Seperators are a waste in my book

[PoorSvtman]

Ok I ran the typical seperator for a few months. Like everyone it collected tons of oil for the first few months. But mine slowly stoped working. I cleaned the filter and everything and it still wouldnt work.


Well I took my blower off last night and my intercooler and blower looked like it did when i cleaned it with 89k miles on it. After that is when i put the separator on. My digi didnt work so i took regular pics with film ill get them developed and scan them. But BLACKSUNSHINE stoped by and saw how nasty they thing was. Im not sure on the exact miles I ran the separator but it was for awhile. I have 103k miles on the L now.


Well since i didnt like the idea of just fixing one side of the problem,i added breathers to both sides of the vlave covers. I blocked the line that goes to the lower intake on the back side. I capped off where the drivers side line goes to the boot. Capped off the upper plenum port. I used pretty much all of the stock tubing just cut and moved it around to angle the breathers where i wanted them on both sides. Total cost was about 20 bucks for a few small breather filters.

[Tex Arcana]

THere's got to be some other reason for this problem that just your separators. :( I'm sorry to hear this, but running just breathers without actually flowing air thru the crankcase (and under a slight vacuum) scares me, if only because the breathers won't let the blowby gasses and water vapor get out of the crankcase, and eventually get into the oil.

I"m going to go ahead and do my separator setup, and I think I've got the system figured out well enough to figure one out that's effective. ;)

[PoorSvtman]

Trust me the vapor is getting out, you can see it. But like you and everyone else the seperators you all are using arent designed to be used in oily situations. They are designed for air/water seperation. The ones made for oil are alot more expensive and most places dont stock them.

But I tried 2 different separators(1 from LFP and another from walmart) and not even 20k miles later my intercooler and blower look like it did when i cleaned it at 80k miles. That just not acceptable in my book. Thats why I believe they are a waste. After you install them and a few weeks later i bet your hoses after the seperators will be oily. Ill put money on it.

Since I put the breathers on and totaly elminated the pcv system no oily air vapor can enter my intake system, my truck runs better and stronger.

But what half the people on all the Lightning boards dont like to understand is that everytruck is different and each one the amount of oil it sucks up is different. But after having first hand experiance with dime mod, the seperator mod and now the breather mod. The only one ill ever run is the breather mod. If youd like to see my setup and better understand it im willing to meet up with you or anyone.


Blacksunshine came over and saw the pics of the frist time i cleaned it and this time and he can vouch for how nasty it was.

[Tex Arcana]

Trust me the vapor is getting out, you can see it. But like you and everyone else the seperators you all are using arent designed to be used in oily situations. They are designed for air/water seperation. The ones made for oil are alot more expensive and most places dont stock them.

But I tried 2 different separators(1 from LFP and another from walmart) and not even 20k miles later my intercooler and blower look like it did when i cleaned it at 80k miles. That just not acceptable in my book. Thats why I believe they are a waste. After you install them and a few weeks later i bet your hoses after the seperators will be oily. Ill put money on it.

Since I put the breathers on and totaly elminated the pcv system no oily air vapor can enter my intake system, my truck runs better and stronger.

Blacksunshine came over and saw the pics of the frist time i cleaned it and this time and he can vouch for how nasty it was.


You're getting some vapor out; but unless you've got somethign you're not telling us pushing (or pulling) fresh air thru the crankcase, you're not getting *most* of it out, and that is my concern. I'm not saying your setup isn't working--I'm just expressing my concerns.

Hmmmm.. (running down to the garage to grab my separators) Damn.. tossed the paperwork.. Googling now... well, what I found was interesting, but a bit generic. What I see in the separators I have are the body, the filter, the bowl, and a plastic "threaded" ring that forces incoming air to spin, and therefor act as a cyclone separator, forcing most oil/water to cling to the bowl, and to condense, with the littel filter to grab the larger bits and what's left of the oil in the air. That's what I see, tho; sorry for having no pics, the camera isn't here.

The next question that occurs is: where did you mount your separators?? I think the important thing to remember here is that the PCV system doesn't work like a normal one, and that the flow thru the system will reverse when under boost. Also, if you haven't dealt with the oprifice at the bottom of the lower intake with your separator setup, then you're basically either recycling the oil trapped in the intake, or giving it a path to suck some from the PCV valve.

