Keith Craft Motorsports = Ripoff!!!

[SonicBlueSVT]

I'm not one to bash upon shops, (especially since I use to work there), but what happened today went a little to overboard. Actually more like :bs

I went in this morning to have them uninstall my Comp.Eng. Traction Bars. So it took the tech exactly 1hr to take them off which is what I was expecting. So then I ask him what do I owe him and he actually had the nerve to say $250 :eek: I sat there for a sec. and said how much again and again is was $250. I was in shock I didn't know what to think at this point. He then said, "Well since we charged $400 to install them ($100 overpriced), I'm gonna charge half of that to take them off". At that time I was like WTF and was :flaming: What total bs.

I go up to the front of the shop for a sec to gather my thoughts and then go back out there and tell him what ever happened to the $75hr rate that has always been in place and he then says he will drop the price down to $200 and that's it. I still couldn't believe it. Again talk about total :bs

Am I wrong in some way here or is paying someone $200 for 1hr worth of work just a tad like getting robbed (screwed, etc...)? We didn't have a set install price to begin with, but it's the principle of the deal. One hour of work should equal one hour of pay, end of story. Seeing how the guy use to work at a dealership most of his life he is still going by what the book says and he's gonna find out real fast that that wont cut it in this game.

So stay away from KEITH CRAFT MOTORSPORTS. Now I will say that Mike and Mark who work up front at both awesome and good friends, but that is the one good thing going for that store.

Rant mode off! :)

[L8 APEX]

Always negotiate the price before the work is done. Often a good tech will learn techniques over time that make his job faster and easier. The job should still pay whatever the 'standard' book time is on the job. A good tech shouldn't be punished financialy for doing his job faster than book. That is a general statement not necissarily applicable to your situation. He did charge half for the uninstallation which is fair comparitively.

[Silver_2000]

Terrys comments about book time aside. ANYONE besides a Dr or Lawyer ( not that they deserve it either - but they get awat with it ) that charges $250 for an hours work isnt interested in yoiur business and the cool thing is that since this site is Heavily indexed by the top search engines ... The actions of the past will be around for future potential customers to see.

Reminds me of the guy who wanted $125 an hour to dig a french drain ... Im sorry but Im not going to pay anyone $125 an hour to work a shovel... Nope Not going to happen ....

[WA 2 FST]

Chris,

I didn't know you left KC, but now that you have... I'm going to have at it. I am not going to bash them personally b/c I've never dealt with them...except I did meet Keith one time down at a FFW Houston event about a decade ago... I was talking with him about doing my TFS Street Heat heads, he didn't give me a lot of time, so I went with Bennett Racing.

Anyway, back to topic. I have 3 Mustang road-race friends who have bought KC engines and installed them in their cars. All 3 had premature failures, and no these weren't 4-2 downshift/over-revving problems, either.

I'd certainly never buy a crate motor from them.

-Wes

[SonicBlueSVT]

I know I should have had at least received a quote on paper, but the salesman and myself believed that it would take aprx. an hour and be $75, but what's done is done. I just find it rediculous to pay that much for 1hr worth of work. It's pretty much saying that if it cost me $10k to install a motor and it took 1hr to take it out then I would get charged $5k then to remove it.

I hear you Wess. Keith Craft has had a few hit and misses here and there as does every shop, but overall I reguard him as a great engine builder. Now if any of the motors were put together by the shop in plano then I could really understand :rolleyes: I think John George may have had some problems or something.

[WA 2 FST]

Let me just say they're batting .000 and its not just one customer.

[Tex Arcana]

Sorry to hear it, but you got bent over without the benefit of lube. :mad:

If you put it on your credit card, maybe you can challenge the validity of the charge, if only to inconvenience them for the screwing. :evil:

[03LightningRocks]

I know I should have had at least received a quote on paper, but the salesman and myself believed that it would take aprx. an hour and be $75, but what's done is done. I just find it rediculous to pay that much for 1hr worth of work. It's pretty much saying that if it cost me $10k to install a motor and it took 1hr to take it out then I would get charged $5k then to remove it.




Bad example. It costs around 1500 to change out a motor, or 750 out...750 in. Flat rate on this one...no matter how long it takes.

Something some of you folks may want to consider. It costs crap loads of money to have a shop available for customers. You have phones, insurance, rent, taxes...advertising....ect.

The guy you talked to out front has to get paid to be there for you to talk to. Who pays him???

The service business is very high overhead. Terry brought up a real good point. Would you feel better if they had some ass-hat do the work who takes 3 hours instead of one.

I would really like to sit with some of you at your places of business to figure out if the end user of your product/service is getting screwed.

I don't know squawt about Keith Kraft or what the flat rate charges are. But I bet out of that 250 bucks, they will be lucky to bring 15% of it to the bottom line come tax time.

It's not like it's all profit because it's labor only. Think about how much some of you make to sit on your butts in some cubey all day and punch buttons on a computer. Why would that be more deserving of a good living than a mechanic deserves???

No offense inteaded to anyone here. I believe everyone should make as much as they can. Including tradesmen.

[WA 2 FST]

I would really like to sit with some of you at your places of business to figure out if the end user of your product/service is getting screwed.



I understand your point regarding overhead, etc.

However, I know 3 local friends (not just "I heard this from so-and-so) who have spent a _lot_ of $ for high-quality motors (not stock rebuild junk) from this company and every motor failed. One had them rebuild it again...he had to haul it up to Ark. They didn't warranty it. He was screwed, but it was there, so he had them re-do it. It didn't last long, either.

If it was just 1 of them and the guy was an idiot who revved it to 8k rpm, I would not have chimed in with my piece.

I'm trying to give a healthy warning. Find someone else to build your Ford motor.

[Tex Arcana]

Bad example. It costs around 1500 to change out a motor, or 750 out...750 in. Flat rate on this one...no matter how long it takes.

Something some of you folks may want to consider. It costs crap loads of money to have a shop available for customers. You have phones, insurance, rent, taxes...advertising....ect.

The guy you talked to out front has to get paid to be there for you to talk to. Who pays him???

The service business is very high overhead. Terry brought up a real good point. Would you feel better if they had some ass-hat do the work who takes 3 hours instead of one.

I would really like to sit with some of you at your places of business to figure out if the end user of your product/service is getting screwed.

I don't know squawt about Keith Kraft or what the flat rate charges are. But I bet out of that 250 bucks, they will be lucky to bring 15% of it to the bottom line come tax time.

It's not like it's all profit because it's labor only. Think about how much some of you make to sit on your butts in some cubey all day and punch buttons on a computer. Why would that be more deserving of a good living than a mechanic deserves???

No offense inteaded to anyone here. I believe everyone should make as much as they can. Including tradesmen.


Good point, but I understand Chris' point as well, tho he shoud've gotten a real quote first, at which point he'd tell 'em to take a hike and go elsewhere. Fact is, that job was dead easy, and he shoudln't have been charged that much for the removal, esp. since they got the lion's share of his money on the install.

If he had taken it to Bankston Ford (for instance--and I know this for a fact), they'd've charged him the going dealer hourly rate, and he'd've paid at most an hour and a half, or $112. And you know as well as I do they don't do ANYTHING for free.

[Tex Arcana]

I understand your point regarding overhead, etc.

However, I know 3 local friends (not just "I heard this from so-and-so) who have spent a _lot_ of $ for high-quality motors (not stock rebuild junk) from this company and every motor failed. One had them rebuild it again...he had to haul it up to Ark. They didn't warranty it. He was screwed, but it was there, so he had them re-do it. It didn't last long, either.

If it was just 1 of them and the guy was an idiot who revved it to 8k rpm, I would not have chimed in with my piece.

I'm trying to give a healthy warning. Find someone else to build your Ford motor.

Listen to this man, he knows what he's talking about. :tu:

[00Bolt]

Something some of you folks may want to consider. It costs crap loads of money to have a shop available for customers. You have phones, insurance, rent, taxes...advertising....ect.


unfortunetaly the list does not stop here, its like the energizer bunny... keeps going and going ....................

and then something as simple as a "business" phone line with NO extras (caller id, etc) cost like $120 instead of $30 or whatever it is for homes... :bs

i dont know much about car mechanic work, $250 per hour seems kinda high for just unbolting some tbars... but im with Ron... he aint making $250 trust me

[Tex Arcana]

unfortunetaly the list does not stop here, its like the energizer bunny... keeps going and going ....................

and then something as simple as a "business" phone line with NO extras (caller id, etc) cost like $120 instead of $30 or whatever it is for homes... :bs

i dont know much about car mechanic work, $250 per hour seems kinda high for just unbolting some tbars... but im with Ron... he aint making $250 trust me

Of course, given that bunch, the mechanic ain't making more than $10 an hour, either, so where's the rest going?

I think chris is more right than y'all know on this one.

[03LightningRocks]

Wes...I hear you. I want to make it clear, I AM NOT defending the work Keith Kraft does. I really have never done business with them, and wouldn't based on the feed back from you and others on their workmanship.

I am simply making a general point about what it costs to have any kind of work done for you.

I get to hear folks act like they think my guys deserve less than them at times. It kills me to hear folks that make six figures a year for producing nothing, proclaim that an hours work from a working man is worth less than they are.

Again...I am not defending Keith Krafts work...just their right to charge enough to pay the bills and make a profit. Like I said...that 250 bucks boils down to about 40 bucks in profit...if they are lucky. If computer companies deserve 20% net margins...tradesmen sure as hell do.

[03LightningRocks]

I just read Tex's post...LMAO...talk about not having a clue!!! People at fast food jonts make 10 bucks an hour. Good mechanics, electricians and HVAC techs make 50 to 100K a year. And damn well deserve it.

[03LightningRocks]

Scott.................:tu: . A man who knows...:cool:

[Tex Arcana]

Wes...I hear you. I want to make it clear, I AM NOT defending the work Keith Kraft does. I really have never done business with them, and wouldn't based on the feed back from you and others on their workmanship.

I am simply making a general point about what it costs to have any kind of work done for you.

I get to hear folks act like they think my guys deserve less than them at times. It kills me to hear folks that make six figures a year for producing nothing, proclaim that an hours work from a working man is worth less than they are.

Again...I am not defending Keith Krafts work...just their right to charge enough to pay the bills and make a profit. Like I said...that 250 bucks boils down to about 40 bucks in profit...if they are lucky. If computer companies deserve 20% net margins...tradesmen sure as hell do.


I'm with you, the people doing the REAL work deserve a bigger cut of the pie.

Case in point: the movers that moved us to McKinney. Four guys, two trucks, 11 hours of work. Those boys worked their hearts out and worked hard to do the job right, and they weren't getting diddly squat of the $1200 it cost, so we slipped 'em $100 apiece for what amounts to a tip, becasue they damned well deserved it.

[Tex Arcana]

I just read Tex's post...LMAO...talk about not having a clue!!! People at fast food jonts make 10 bucks an hour. Good mechanics, electricians and HVAC techs make 50 to 100K a year. And damn well deserve it.
Dude, I do know better... what I'm telling you is that Keith Kraft do'nt pay dick (the guy that set up the stinkin' store didn't even get paid for the 8 months he put into it!!). They are a bunch of arrogant cheapasses, they sell inferior product, and the only people making money are Keith and the other guy that runs the store like his own personal candy store. And I'll bet his "mechanics" are nothing more than a bunch of kids making at most $15 an hour with no real training--hell, I doubt they have one true professional mechanic there.

[00Bolt]

Scott.................:tu: . A man who knows...:cool:


wow i got a thumbs up from ron... i need to save this and use it as my wallpaper :D

[Tex Arcana]

wow i got a thumbs up from ron... i need to save this and use it as my wallpaper :D
Watch it, he might mean he wants to shove it up your nose or somoewhere else...:eek2:

[03LightningRocks]

Dude, I do know better... what I'm telling you is that Keith Kraft do'nt pay dick (the guy that set up the stinkin' store didn't even get paid for the 8 months he put into it!!). They are a bunch of arrogant cheapasses, they sell inferior product, and the only people making money are Keith and the other guy that runs the store like his own personal candy store. And I'll bet his "mechanics" are nothing more than a bunch of kids making at most $15 an hour with no real training--hell, I doubt they have one true professional mechanic there.

Well, if that is truly the case...that place sucks....LOL. But I want to make sure everyone get's it. Trying to boil down a cost, to have a company perform a service for you, based on what you think the guy deserves to make an hour is pure Bull Sh!t. Things don't work that way at the mega companies for all the College grads, and they don't work that way for those of us that chose a trade.

Sometimes I think the problems with issues like this start in the first year of college. The school builds a box around the students by telling them that you have to go to college or your not going to amount to sh!t. So folks sometimes come out of school thinking they are somehow more worthy of a good living than those of us that didn't. The whole concept of boxing people in just pisses me the fock off. Hold on a minute, I think I am going to go two doors down and slap the surgeon that spent 8 years of schooling to live in the same neighborhood as a lowly tradesman....LMAO.

[Tex Arcana]

Well, if that is truly the case...that place sucks....LOL. But I want to make sure everyone get's it. Trying to boil down a cost, to have a company perform a service for you, based on what you think the guy deserves to make an hour is pure Bull Sh!t. Things don't work that way at the mega companies for all the College grads, and they don't work that way for those of us that chose a trade.

Sometimes I think the problems with issues like this start in the first year of college. The school builds a box around the students by telling them that you have to go to college or your not going to amount to sh!t. So folks sometimes come out of school thinking they are somehow more worthy of a good living than those of us that didn't. The whole concept of boxing people in just pisses me the fock off. Hold on a minute, I think I am going to go two doors down and slap the surgeon that spent 8 years of schooling to live in the same neighborhood as a lowly tradesman....LMAO.


Then you konw what the real problem is: the bastards that lie, cheat, steal, and (sometimes) kill their way to the top, and suck all the cash out of the companies (like Bill Ford who did nothing but sit on his ass and get an $11billion bonus)

I konw what you're talking about: the wife is runinng a bookstore on a shoestring budget, and I work for free. :eek2:

[03LightningRocks]

I konw what you're talking about: the wife is runinng a bookstore on a shoestring budget, and I work for free. :eek2:


Then hopefully you get the point I am making. Screw Keith Kraft...OK...They suck. What set me off is I read a few comments about what the work is valued at based on nothing more than how long it took to do it.

Case in point. Some ass-hat comes into your wifes book store. He asks you for a particular book. You get it for him and he goes to check out. "That will be 44.95 Sir". He says..."What the Fock...you only spent five seconds getting it for me and paper can't be more than 3 bucks. Heck I know all about it, I have a printer at home. Who do you think you are charging that much for paper,ink and a binder?" You would probably show him the door.

[Showtime]

.

[dboat]

I am thinking that I dont like the executive bashing going on here.. although I do know how hard my staff and managers work and I sure dont want to have to do that work again.. but the place wouldnt run without them, so God Bless those folks that "work" for a living,,,
Dana

[03LightningRocks]

I am thinking that I dont like the executive bashing going on here..

Executive Bashing??????????? WTF. I don't remember seeing a post in this thread suggesting executives should take less money if they happen to be able to get in an extra round of golf on Friday. But if an hourly hack happens to get done quicker, everyone wants a piece out of his ass.

The thread is actually suppose to bash Keith Kraft...they suck, by the way.

Rocks

[dboat]

Then you konw what the real problem is: the bastards that lie, cheat, steal, and (sometimes) kill their way to the top, and suck all the cash out of the companies (like Bill Ford who did nothing but sit on his ass and get an $11billion bonus)




This post and then another on another thread..

Hey, but I can take it.. heck I do all the time...
:evil

[03LightningRocks]

This post and then another on another thread..

Hey, but I can take it.. heck I do all the time...
:evil


LOL........I stand corrected:eek: . I usually only read the first five words of Tex's posts.....at this point I start thinking of mean sh!t to say, so I stop:rll: .


J/K Tex.....no I wasn't...OK I was....well, maybe not.;)



Rocks:beer:

[dboat]

Thanks Rocks :beer:

I posted in the other thread that folks dont know what Bill Ford does and having been a CEO and having the responsibilities of one are a lot more than one knows or understands until they walk a mile in their shoes. This guy gets to hear from all kinds of stockholders about their stock price and what he has to do to fix the problem. He gets to hear what a dumbass he is from all kinds of Wall Street analysts that dont know anything about really running a business. Believe me, I know what that kind of stress is.. I have made doctors literally millions of dollars but its always a "what have you done for me lately" kind of attitude..
So I know how it is... I also know that I would never have achieved any kind of success if it wasnt for the efforts of all of the folks that I work with whether they are clerks, supervisors or managers. Everyone contributes.. well almost everyone, we are excluding Tex arent we? :evil
Dana

[03LightningRocks]

Thanks Rocks :beer:

SNIP........I also know that I would never have achieved any kind of success if it wasnt for the efforts of all of the folks that I work with whether they are clerks, supervisors or managers. Everyone contributes.. well almost everyone, we are excluding Tex arent we? :evil
Dana


I couldn't have said better myself. Even the part about Tex....:D .

[Tex Arcana]

Then hopefully you get the point I am making. Screw Keith Kraft...OK...They suck. What set me off is I read a few comments about what the work is valued at based on nothing more than how long it took to do it.

Case in point. Some ass-hat comes into your wifes book store. He asks you for a particular book. You get it for him and he goes to check out. "That will be 44.95 Sir". He says..."What the Fock...you only spent five seconds getting it for me and paper can't be more than 3 bucks. Heck I know all about it, I have a printer at home. Who do you think you are charging that much for paper,ink and a binder?" You would probably show him the door.

Yeah, I get your point, I just hope you got mine as well. :tu:

Better case-in-point: we offer book location/ordering services. We will find a particular title for you, in or out of print, in paperback or hardback. We'll locate it, get a price, typically add a couple of bucks to the price we pay to cover our work on the location, and the seller's shipping and handling. We used to order on the customer's first asking, but got stiffed a few times, so now we will NOT order without at least a small deposit. We've had a few make similar noises, tho, about the cost, and our response is similar to this post: time we took to find it, and shipping and handling. Most people accept this as the cost of doing business with us, other will head off to Half Price Books, just because they're too cheap to pay a bit extra to *know* they're getting what they wanted, and would rather drive all over the place to find it for half price.

[Tex Arcana]

Thanks Rocks :beer:

I posted in the other thread that folks dont know what Bill Ford does and having been a CEO and having the responsibilities of one are a lot more than one knows or understands until they walk a mile in their shoes. This guy gets to hear from all kinds of stockholders about their stock price and what he has to do to fix the problem. He gets to hear what a dumbass he is from all kinds of Wall Street analysts that dont know anything about really running a business. Believe me, I know what that kind of stress is.. I have made doctors literally millions of dollars but its always a "what have you done for me lately" kind of attitude..
So I know how it is... I also know that I would never have achieved any kind of success if it wasnt for the efforts of all of the folks that I work with whether they are clerks, supervisors or managers. Everyone contributes.. well almost everyone, we are excluding Tex arent we? :evil
Dana


Yeah, yeah, bite me.. :flaming: I will bust my butt for those who earn my respect, and I believe in; the rest can kiss my a$$. :tongue:

I think my biggest point is that if it weren't for the grunts, the top-dawgs would NOT have "a pot to pee in", as my dear departed granny would always say. And if it weren't for those people that they dearly love to underpay and push to the breaking point, they'd have nothing. So show a little respect for the working stiffs, and make sure they're happy. That's all.

[Tex Arcana]

I am thinking that I dont like the executive bashing going on here.. although I do know how hard my staff and managers work and I sure dont want to have to do that work again.. but the place wouldnt run without them, so God Bless those folks that "work" for a living,,,
Dana
You are definitely the exception to the rule, and I salute you for that. :bows

It's great to see an exec that truly understands (and I hope you don't take my "corp-rat" comments personally). I've worked for too many corps that treated the grunts like crap, then complained when morale was in the toilet along with the profits--of course, their response to that was to cut jobs and increase work and cut raises for that all-important "profitable quarter", so they can take their bonuses, fly off the the Caymans, while the company collapses and the grunts are left to pick up the pieces between floggings by the new bosses--who are the same as the old bosses. :rolleyes:

The fact is, if the entire workstaff isn't happy overall, do'nt expect the work to be done right in any way. It takes EVERYONE to make sure it's done, from top to bottom, and if everyone is properly cared for, then they entire operation will work smoothly.

[Tex Arcana]

LOL........I stand corrected:eek: . I usually only read the first five words of Tex's posts.....at this point I start thinking of mean sh!t to say, so I stop:rll: .


J/K Tex.....no I wasn't...OK I was....well, maybe not.;)



Rocks:beer:
Punk.. :tongue: :tu:

[Silver_2000]

Wow ... This went a long ways in 24 hours....

My point back on page one still stands ...

I dont give a crap what your business costs are - or how much your phone lines cost or how good you are with a shovel ... Im not paying you an effective rate of $100 an hour to work a shovel. And in most cases you will find that companies that want to compete DONT charge those kinds of rates.

I know that you have to put gas in your truck. i also know you had to buy the shovel and you had to go to school to learn how to use it - I dont give a crap ... Workng a shovel is not now and will never be worth $100 to me.. And I think you will find that there are very few people who will disagree..

Most companies have hourly rates plus parts. Show me the book rate that says that it takes 3+ hours ( 70 an hour( typical auto rate ) into $250 ) to unbolt some traction bars...

Have I said that I dont give a crap how much the lift costs ? Or the snap on tools ???

Whew .....

[Tex Arcana]

Wow ... This went a long ways in 24 hours....

My point back on page one still stands ...

I dont give a crap what your business costs are - or how much your phone lines cost or how good you are with a shovel ... Im not paying you an effective rate of $100 an hour to work a shovel. And in most cases you will find that companies that want to compete DONT charge those kinds of rates.

I know that you have to put gas in your truck. i also know you had to buy the shovel and you had to go to school to learn how to use it - I dont give a crap ... Workng a shovel is not now and will never be worth $100 to me.. And I think you will find that there are very few people who will disagree..

Most companies have hourly rates plus parts. Show me the book rate that says that it takes 3+ hours ( 70 an hour( typical auto rate ) into $250 ) to unbolt some traction bars...

Have I said that I dont give a crap how much the lift costs ? Or the snap on tools ???

Whew .....


Pretty much everyone else's points, especially those who shop WalMart becasue the prices are cheap, no matter what it does to the economy. ;)

Unfortunately, everything you don't give a crap about is what's sending jobs offshore and into the hands of the Chinese. ANd, unfortunately, the end result will be a collapse and bankrupting of the entire nation. :(

I prefer to pay as little as possible for most things, but I'll pay extra for better work or service, or a better product. :tu:

[Mark #2]

Okay, just to clear up this thread all un-installs can be done in my garage. Beer volume to be negotiated up front.:D

We uninstalled all of Crawford's stuff in a couple of hours. Short of taking a tranny or engine out. I cannot think of any un-install that costs more than a couple of cases.

Mark

[Silver_2000]

Pretty much everyone else's points, especially those who shop WalMart becasue the prices are cheap, no matter what it does to the economy. ;)

Unfortunately, everything you don't give a crap about is what's sending jobs offshore and into the hands of the Chinese. ANd, unfortunately, the end result will be a collapse and bankrupting of the entire nation. :(

I prefer to pay as little as possible for most things, but I'll pay extra for better work or service, or a better product. :tu:

As usual Tex you missed the point

But in doing that you met my expectations...


Unfortunately, everything you don't give a crap about is what's sending jobs offshore and into the hands of the Chinese. ANd, unfortunately, the end result will be a collapse and bankrupting of the entire nation. http://www.talonclub.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif

Give me a break. In your mind me NOT paying a toothless shovel jockey a hundred bucks an hour to dig a trench = the collapse of the economy and the bankrupting of the nation.. Wow - you have it exactly back wards. The real problem is that 90% of the world cant afford to pay those rates and if they go ahead an pay them anyway the resultant effect might lead to your dire overstatements...

There are services that are worth extra and I do believe in paying extra for quality work. Unbolting traction bars and shoveling a ditch don't qualify as jobs that are worth that extra....

The "I don't give a crap about your overhead costs" are meant to say that you are running an inefficient business if you need to charge that much. Those costs are included in the hourly rate at all businesses why would that be an exception here ? If you think you need to charge 100 an hour to dig a ditch or $250 to unbolt traction bars you are either ripping me off or your business is in such bad shape you have to over charge every customer to keep the doors open.

But I dont know why I waste my breath...

Doug

[Tex Arcana]

As usual tex you mised the point

But in doing that you met my expectations...
So enlighten me, Oh Mighty One...