 seconds. However, if you are "in it to win it" on the big end, in O/D, out on the highway, then it could easily be 30-45 seconds to a minute at WOT. I'm not saying that it can't be done, and I'm sure guys get away with it all the time. All I'm saying is that it's not a good idea, especially for guys running 4-6psi lower pulleys on blowers that are already well past their efficient operating range. Chances are those that run their trucks like that on a regular basis will have to cough up the dough for a new motor eventually, especially as the air gets colder, and cylinder pressures rise even further as a result.

Lastly, during extended runs, the chances for any little thing to hiccup(like an injector or fuel pump), thus also causing catastrophic engine failure are greatly increased.

This is just my .02 from what I've seen and heard. My comments are in reference to your normal, everyday, bolt-on L's. I'm not saying someone can't go out and purposefully build one to run top end, like RUSLOW over on NLOC. I'm just trying to help guys keep their motors in one piece, especially as the temps go down, and the aforementioned cylinder pressures go up.http://www.talonclub.com/forum/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

Sorry 'bout the novel...

[Mark #2]

Wes,
Furthermore there are several guys on here currently making some really stout numbers on their factory internals....Mark(Mark#2), and Adam(Stormshadow) are the first two to come to mind. They're both pushing upwards of 470 RWHP, and have been for some time. Ron(03L-rocks), as you can tell, also has alot of experience at hauling serious a$$ on the factory stuff.

Rob
Rob is the expert, I just copied. 486/560 for over a year on stock internals:eek: , the key is to avoid detonation in my opinion.
Mark

[Tex Arcana]

IMHO, an aftermarket heat exchanger will help some, but during an extended WOT run under full boost, its effects would become diminished.

Engine cooling has very little to do with it either. It has everything to do with cylinder pressure, heat build-up, and loads placed on the reciprocating assembly above 115-120mph in O/D. For example, your water temp guage does not have to be in the red before your truck will detonate. I promise you that 99% of guys that have blown the motors up in their L's have done so with the water temp guage right smack dab in the middle of its normal operating range.

Under "extended" WOT pulls in O/D the air that's being forced into the combustion chamber is constantly getting hotter and hotter, because the truck is still accelerating, thus building rpm, just at a much slower rate as compared to the first three gears. The faster you go, the more rpm the motor is turning, thus the faster the supercharger is spinning. The faster and longer the supercharger is spinning, the more heat it is going to create.

During quick 1/4 mile blasts, this is no big deal, because you're in and out of it within 10-13 seconds. However, if you are "in it to win it" on the big end, in O/D, out on the highway, then it could easily be 30-45 seconds to a minute at WOT. I'm not saying that it can't be done, and I'm sure guys get away with it all the time. All I'm saying is that it's not a good idea, especially for guys running 4-6psi lower pulleys on blowers that are already well past their efficient operating range. Chances are those that run their trucks like that on a regular basis will have to cough up the dough for a new motor eventually, especially as the air gets colder, and cylinder pressures rise even further as a result.

Lastly, during extended runs, the chances for any little thing to hiccup(like an injector or fuel pump), thus also causing catastrophic engine failure are greatly increased.

This is just my .02 from what I've seen and heard. My comments are in reference to your normal, everyday, bolt-on L's. I'm not saying someone can't go out and purposefully build one to run top end, like RUSLOW over on NLOC. I'm just trying to help guys keep their motors in one piece, especially as the temps go down, and the aforementioned cylinder pressures go up.http://www.talonclub.com/forum/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

Sorry 'bout the novel...


True dat... the statement about the temp gauge: stock gauges are set up with a "dead zone", where anything withing a nominal range will cause the gauge to center, no matter what the variation is within that range--this was done because, back in the early days, Fred would bitch about his car not running right because George with the same car down the block was making more power stock and his gauge read higher or lower all the time, and Fred wanted his car fixed by the dealer (totally bogus, but that's how people are). IMHO, if anyone is going to do anything that requires more accurate readings, then the stock gauges should be ditched for mechanical/direct-reading electronic gauges.

I see what you're saying about the temp buildups under extended WOT, too, and that's food for thought, and brings into play Skelton's methodology: build for reliability first, then power. And points up the key failing: the blower. The Heaton just can't deliver the air as it's needed, without compromising the motor itself. And this points up the necessity of getting a screwblower if you want to do more than a few seconds in a straight line. :tu:

Fagheddabout it.. novels are sometimes necessary, despite those that would holler :ron:... very well said... you *are* the man! :bows