2lb vs. 4lb dyno results

[WA 2 FST]

This isn't anything profound, but I thought I'd share the results on my truck, along with some practical Eaton blower tech I feel I have happened upon first-hand...at least as it relates to my specific truck.

With just a 2lb pulley and REM intake, the truck made 376rwhp/440rwtq. The TQ is a little low b/c the dyno operator started the pull at 3500, which is after the TQ peak.

With the 4lb pulley, REM intake, and and LFP heat exchanger (which I believe made NO difference on a day like today), the thing made 393rwhp/482rwtq. This is SAE corrected. Actual #s were 417rwhp/511rwtq. Why couldn't we have raced today?!

I think the power is good for the minor mods. Nothing outstanding, but certainly no worse than average.

I did discover that the Eaton is running out of breath with my combo. With the 2lb pulley (and for stock trucks) peak HP is usually ~5100-5200rpm. Now with the 4lb pulley, peak HP is at 4700-4800rpm. Boost is not falling off (13psi), and the belt is not slipping. If the thing would flow more air, and make peak HP at 5200 still... I'd be at 405+rwhp easily.

I do believe from here the best mod is a KB or Whipple blower. I'm willing to bet peak HP will be back up at 5200rpm, and with the more efficient blower... 50-60rwhp gain running the same 13psi. By the time I spend the $$ on an upper intake plenum, long tubes, high-flow H-pipe w/ cats (to remain legal in my county), etc., I'd still have to turn around and run a 6-8lb lower/swap the upper on the Eaton to flow enough air to make that 60rwhp gain...and the cost would be approaching the KB.

I'm feeling like the limit to block/trans reliability is ~450rwhp and I want to get their the most efficient way possible, and a more efficient blower makes a lot of sense.

[00Bolt]

i say hold off and get Whipple.... mainly cuz I wanna see one :D

[WA 2 FST]

i say hold off and get Whipple.... mainly cuz I wanna see one :D
That may very well be the direction I head.

I'm not in any hurry. The truck runs fantastic right now. I'll be curious to see how it does Saturday.

After that winter will be here, and if I go to the track again it will be in my TT Z06 which I'll need to get down the 1/4 for some shakedown passes.

[Tex Arcana]

i say hold off and get Whipple.... mainly cuz I wanna see one :D

I'm with you on this... since the Whipple kit includes the upper intake, thorttle-body, and blower intake, that alone accounts for the cost of the system itself, and since they engineered it that way, I'd say that combo will work best together. :)

[SonicBlueSVT]

Great results Wess :beer: How did your A/F look? How much timing are you running? You should put up some good times on Saturday. See you there :)

[WA 2 FST]

Chris,

My A/F was 11.7-11.8 across the board. No significant change from the 2lb pulley setup. I did not have to get a different tune. The way I understand a MAF setup... as long as you are not pegging the MAF, or run out of pump, injectors, or supply lines... you should not need constant retuning.

The caveat is that if you're running too much timing for a given static compression ratio, you might have to lower that/retune if you run more boost ... especially if the efficiency of the blower comes into question (meaning air charge temps increase significantly). Another issue is for those who want to eek out every last bit of power potential in their combo... if you do this, and then make an airflow change... you will often have to tweak the tune (timing issues, typically).

But a MAF setup is quite capable of making fuel adjustments when additional air is introduced assuming all the other parameters are in line. Oftentimes they are not.

Honestly, I do not know what my timing is. I do not have any Ford OBD-II scan software... just stuff for the Z06.

[03LightningRocks]

Wes,

I dunno if you give a crap, but I checked the Density Altitude at around 10 this morning. It was at 56'. To give you a comparison of what that means, A few weeks ago I was reading D.A.'s of around 2600'.

According to my weather station, if I would have run my truck on a quarter mile track this morning, I would have run an 11.21 pass on the same combo that I ran an 11.6x pass at a D.A. of 2800' at 75 degrees.

If your truck was being dynoed in this area, you where getting some major H.P. from mother nature. About 4 tenth's worth...LOL.


Rocks:beer:

[03LightningRocks]

Oh...one more thought. I am thinking that an oversized heat exchanger will actually have a bigger impact on a colder day. My thinking has to do with heat transfer. If the air moving over the heat exchanger is 50 degrees, it seems like it would remove more heat than if the air moving over the heat exchanger was 85 degrees. A larger heat exchanger will allow for more passes through the coils. Thus allowing more heat transfer before the fluid circulates back to the inter cooler.


Just some thougts,

Rocks

[03LightningRocks]

LOL.......One more thing:D . Everytime I reread your post, I see something new.