Everything I've read on this issue with Lightnings, pretty much agrees on one point: that the PCV valve on the passenger side valve cover isn't a true PCV check valve in the traditional sense ( the valve "checks" when oil strikes the bottom of the plunger, and "checks" when flow reverses for whatever reason), but is set up to allow the flow to reverse, again ostensibly for boost situations.

So the question is: where is the oil coming from? Obviously, it's coming from the valve cover areas, but why? If you look at it taking into consideration the flow reversal under boost, it becomes real obvious: the driver's side valve cover port is the culprit. Some people say there's a check valve built into the tube from there to the boot, but I think that's incorrect, especially considering that the system seems to have been designed to allow the flow to reverse; and considering that, if it does reverse under boost, and that tube checks the flow in reverse, then the pressure in the crankcase builds up from both boost and bypass, and results in the dipstick getting blown out. :nono:

So the separator/filter system must take this into account. Most systems I've seen only take care of normal flow, from the passenger cover, and completely ignore flow in reverse from the driver's side port. It also ignores the orifice and path from the lower intake. Which means we have two points of entry into the intake system that are not controlled.

So I beleive what you saw wasn't really the separator losing effectiveness (tho it's possible), but the system wasn't really doing the job completely. It was doing something (hence the oil it collected), and I'm thinking that, if it was plumbed in downstream of the passenger side tee, it initially collected some of the oil out of the lower intake that was trapped there from previous operation (assuming it was put in without pulling down the blower/intake assembly). Or, if the system was cleaned prior, the oil that got in there was drawn in thru the driver's side, down into the intake, out the orifice, and into the separator. And, of course, this isn't any better than before. :(

So I think the solution lies in addressing both sides: a separator on the passenger side, one on the driver's side (set up to trap oil as it flows AWAY from the valve cover port), and some additional filtration in the tubing before both separators (similar in concept to the breathers you're using). The only kink I see at the moment is how to deal with the orifice in the lower intake, and the tee, and I'm thinking that maybe a dual-pathed circuit from the orifice, with a pair of check valves to control which path is take depending on what mode the PCV system is in: if it's normal, then it's flwing thru the separator and then tees off to the lower intake and upper plenum; if it's under boost, then it flows from the lower intake to BELOW the separator, and into the valve cover. (I need to draw this up). On the driver's side, just the separator and auxilliary filtration should do the trick.


But what half the people on all the Lightning boards dont like to understand is that everytruck is different and each one the amount of oil it sucks up is different. But after having first hand experiance with dime mod, the seperator mod and now the breather mod. The only one ill ever run is the breather mod. If youd like to see my setup and better understand it im willing to meet up with you or anyone.

Hell, I understand all too well that ALL machines are different by some varying degrees, and each set of issues will vary depending on alot of factors. THis is just the nature of how it is. Some trucks won't need anything, others need something bigtime. I don't doubt that by completely eliminating any form of PCV, you've eliminated any oil infiltration (duh), but I am afriad you're shortening the life of your motor by eliminating an important function from the motor. Not to mention made it difficult to pass inspection, since PCV *is* considered a part of the emissions control system (which is why I'm not pulling the trigger 'til I can see what FOrd is going to do about it--I'm going to approach this as if it's aprt of the emissions control, and is a failure thereof, and therefore covered under the 10year/100,000 mile EPA emmisions warranty, by law).

Are you going to be at the meeting next week? I'd love to look over your system.

[BC Lightning]

Just do a search :D

[PoorSvtman]

I don't doubt that by completely eliminating any form of PCV, you've eliminated any oil infiltration (duh), but I am afriad you're shortening the life of your motor by eliminating an important function from the motor. Not to mention made it difficult to pass inspection,


The main thing about PCV is its there for emmissions only. Look at all your classic cars. They dont run PCV systems just breathers on the valve covers. Thats basicly the same setup im using that has been proven not ti harm anything in the long run.I did cap off the hose that goes to the lower intake. I have no problem with inspections. Being a state inspector has its pluses i suppose :cool: .

I dont see how eliminating the pcv can shorten your motors life. All the pcv system dose is recycle oil vapor so it dosent enter the atmosphere. Intern the oily vapor will make your air/fuel lean out and can also be a cause in detonation, with higher boost people that can be deadly on your motor.

Ill try and get my $50 crap digi cam to work and take some pics. Ill try to make it to the meeting. But by the time i get off work, get home shower off all the grease and sweat from tooling on motorhomes/ travel trailers all day its late and normaly lazy after that lol.

