KB on Gen 1

[Mark #2]

http://www.nloc.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87065

[Ivanhoe_Farms]

Lets see, if I understood the string, don't use an S-trim, don't use a blowzilla, Don't even consider a paxton, so what is left?:o

[WA 2 FST]

Actually an efficient centrifugal works incredibly well on the torquey 351W engine. I will always be partial to the Vortechs b/c I've had them on no less than 3 of my vehicles and they worked flawlessly.

[Flats Man]

I saw that thread at NLOC but for what I am doing, I think the Kenne Belle will be just fine. I may go with the Snow Performance Water Injection if I go for a lot of boost! I agree that the centrificals are really great! I am running a Procharger D1SC on the 4.6L and it really comes off the line very well and gets Mo Bad the faster I go! We are driving the Gen1 to Home Depot and using it as a truck but I think it will hold its own at the track as well. My first choice was to Turbo the truck but I just could not hang out $5000 for a kit and take a chance that the company might not be there 5 months down the road. I think the truck with out any blower and the Calvert motor, would be close to where it is right now with the Powerdyne. Anyway, it will be different. I don't recall that there were any Gen1's at Lightning Fest that had a Kenne Bell. Maybe there is a reason for that! lol

[WA 2 FST]

I'd love to find a '94-95 in excel condition and bolt on a centrifugal blower. Basically have my old '94 back. :( I pulled everything off of it and sold it and bought a '96 Cobra... good car, but all these years later, I don't miss it at all...but I do miss that truck.

I agree... with the Calvert motor and good heads, it will run very well! Calvert builds great motors and takes pride in his work. He can just be a little slow, but that's to be said about 99% of all machine shops/engine builders out there.

[Flats Man]

Calvert is stroking it to 408 and we are running a Downs B41 cam on Edelbrock 2.02 heads and having it all port matched to the blower and exhaust. The Exhaust is a Pickrel 1 3/4 longtube system. Of course new springs as the cam is pretty high lift on the exhaust side! It should have some torque!
Come on Wes! Come over to the dark side! Get youself a Gen1 lol

[WA 2 FST]

That will be sweet, Fred. You're right...408", decent cam, long tube headers... I predict high-12s no problem. What kind of rpm is it going to turn?

[Flats Man]

I don't think we will be winding it up a lot! Right now the truck shifts at 5000 so we will start there. I think I will probably have to sump the back tank and do some fuel upgrades if it winds too high. Dennis already has a rear tank sitting out to work with. I am trying to not get too crazy with this thing like I did on the F150!
Where do you think it sould shift at?

[WA 2 FST]

As you're well aware, shift points should be dependent on the head/cam combo. That's why you never want too much cam for what the heads can flow.

What are the specs on that camshaft?

The GT-40 intake is good to ~5600+ or so on a naturally aspirated 351W (6200+ on a 302). Since it will have nearly 60 cubes more than that, the intake will now support less rpm (it will max out airflow sooner with the larger motor). I'd say probably 5200. That's not a bad thing, assuming the cam isn't too large. Since the intake is ported, that will bump up its potential a bit, too.

Now, some of this gets thrown out once you bolt on the blower. Running an S-trim blower, everyone told me that the GT-40 intake I had (ported lower) would not support anywhere near the power I ended up making (615rwhp @ 5900rpm with 331 cubes) in my Mustang. The great thing was that with that long-runner intake, the centrifugal made awesome low, mid-range TQ (over 400rwtq by 2700rpm...which is pretty darn good for 331") and still carried the power way on up there. I shifted at 6300 where the HP started falling off to ~585. Average power under the curve was excellent for a centrifugally blown application.

The Vortech A-trim I had on my fairly stock '94 L (351W, shorty headers, stock intake, stock heads, 1.7 rockers) made a max of 8psi and it pulled to 5400 easily. It wasn't fast or anything by today's standards, but my point is that an efficient blower can make up for airflow issues of an intake in the upper rpms. The blower becomes your intake. :)

I am not up on the KB blowers for the 351, so I don't know what kind of airflow it can produce with that big 408 motor. I will just assume that it will reach its efficient flow limits ~5000-5200rpm as well... so you're probably going to be really close to where you want to be shifting at 5000. The dyno will tell. :)

[Flats Man]

Well, I was wanting a pretty lumpy idle on this motor just for the fun at street lights when people look over after hearing the idle! The current cam is a Crane but I don't know what the spec are. You can tell it has a cam though. The new cam may be a little big for my set-up but it should sound pretty mean at the light! The specs are: Intake & Exhaust, Duration @ .050 228-236; Lobe seperation 112; Gross Lift 534-564; Lobe Center Line 108-110! This cam would not work very well in a Speed Density set up but I am running a ProM Mass Air. I am not really sure if I will be able to run this set up or if I will need a tweecer or something else that I know nothing about. I figure I will try to get Raymond B involved if I hit a snag! I saw a dyno of a Lightning with the 408 and Kenne Bell and it was making good power up to about 5000 and then just kind of flattened out. That is where the centrifical would start to shine. Thanks for all the info in your posts, I am learning!

[WA 2 FST]

That cam will be fine for a big-inch 408 motor. It will still be lopey enough to know it has a cam but that will be as much due to the relatively low compression I assume you'll be running, as much as anything else. 112 LSA is fine and the duration is not _that_ big. My 331 had a 224/232 cam, 112 LSA and with only 8.8:1 CR it loped pretty hard. But it was a steady idle at 800rpm. I kept it low just so it would rumble more. If I'd idled it up to ~950 or so, it would have been really smooth.

So relatively speaking the cam you have will be smaller than the on I ran in my Mustang (Anderson B4).

I think you made a good choice on cam selection. You will still probably need a custom tune via TwEECer, EEC-Tuner or chip but it shouldn't be too bad to get worked out so it runs perfectly. I'm betting it will fire and run ok without a custom tune, as long as the idle is turned up high enough (900+rpm).

[Flats Man]

Thanks for all the info! Me and Dennis are meeting with Calvert on Monday morning to go over the motor specs. I was thinking of going with pistons that would give me around 8.5 to 1 but I am not real sure what is available. 8.8 sounds pretty good to me too! Any guess as to HP and Torque with this thing proberly tuned? Oh and by the way, the Cam is an Anderson Motor Sport B41 new in a box!

[WA 2 FST]

This is a hard guess for me b/c I have no hands-on experience with the KB in this application. The blower is going to be the deciding factor.

If it was a T-trim Vortech, I'd say 650rwtq @ ~4200rpm, 675-700rwhp @ 5500rpm, trying to take into account the E4OD trans which sucks more power than a manual tranny.

The KB will bring the TQ on sooner, but it will also peak earlier, so on paper the #s will not be as high. Assuming peak TQ is ~3000-3400rpm, I'd guess 575rwtq and hopefully ~500-525rwhp at 5200.

How much boost will that blower allow you to run with a motor that size?

[Flats Man]

I was thinking 500 RWHP and had not a clue on torque! I know that this Kenne Bell non intercooled, looses a lot of efficiency at the higher boost levels so I am planning to run between 8 -10 lbs. I think the blower will fill up that big motor at that level, pretty efficiently. Anyway, I like your "guesses!" You don't know where I can get my hands on a 69-72 351 block do you?

[WA 2 FST]

No clue on the vintage 351W blocks. I know they are stronger, so they're always a good find. What about the 351 Sportsman block? Those are supposed to be pretty stout, too, from what I understand.

[Flats Man]

I have a Lightning short block from Dennis that I am going to use if I don't find a 69-72 block. I am looking for a block that starts with C9,D0,D1,or D2. DSS sells a Level 10 block for $725 but I think the standard Lightning block will be OK for what we are doing! I am just trying to prevent some down time on the truck by leaving it running until Terry is ready to install everything!
Here is the exhaust that we ordered yesterday! http://www.nloc.net/gallery/album.php?id=543 (http://www.nloc.net/gallery/album.php?id=543)

[WA 2 FST]

The exhaust looks great!!

I would stay away from DSS at all costs. Just my $.02.

[Flats Man]

I may be looking for a larger set of heads for our Gen1 project! I would go for the AFR 225 or a set of Victor Jr's. I am looking for big Valves but the most important thing is a large cc chamber. The AFR's are 58cc and the minimum that I can deal with is 63cc's. I currently have a set of 63 cc Cobra R heads that I am working with. If anyone has any leads locally, just PM me! Thanks!!

[02BOLT]

That's the same exhaust that we put on my truck(except my LT's are 1 5/8"). It's a nice, quality system. All of the piping is 3" mandrel bent. Sounds pretty tough too. I'll bring the truck to next month's meeting. If Dennis is there is there, he can give you his impressions as to how it sounds.

Later...

[Flats Man]

I would have gone with the 1 5/8 tubes too except that with a blown 408 cubic inches, I need to get all that exhaust out! lol I like how the Pickrel Exhaust doesn't over run the muffler and then do an S-bend like the Basani system does. We go from the muffler right out in front of the rear tire! Did you get the Magnaflow system with the internal cross pipe? Did you have to modify your drive shaft loop? I don't think my exhaust system will fit the current loop that I have installed!

[02BOLT]

Yes, my system has the big maggy with the integrated "X" pipe in the muffler. I don't have a DS loop as of yet, so I don't know about clearance issues with the exhaust as of yet.
I will say, that once the system is installed, that sucker is rigid! We set the tips up so that they are sucked up to within an inch of the body. It looks sharp and clean IMO. I think you'll like it.