You may want to consider the X pipe for your L. I know the H pipe works well on the car cousins of the L...mustang..ect., but I have been lead to believe, the X pipe creates a better flow velocity than the H pipe on our engines. I wish I new enough about it to give specifics, but the fellows that helped set my truck up in the beginning(superchips, Mike Troyer, Jake Lammotta) all seemed to agree that the Xpipe was the way to go on Lightnings.

[SpeedyBolt]

O.k., I've gotta know. Are those the only mods you have on your truck? Who does your tuning and what tune were you running when you dyno'ed? That is alot of Tq for a 4#'r!!!

[WA 2 FST]

Ron, I realize the air was great! I also realize a forced induction motor that is subject to heat soak can benefit more greatly from good air density than a N/A engine. Along these lines, it is plausible to assume that the SAE correction factor is not _perfect_ for all engine combos. But, its better than nothing... hence the reason I posted my _actual_ HP/TQ readings were 417/511. SAE corrected was 393/482.

But if I'd been racing today, I'd have had 411rwhp at my disposal. :)

Obviously on a really hot day when the heat exchanger cannot cool the charge as well, it will dyno lower...even with a positive SAE correction factor (meaning the actual # would be lower than the corrected #).

But I guess I'm one of the few on here that will disagree that SAE corrected values will vary _wildly_ depending on the day you dyno. The values are not perfect, but there will be not be a huge disparity.



Wes,

I dunno if you give a crap, but I checked the Density Altitude at around 10 this morning. It was at 56'. To give you a comparison of what that means, A few weeks ago I was reading D.A.'s of around 2600'.

According to my weather station, if I would have run my truck on a quarter mile track this morning, I would have run an 11.21 pass on the same combo that I ran an 11.6x pass at a D.A. of 2800' at 75 degrees.

If your truck was being dynoed in this area, you where getting some major H.P. from mother nature. About 4 tenth's worth...LOL.


Rocks:beer:

[WA 2 FST]

Except that the cooling ability of the heat exchanger is directly related to the airflow going around/through it. At 0mph, with no fan blowing on it (dyno is above ground), and a 400cfm puller fan on it... its not moving a lot of air across the coils.

However, I only made one pull b/c I wasn't there to do any tuning. Thus, I don't believe the aftermarket H/E had any more benefit on this one dyno pull than the stocker. On the street, its a different ballgame, and I agree with your thoughts below in the real world.


Oh...one more thought. I am thinking that an oversized heat exchanger will actually have a bigger impact on a colder day. My thinking has to do with heat transfer. If the air moving over the heat exchanger is 50 degrees, it seems like it would remove more heat than if the air moving over the heat exchanger was 85 degrees. A larger heat exchanger will allow for more passes through the coils. Thus allowing more heat transfer before the fluid circulates back to the inter cooler.


Just some thougts,

Rocks

[WA 2 FST]

O.k., I've gotta know. Are those the only mods you have on your truck? Who does your tuning and what tune were you running when you dyno'ed? That is alot of Tq for a 4#'r!!!
Complete engine/power-making mod list:

4# lower pulley
NGK TR6 plugs
LFP heat exchanger
Magnaflow cat-back
REM cold air intake
SCT 9100 by Mike Troyer

That's it. Other mods include REM oil seperator, FTVB, and complete Roush suspension kit.

My SCT has 3 tunes... #1 is 93 octane, high speed runs. #2 is 93 octane, drag-racing, no sustained WOT runs in OD. This is the one I am running now and the only one I've ever used on the dyno. #3 is for 100 octane. Haven't tried that yet.

[SpeedyBolt]

WOW :eek2: that is awsome! What does the REM CAI include? Is it just a connical filter or does it have a bigger MAF tube like the C&L does? That Tq is great. It's up there with 6# numbers! Doesn't that Magnaflow cat-back have a x-pipe actually built in the muffler?

[WA 2 FST]

The REM intake is the same one that Terry/Performance Research sells. It's just a conical filter with a support bracket. Very simple. There is a small tube that bolts in front of the MAF, but it doesn't appear to be abnormally large as far as its inside diameter.

The Magnaflow cat-back I have is the single muffler (not the dual muffler which is the loud version). I honestly am not sure if it has some sort of X-pipe/pulse equalization device inside it.

[02BOLT]

Wes,

It sounds like you've got her pretty well dialed in. It'd be cool to see the numbers on the "100 octane" tune. I'd imagine they'd easily have eclipsed the 400 RWHP barrier. Nice numbers BTW...
Looking forward to shooting the breeze with you on Saturday...:beer:

[my2002lightning]

Wes,

When I get my HP laptop back from HP Tech-Support along with the AutoTap Enhanced software on it, we can throw it on your L and see what your timing reads. I read mine recently while driving around, along with a ton more readings.:tu:

Ronald


Chris,

My A/F was 11.7-11.8 across the board. No significant change from the 2lb pulley setup. I did not have to get a different tune. The way I understand a MAF setup... as long as you are not pegging the MAF, or run out of pump, injectors, or supply lines... you should not need constant retuning.