[cpeapea]

hey mike did you ever check how much oil was coming in from the drivers side? i had ran some experiments with it, i founds on my truck the drivers side pulls oil in as well, probably about half as much

also the pcv can help pull vacuum for better ring seal, but i would probably prefere a vacuum pump

[Silver_2000]

The main thing about PCV is its there for emmissions only. Look at all your classic cars. They dont run PCV systems just breathers on the valve covers. Thats basicly the same setup im using that has been proven not ti harm anything in the long run.I did cap off the hose that goes to the lower intake. I have no problem with inspections. Being a state inspector has its pluses i suppose :cool: .

I dont see how eliminating the pcv can shorten your motors life. All the pcv system dose is recycle oil vapor so it dosent enter the atmosphere. Intern the oily vapor will make your air/fuel lean out and can also be a cause in detonation, with higher boost people that can be deadly on your motor.

Ill try and get my $50 crap digi cam to work and take some pics. Ill try to make it to the meeting. But by the time i get off work, get home shower off all the grease and sweat from tooling on motorhomes/ travel trailers all day its late and normaly lazy after that lol.
[Sarcasm on]
As long as you ALWAYS let your engine run up to operating temp and hold it there for 40 min or so EVERY time you start it then the corrosive gases and vapors the PCV removes from the engine can be ignored.. [/sarcasm off]

[PoorSvtman]

hey mike did you ever check how much oil was coming in from the drivers side? i had ran some experiments with it, i founds on my truck the drivers side pulls oil in as well, probably about half as much

also the pcv can help pull vacuum for better ring seal, but i would probably prefere a vacuum pump


My drivers side pulls alot more oil than the passenger side. I cleaned my white breathers last week. My drivers side is a dark dark grayish black and my passenger side is still pretty white.

[Tex Arcana]

The main thing about PCV is its there for emmissions only. Look at all your classic cars. They dont run PCV systems just breathers on the valve covers. Thats basicly the same setup im using that has been proven not ti harm anything in the long run.I did cap off the hose that goes to the lower intake. I have no problem with inspections. Being a state inspector has its pluses i suppose :cool: .

I dont see how eliminating the pcv can shorten your motors life. All the pcv system dose is recycle oil vapor so it dosent enter the atmosphere. Intern the oily vapor will make your air/fuel lean out and can also be a cause in detonation, with higher boost people that can be deadly on your motor.

Ill try and get my $50 crap digi cam to work and take some pics. Ill try to make it to the meeting. But by the time i get off work, get home shower off all the grease and sweat from tooling on motorhomes/ travel trailers all day its late and normaly lazy after that lol.


So, come to the meeting all sweaty, stinky, and greasy, and we'll make you sit next to Doug... :d

If you remember about the classic cars, their engine lives were considerable shorter than modern cars; also, as Doug said, unless you're observing proper warmup and shutdown procedures (which change as the conditions change), you're opening yourself up to leaving blowby gases (which include unburnt gasoline) and water vapor in your crankcase, which all en up in your oil upon shutdown, thanks to condensation. Also also, PCV under normal function, pulls a slight vacuum in the crankcase, which aids in reing sealing (yeah, I said it before, but I wanted to emphasize it).

So, PCV does a bit more than just meet EPA requirements. And, even in our vehicles, it only works as designed under normal driving conditions--WOT actually "turns off" the system; the problem with ours is the flow actually reverses thanks to the PCV valve itself not being a traditional check valve, and the boost in the lower intake shoving air out that orifice.

Since I took those pics, the oil under the boot has been going away, so I"m thinking that the boot wasn't installed properly, and that was the actual source of oil. So, I"m thinking about going ahead and installing my separator setup, and seeing how well it works. :tu:

[Silver_2000]

So, come to the meeting all sweaty, stinky, and greasy, and we'll make you sit next to Doug... :d

Tex I sure hope to see you there.....

[BLACKSUNSHINE]

You're getting some vapor out; but unless you've got somethign you're not telling us pushing (or pulling) fresh air thru the crankcase, you're not getting *most* of it out, and that is my concern. I'm not saying your setup isn't working--I'm just expressing my concerns.

Hmmmm.. (running down to the garage to grab my separators) Damn.. tossed the paperwork.. Googling now... well, what I found was interesting, but a bit generic. What I see in the separators I have are the body, the filter, the bowl, and a plastic "threaded" ring that forces incoming air to spin, and therefor act as a cyclone separator, forcing most oil/water to cling to the bowl, and to condense, with the littel filter to grab the larger bits and what's left of the oil in the air. That's what I see, tho; sorry for having no pics, the camera isn't here.

The next question that occurs is: where did you mount your separators?? I think the important thing to remember here is that the PCV system doesn't work like a normal one, and that the flow thru the system will reverse when under boost. Also, if you haven't dealt with the oprifice at the bottom of the lower intake with your separator setup, then you're basically either recycling the oil trapped in the intake, or giving it a path to suck some from the PCV valve.

Everything I've read on this issue with Lightnings, pretty much agrees on one point: that the PCV valve on the passenger side valve cover isn't a true PCV check valve in the traditional sense ( the valve "checks" when oil strikes the bottom of the plunger, and "checks" when flow reverses for whatever reason), but is set up to allow the flow to reverse, again ostensibly for boost situations.

So the question is: where is the oil coming from? Obviously, it's coming from the valve cover areas, but why? If you look at it taking into consideration the flow reversal under boost, it becomes real obvious: the driver's side valve cover port is the culprit. Some people say there's a check valve built into the tube from there to the boot, but I think that's incorrect, especially considering that the system seems to have been designed to allow the flow to reverse; and considering that, if it does reverse under boost, and that tube checks the flow in reverse, then the pressure in the crankcase builds up from both boost and bypass, and results in the dipstick getting blown out. :nono:

So the separator/filter system must take this into account. Most systems I've seen only take care of normal flow, from the passenger cover, and completely ignore flow in reverse from the driver's side port. It also ignores the orifice and path from the lower intake. Which means we have two points of entry into the intake system that are not controlled.

So I beleive what you saw wasn't really the separator losing effectiveness (tho it's possible), but the system wasn't really doing the job completely. It was doing something (hence the oil it collected), and I'm thinking that, if it was plumbed in downstream of the passenger side tee, it initially collected some of the oil out of the lower intake that was trapped there from previous operation (assuming it was put in without pulling down the blower/intake assembly). Or, if the system was cleaned prior, the oil that got in there was drawn in thru the driver's side, down into the intake, out the orifice, and into the separator. And, of course, this isn't any better than before. :(

So I think the solution lies in addressing both sides: a separator on the passenger side, one on the driver's side (set up to trap oil as it flows AWAY from the valve cover port), and some additional filtration in the tubing before both separators (similar in concept to the breathers you're using). The only kink I see at the moment is how to deal with the orifice in the lower intake, and the tee, and I'm thinking that maybe a dual-pathed circuit from the orifice, with a pair of check valves to control which path is take depending on what mode the PCV system is in: if it's normal, then it's flwing thru the separator and then tees off to the lower intake and upper plenum; if it's under boost, then it flows from the lower intake to BELOW the separator, and into the valve cover. (I need to draw this up). On the driver's side, just the separator and auxilliary filtration should do the trick.



Hell, I understand all too well that ALL machines are different by some varying degrees, and each set of issues will vary depending on alot of factors. THis is just the nature of how it is. Some trucks won't need anything, others need something bigtime. I don't doubt that by completely eliminating any form of PCV, you've eliminated any oil infiltration (duh), but I am afriad you're shortening the life of your motor by eliminating an important function from the motor. Not to mention made it difficult to pass inspection, since PCV *is* considered a part of the emissions control system (which is why I'm not pulling the trigger 'til I can see what FOrd is going to do about it--I'm going to approach this as if it's aprt of the emissions control, and is a failure thereof, and therefore covered under the 10year/100,000 mile EPA emmisions warranty, by law).

Are you going to be at the meeting next week? I'd love to look over your system.

Jeeze Tex, I know a publisher if you want to write a book on the subject.. :eek2:

[Tex Arcana]

Tex I sure hope to see you there.....

Just as long as you leave the baseball bat at home... :d

[Mark #2]

My 2 cents.
Put a water/oil compressor type on the upper intake tube and put a pop-up sprinkler head filter in the drivers side valve cover. Both of these provide for a condensation surface for the oil vapors. This works IMHO.

I clean the compressor type at every oil change.
Mark

[Tex Arcana]

My 2 cents.
Put a water/oil compressor type on the upper intake tube and put a pop-up sprinkler head filter in the drivers side valve cover. Both of these provide for a condensation surface for the oil vapors. This works IMHO.

I clean the compressor type at every oil change.
Mark

About the same as using steel wool... hmmm.. more food for thought...