The caveat is that if you're running too much timing for a given static compression ratio, you might have to lower that/retune if you run more boost ... especially if the efficiency of the blower comes into question (meaning air charge temps increase significantly). Another issue is for those who want to eek out every last bit of power potential in their combo... if you do this, and then make an airflow change... you will often have to tweak the tune (timing issues, typically).

But a MAF setup is quite capable of making fuel adjustments when additional air is introduced assuming all the other parameters are in line. Oftentimes they are not.

Honestly, I do not know what my timing is. I do not have any Ford OBD-II scan software... just stuff for the Z06.

[WA 2 FST]

The pleasure will be all mine, Rob. Hopefully the weather will hold off!

I agree... seems sorted out and solid #s for the mods I have. I will probably leave it as is over the winter before deciding which route to go with an aftermarket blower. Hopefully by then the Whipple will at least be an option.

Sorry you're not going to get to see the HRE's on the truck this time. :( They still have not shipped yet. Hopefully next week.

[03LightningRocks]

Wes,

I hope you didn't think my post was meant to take away from your great dyno numbers. I was just sharing some additional info with you that I just happened to have gotten by chance this morning. I normally don't take these readings every day, I was working on my truck and saw my weather station laying behind my seat, so I got curious about how quick one could run at the track today.

I was agreeing with you that your truck would have run a real nice pass today....:beer: .


Rocks

[WA 2 FST]

Ron,

We were in agreement all the way around. You're right... the air was just stupid for N. Texas. 56' DA is nuts for around here. Easily worth 4-5 tenths for a truck that runs as strong as yours. Maybe we'll get lucky on Sat, and we'll have 1) sun to heat the track and 2) DA's in the 0-100' range!

I just used the post as an opportunity to explain my own feelings regarding SAE correction factors that these popular dynos use. Some people feel that if you dyno in the summer your SAE readings will be a lot lower than if you dyno in the winter. My years of experience tells me otherwise, but I realize some people here would disagree with me.

[SpeedyBolt]

Has anybody ever done dyno test to see if the LFP heat x-changer actually makes any power or not. I know it supposed to just help cool the IC fluid more but doen't it make since that you would see just a little more power?

[WA 2 FST]

On a stock motor, I don't think it would do squat.

I'm far from an expert on thermodynamics, but as you increase heat soak and inlet air temps, air density (oxygen quality of the air) goes down.

When you overspin the blower to make more boost, the compressed air will be hotter as it hits the intercooler. Keeping the I/C fluid at a lower temp will help dissipate the extra heat created by the blower spinning faster than stock. On a stock engine, it might lower the IAT a little, but not enough to make a big difference.

There is no way to accurately simulate the intercooling effect on a dyno, unless you have a fan blowing across it that can simulate real driving conditions (50-70+mph). This is the case whether your stock or modified, using the stock H/E or an aftermarket one.

I only made one pull, so my educated guess says that for that one pull the stock H/E would have done just as good of a job as the LFP one. There was relatively no time to build up any excess heat that the H/E would be able to remove. IOW, the I/C coolant temp never got really hot. This is a good thing, of course.

What the LFP H/E _will_ do is allow for more consistency on the street and at the strip b/c the I/C coolant temps will be better regulated than with the stock H/E. I'm not sure it would make a difference in a full 1/4 mile run, but if your'e hot-lapping it or sitting in traffic, it will help.

[02BOLT]

Has anybody ever done dyno test to see if the LFP heat x-changer actually makes any power or not. I know it supposed to just help cool the IC fluid more but doen't it make since that you would see just a little more power?
It's hard to see any gains from a larger heat exchanger on the dyno due to the fact that the truck is stationary, and any fans blowing across it during a pull would not come close to replicating the air that moves across the fins while the truck is at speed.

Edit: ^^^What he said^^^.......I went to post this prior to Wes's response.........and would agree with his assessment 100%.

[03LightningRocks]

What the LFP H/E _will_ do is allow for more consistency on the street and at the strip b/c the I/C coolant temps will be better regulated than with the stock H/E. I'm not sure it would make a difference in a full 1/4 mile run, but if your'e hot-lapping it or sitting in traffic, it will help.

This is pretty much where I found it beneficial also. The larger exchanger is mostly a consistency mod in my opinion. I really don't remember seeing at E.T. improvement. If there was one it was small.

The cooling mods help the most when you start getting nuts with boost and H.P. I put it in to help stave off detonation from the excessive heat of compression caused by running 16-18 lbs of boost through the stock heaton.

[SpeedyBolt]

Hmm, I was just curious. I put one on my truck this past weekend.

My thinking on it was even if the truck is stationary, the larger capacity(sp) and the increased "fins per inch" would help dissapate heat even though your not moving.

[WA 2 FST]

Hmm, I was just curious. I put one on my truck this past weekend.

My thinking on it was even if the truck is stationary, the larger capacity(sp) and the increased "fins per inch" would help dissapate heat even though your not moving.
I agree 100% if we're talking about a significant amount of time (real world driving). For one dyno pull where the truck was cooled 35 minutes before the run... I just don't see it doing anything.

But you're absolutely right. More coolant capacity and more airflow across the fins (due to just having more fins, if nothing else) is beneficial where it matters... in the real world.

[03LightningRocks]

My thinking on it was even if the truck is stationary, the larger capacity(sp) and the increased "fins per inch" would help dissapate heat even though your not moving.You are correct. The increased surface area does dissapate heat better. If the question is, would you see a H.P. improvement on the dyno?, I would have to say I doubt it. If the question is, would I see lower temps after the intercooler? I would say yes...but sitting still a the dyno...not by alot. Moving down the track or highway...you will see lower temps after the intercooler...but since I haven't actually taken temps before the heat exchanger...I'd be guessing to say how much.


LMAO..............:rll: . I just saw the post by wes......I'll quit posting here now...:beer:

[L8 APEX]

I'll give you a real world example of needing a larger xchanger. Road racing my truck I would get detonation after 15-20 minutes of running. The IC fluid was heating up faster than the xchanger could dump it off. Once I upgraded the Xchanger to the Fluidyne (the best), I could run wide open and never overheat the fluid. I remember one time pulling over with the stock xchanger and removing the IC cap and it was steaming hotknana . All of that was with a 2# pulley in 85-90 degree weather.

[Tex Arcana]

The REM intake is the same one that Terry/Performance Research sells. It's just a conical filter with a support bracket. Very simple. There is a small tube that bolts in front of the MAF, but it doesn't appear to be abnormally large as far as its inside diameter.

The Magnaflow cat-back I have is the single muffler (not the dual muffler which is the loud version). I honestly am not sure if it has some sort of X-pipe/pulse equalization device inside it.

Yeh, it's got in essence a crossover built-in, which is one reason it's quieter than a standard dual-muffler/no crossover setup (yours sounds like what I have). H- and X- pipes help reduce backpressure, and properly designed and installed help with scavenging as well.

[Tex Arcana]

Wes,

When I get my HP laptop back from HP Tech-Support along with the AutoTap Enhanced software on it, we can throw it on your L and see what your timing reads. I read mine recently while driving around, along with a ton more readings.:tu:

Ronald

Ronald, you *really* need to put a plastic cover on that keyboard... and is it really safe for you to try to drive and -ahem- "surf" your ECU while driving??? :evil:

[Tex Arcana]

It's hard to see any gains from a larger heat exchanger on the dyno due to the fact that the truck is stationary, and any fans blowing across it during a pull would not come close to replicating the air that moves across the fins while the truck is at speed.

Edit: ^^^What he said^^^.......I went to post this prior to Wes's response.........and would agree with his assessment 100%.

What comes in even more useful, besides the additional cooling--and Terry's observation about what happens on the road-course, is with the larger HE, most people also put in the pump/fan bypass switches, so the circuit can be running and cooling while the engine is off, so the intercooler fluid doesn't heat-soak, which *can* be beneficial to the dyno, the strip, and the track. On the street, the additional capacity is beneficial for those low-speed crawls in traffic in warmer temps, so when you *do* get on it, like Rocks and his insane setup, you minimize the possibility of detonation.

What this mod *really* is, is a reliability mod... as Terry said, inder *consistent* lapping in warmer temps, the fluid circuit overloads and loses effectiveness, mainly because the external H/E is smaller physically than the internal one. So putting in the mod, and the switches and fans, can only help you, tho never give you more power unless you do like Ken and put in an icebox for the fluid, and even that is short-term only.

[Tex Arcana]

Oh...one more thought. I am thinking that an oversized heat exchanger will actually have a bigger impact on a colder day. My thinking has to do with heat transfer. If the air moving over the heat exchanger is 50 degrees, it seems like it would remove more heat than if the air moving over the heat exchanger was 85 degrees. A larger heat exchanger will allow for more passes through the coils. Thus allowing more heat transfer before the fluid circulates back to the inter cooler.


Just some thougts,

Rocks

Correct: but remember that it can NEVER get below ambient temps, unless you use an ice box. :tu: