You need to sell these Ron!

[L8 APEX]

Every home should have this product:bows
http://coolnsave.com/images/photo-main2.jpg (www.coolnsave.com)

[Mark #2]

Does anyone have one of these? We were engineering a sprinkler solenoid and a misting system here at lunch the other day.

One guy already rigged a misting system that turned on when the unit turned on, but it requried a 110v source. This looks like a good idea to me.

Any comments?

[99WhiteBeast]

what is this suppose to do?

[L8 APEX]

I'll see what Rocks says first. I wish I had pics from a job like this a few years back:D .

[L8 APEX]

what is this suppose to do?
The water increases the efficiency of the condenser helping remove more heat. That lowers system pressures which lowers the amount of electricity needed to turn the compressor. The average compressor at 300psi takes about 15amps to run. If you drop the pressure down to 200 the current drops down to 10 amps or so.

[SILVER2000SVT]

I do this sometimes with a sprinkler during the heat of the day on really hot days. It helps out a pretty good bit. For those people who's AC are under sized or can't quite keep up on extremely hot days, this will often help fix the problem.

The only concern I would have is a build up of minerals from the water on the cooling fins, But I think it would be a long time before this would be real issue.

[Silver_2000]

Every home should have this product:bows
http://coolnsave.com/images/photo-main2.jpg (http://www.coolnsave.com/)

Ok help me out

WTF is it

EDIT

Ok here are the details


The Breakthrough
http://www.coolnsave.com/images/div-1.gif
The problem with existing industrial AC misting units is that they are large, complex systems that need to be professionally installed. They rely on electrical solenoids and switches to send water to the misters only when the AC condenser is running. Most homeowners cannot afford to have such a system installed for them, they are too complex and difficult to maintain, and they require electrical components.

The Cool-n-Save™ breakthrough is its patented flapper valve, which easily installs to the top of almost any AC condenser. When the AC unit starts to blow air, it blows the flapper up, opens the valve, and water flows to the misters. When the AC unit shuts down, the flapper valve shuts and no water is wasted.

This simple, brilliant variation on existing systems is what allows anyone to quickly install (http://www.coolnsave.com/installation.asp) the Cool-n-Save™ with NO TOOLS. No electricity is needed to power the Cool-n-Save™, and no complex connections or diagrams need to be followed. Finally, the scientific principals used for years by large corporations to save money can be applied to almost any home AC system.


Saving you Money
http://www.coolnsave.com/images/div-1.gif
When applied to your AC condenser unit, the Cool-n-Save™ creates a "Cool Zone" which keeps the air around your unit much cooler than the surrounding air. Because of this, your AC unit is able to transfer heat much more effectively, greatly increasing its EER (Energy Efficiency Rating.)

This increased efficiency saves you money in two ways. First, the lower temperatures in the AC compressor itself means it runs at a lower pressure, allowing it to work using less energy. Second, your AC unit will run for shorter periods since it will transfer heat much more efficiently. The end result is your AC unit using much less electricity, lowering your summer cooling bills!

[Silver_2000]

I tried using regular lawn sprinkler back before I got my attic ducts fixed and it didnt seem to help much ...But Itwould have been tough to tell

I had the duct encapsulation that you see on TV done and its made a HUGE difference - Before the AC would run all day on a 95 degree days and some days it couldnt keep up - Now its working just fine...

Doug

[Sandman]

...

I had the duct encapsulation that you see on TV done and its made a HUGE difference ...
Doug

duct encapsulation :confused:

[Silver_2000]

duct encapsulation :confused:

I have a house builtin the 80s and the round plastic ducts were falling apart and only have al little insulaton in them ..

I had http://www.icynene.com/Default.aspx?Page=163 insulation sprayed around all the ducts and added an attic fan

made HUGE difference

Doug

[Sandman]

Hmm... these all sound good. I may own a house soon, and these sound like great things to do!

[L8 APEX]

Jason gets a cookie! The problem is the minerals in the water deposit on the coil and acctualy start to insulate the coil from transfering heat. Then it eventualy eats into the coil and will develop a leak. Prolonged use of this product will cost you a minimum of a professional alkaline coil cleaning $100-300 bucks. And Possibly a condensing coil/unit $$$. Maybe if you could filter the water and keep from calc'ing up the coil it would help a little except for a huge wet soggy spot in the yard. It is a rigged up band-aid for a deeper problem. A/C units are also most efficient at higher pressures as far as BTU capacity is concerned.

[Mark #2]

Well we were engineering at lunch again today, and an organic and mineral filter system would cost about $20/year to maintain.

One of our supertechs has "engineered" an interesting system for his home: solenoids, valves, misters, filters, etc. Basically a commercial level system.

He is coming up with a schematic and parts list.

Doug, I am interested in your insulation contact and what it cost as I have one of those 80's homes with the same ducts.

[dboat]

There is currently a system out there that keeps the coils in a water bath. Saw it on Michael Holigan's show. It uses about 30% of what a regular a/c unit uses.. but it must have some kind of a filter like the Mister Clean Auto Wash to keep out the minerals..

In the kind of heat in Dallas, I became convinced that passive methods to move the air out of the attic are not enough. You need a fan to get it done. I was thinking of going with the solar powered units myself.
Dana

[Silver_2000]

Well we were engineering at lunch again today, and an organic and mineral filter system would cost about $20/year to maintain.

One of our supertechs has "engineered" an interesting system for his home: solenoids, valves, misters, filters, etc. Basically a commercial level system.

He is coming up with a schematic and parts list.

Doug, I am interested in your insulation contact and what it cost as I have one of those 80's homes with the same ducts.


Lots of places do it - I wont recommend the company I used ( think it was rush co ) - You should stop by and take a look - its like the surface of the moon up there....


Go to the link above and use the dealers search ...
Doug

[Tex Arcana]

jeepers, I did that on TWO houses... :rolleyes:

Well, the first one was the first house we owned, old 50's-era TI Town home, in RIchardson, the AC unit was the original, and had the orignial cast-aluminum compressor that was the size of Rock's blower! :d At 2 in the afternoon, it would trip a breaker (weak breaker), and kill the ac, so I set up a sprinkler to hit it during the heat of the day.

In Plano, the unit was newer (Lennox, similar to the on pic'd above), and when the roof was swapped from shake to asphalt, the unit couldn't keep up, so I took a piece of hose, capped one end, pokes some fine holes in it to mist the water, tie-wrapped it to the top of the condenser unit, and put a simple water timer on it, to turn on at about noon, and off at about 6, misting a very fine and small amount of water, just enough to drop air temps coming out of the unit by about 20deg, which did the trick.

As for the deposits issues: a simple filter will do the trick. And the efficiency can't be questioned: since what an AC unit does is create a temperature difference, when it's 100 outside, it can't do better'n 15 deg inside temp drops at best; drop that air temp thru the condenser by 20 deg, and you can gain better cooling inside (100-20=80, meaning interior temp drops can hit 25 deg or better).

So what's left to question is if the cost of the water is worth it.



And it ain't all that new: used to, they'd tell you to run a soaker hose across the roof ridge, to cool the roof down during the day, and reduce attic temps and thereby interior temps, cutting the load on the ac unit.

Nice unit, tho, if it'll last. ;)

[03LightningRocks]

LOL..........I will resist poking holes in darn near every post in this thread....:rll: .



Rocks....:rolleyes:

[Silver_2000]

LOL..........I will resist poking holes in darn near every post in this thread....:rll: .

Rocks....:rolleyes:

What fun would that be...

[Tex Arcana]

LOL..........I will resist poking holes in darn near every post in this thread....:rll: .



Rocks....:rolleyes:

Aw, c'mon Rocks, you know you want to... you konw you want to fire up that flamethrower, and douse us all with it... come ON, DO IT!! :evil

Seriously, I'd really like to hear your take on that, considering your profession and experience. Please? :)

[03LightningRocks]

OK..........I'll comment on the "water wetter" idea. 1) premature failure due to corrosion and rust. 2) water expense.....hell, my fricking toilet was letting a little water by-pass and my water bill shot up by 20 bucks a month.....there is no way in the world that you'll save enough on electricity to justify the water expense.3) Water and electricity are a bad combination....picture the big metal electric box, sitting in the middle of a water puddle....:rll: . Residential condensing units are not designed to be submerged in water...they are also not designed to have water constently running over them.....they are water resistant, they are not water-proof.


Now for the shingle problem. The home was originally set up(heat load) for wood shingles. When you changed the shingles to a new type, you changed the load. The proper solution is to ventilate the attic better and have the insulation upgraded to an R-30 or better. Wood shingle roofs typically didn't have as many soffet vents as comp. shingle roofs. You have to add more after you make the change. As Dana pointed out, powered ventilators are a good way to approach it.


Spray in foam sh!t............500 bucks worth of blow in insulation = 9" of spray in foam sh!t.....and still allows for working on wires/pipes/ducts in the attic. Your issues Doug, where probably due more to the broken vapor barrier in your flex ducts than the R-value of your insulation. Also....there are several groups of homes in your area that did not get enough attic fans from day one...I worked on them...."back in the day:ron: " and those darned attics would get up in the 140 degree range. Can you say "builder f@ck up"?


That should get us started...:eek: .

[L8 APEX]

For grins I took my Fluke 29 with type K temp probe in a few attics. Just to know how hot it was before I died at 18. It seemed like 140-146 was about the limit an attic could reach. Everything in the attic was too hot to touch for long. The wood structure, drain pan, furnace panels etc were all 140' like they came out of an oven. I got very quick at changing blower motors, circuit boards and evap pans etc. I would come down from the attic totally soaked and almost cold in regular air. It really sucks when you have to sawzall some wood up there and it smokes profusely on the borderline of combustion:evil . Good times!

[03LightningRocks]

And the efficiency can't be questioned: since what an AC unit does is create a temperature difference, when it's 100 outside, it can't do better'n 15 deg inside temp drops at best; drop that air temp thru the condenser by 20 deg, and you can gain better cooling inside (100-20=80, meaning interior temp drops can hit 25 deg or better).



Wrong!!!!!!!!!! A properely designed HVAC system will keep a house 25-30 degrees cooler than the outside temps......without water on your condensor. If it won't do this, find and fix the reason it won't do it.

Jury rigging is not a repair:twitch: .

[Tex Arcana]

OK..........I'll comment on the "water wetter" idea. 1) premature failure due to corrosion and rust. 2) water expense.....hell, my fricking toilet was letting a little water by-pass and my water bill shot up by 20 bucks a month.....there is no way in the world that you'll save enough on electricity to justify the water expense.3) Water and electricity are a bad combination....picture the big metal electric box, sitting in the middle of a water puddle....:rll: . Residential condensing units are not designed to be submerged in water...they are also not designed to have water constently running over them.....they are water resistant, they are not water-proof.


Now for the shingle problem. The home was originally set up(heat load) for wood shingles. When you changed the shingles to a new type, you changed the load. The proper solution is to ventilate the attic better and have the insulation upgraded to an R-30 or better. Wood shingle roofs typically didn't have as many soffet vents as comp. shingle roofs. You have to add more after you make the change. As Dana pointed out, powered ventilators are a good way to approach it.


Spray in foam sh!t............500 bucks worth of blow in insulation = 9" of spray in foam sh!t.....and still allows for working on wires/pipes/ducts in the attic. Your issues Doug, where probably due more to the broken vapor barrier in your flex ducts than the R-value of your insulation. Also....there are several groups of homes in your area that did not get enough attic fans from day one...I worked on them...."back in the day:ron: " and those darned attics would get up in the 140 degree range. Can you say "builder f@ck up"?


That should get us started...:eek: .


Bravo, Uncle Rocks... I knew you could do it!!:tu:

Exactamundo on the roof issue: the shake roof was basically one big vent, the attic temps before we changed to composition during the summer weren't much above ambient, and one could feel the breezes blowing thru. After the composition installation, temps went up, and so did the electric bills in the summer (the gas bill went down in the winter, tho). And, since at the time I did the trick, the a/c unit was overstressed and getting weaker, thanks to the overloading, the "water wetter" trick helped short term. When we sold the house, we gave the next owners an allowance to replace the unit.

I agree that using the water wetter isn't a great idea, but for a short-term fix, it's not too bad, since the units have to work when wet (otherwise, they'd be shorting out every time it rains! :eek:). But, "short-term" is the operative phrase.

You need to come out to my "new" house, and check out the systems I'm dealing with... you might get to bitch about something completely new!! :evil

[Tex Arcana]

Wrong!!!!!!!!!! A properely designed HVAC system will keep a house 25-30 degrees cooler than the outside temps......without water on your condensor. If it won't do this, find and fix the reason it won't do it.

Jury rigging is not a repair:twitch: .

Very true... but, take two units, one without water spray, and one with, and put them in the same conditions, say 105deg in the middle of August, and we both know that the water spray unit will reject more heat, and therefore create a larger temperature drop indoors. And we both konw that this is because the water vapor-laden air can carry hella more heat than just dry air. ;)

For the record, Rocks, I'm with you: do it right if you can, and either fix the problem or replace the unit. On the other hand, tehre are people who can't do that, and need some way to make it work temporarily, so let's let 'em do it, and when the units die, you can go in and fix 'em for 'em. :tu:

[03LightningRocks]

Very true... but, take two units, one without water spray, and one with, and put them in the same conditions, say 105deg in the middle of August, and we both know that the water spray unit will reject more heat, and therefore create a larger temperature drop indoors.


Wrong again.............it rejects the same amount of heat....but at a lower pressure/temp.

[Silver_2000]

Spray in foam sh!t............500 bucks worth of blow in insulation = 9" of spray in foam sh!t.....and still allows for working on wires/pipes/ducts in the attic. Your issues Doug, where probably due more to the broken vapor barrier in your flex ducts than the R-value of your insulation. Also....there are several groups of homes in your area that did not get enough attic fans from day one...I worked on them...."back in the day:ron: " and those darned attics would get up in the 140 degree range. Can you say "builder f@ck up"?
That should get us started...:eek: .

Ron

Clearly you are the expert - trouble is I met you too late...

I had replaced most of the broken ducts myself - A nasty itchy poisonous job that I wouldnt wish on anyone. 20 years of orkin bug bombs leaves quite a residue.
The house had a new furnace when we bought it and I added a new coil and condenser to match. The time to go up in size was when the furnace was purchased BUT it wasnt my call. I already have a ton of fiberglass insulation up there and had added an electric fan. There were no fans in the house - just 2 tired turbines that were mounted wrong. Even the new ducts only have like an inch of insulation if that ... As you said it was easily 130 up there in August. I could feel the cold thru the insulation. In physics I learned that was NOT good... :tongue:

All the stuff I did just wasnt cutting it. As a last resort I had the ducts insulated and a large air return added. Not an expert and dont know what the real fix was, but since then, I dont sit in the Living room sweating my balls off as the temp rises and the AC meter spins..
Next AC job you are on the hook ... :bows

Doug

[L8 APEX]

Refer to my post on temps and efficiency. The higher the pressure the more BTU's the refrigerant is moving. When you water a coil you lower the capacity of the system. It draws less power but is also doing less work, hand in hand.. I confuse myself, I argued with an old supervisor about this a while back and he had some theory on how the referigerant transported or cycled more BTU's at a higher pressure. Kind of like raising fuel pressure = flowing more fuel.

[03LightningRocks]

........... I dont sit in the Living room sweating my balls off as the temp rises and the AC meter spins..

Doug

:rll: :rll: :rll: .............Sounds like you fixed it to me. I know that this is what I like to hear our customers say.


I really didn't post to bust anyones chops. I just saw so many misconceptions(is that a word?), that I had to say something.

Believe it or not...every issue I have seen posted here on this thread, I have dealt with in the field. I actually find it a little interesting to see how some folks try to deal with these issues on their own.

Like for instance...Tex thinking that water will increase the capacity of his air conditioner. What he was inadvertantly doing with his water trick kept his compressor from shutting down on it's overload in the heat of the day.His tripping breaker told me that his unit was overamping at some point during the day....the water took some of the load off the unit, so it quit shutting off on the internal overload.....but he thinks it was removing more heat.

By the way...you have some big balls to want to change out your own duct work. That has to be the shittiest job in our business.

Rocks

[Tex Arcana]

:rll: :rll: :rll: .............Sounds like you fixed it to me. I know that this is what I like to hear our customers say.


I really didn't post to bust anyones chops. I just saw so many misconceptions(is that a word?), that I had to say something.

Believe it or not...every issue I have seen posted here on this thread, I have dealt with in the field. I actually find it a little interesting to see how some folks try to deal with these issues on their own.

Like for instance...Tex thinking that water will increase the capacity of his air conditioner. What he was inadvertantly doing with his water trick kept his compressor from shutting down on it's overload in the heat of the day.His tripping breaker told me that his unit was overamping at some point during the day....the water took some of the load off the unit, so it quit shutting off on the internal overload.....but he thinks it was removing more heat.

By the way...you have some big balls to want to change out your own duct work. That has to be the shittiest job in our business.

Rocks


Don't confuse that story with the hypothetical, Rocks; let me rephrase: adding water to the air increases the heat capacity of the AIR... ;) And with the OLD system, it turned out it was a weak leg on the breakers--swapped 'em with the oven breakers to test, but couldn't afford to replace them, so stuck with the water dousing--did I mention this was waaaaaayyyy back in 1989?? ;)

Now, with the newer system in Plano, interior temps during the day in the summer could hit 76 or 77, when before they struggled to stay at 80. But that was right before we sold it, too, so the system at that time was as old as the house, and the house was built in '83, so it was... almost 20yrs old. :eek2:

[L8 APEX]

Insulation breaks down badly in older homes and over time. Many people forget about this after years of comfy living. 90% of old homes I went to you could see the rafters in the attic. New home buidling standard is 14"s of ichy I think... Spray in insulation is CHEAP! get it! Also original buidler grade A/C systems are marginal at best. When they die it is best to upgrade them trough a reliable contractor like Plano Air. Upgrading often includes a larger line set and return ducting.

[03LightningRocks]

Systems loose capacity with age. So a sytem that starts at 4 tons, may only be removing 3.5 tons after 8-10 years. Just imagine what happens after 20 years.


No more free A/C lessons...LOL....I have to start charging at this point;) .


Actually...I am sick of thinking work while in my "at play" forum. Thanks for dragging my arse into this Terry....I owe ya one:rolleyes: .

[03LightningRocks]

Insulation breaks down badly in older homes and over time. Many people forget about this after years of comfy living. 90% of old homes I went to you could see the rafters in the attic. New home buidling standard is 14"s of ichy I think... Spray in insulation is CHEAP! get it! Also original buidler grade A/C systems are marginal at best. When they die it is best to upgrade them trough a reliable contractor like Plano Air. Upgrading often includes a larger line set and return ducting.


:tu: ...single biggest cause for the "my system doesn't cool like it use to" complaint.

[Tex Arcana]

Insulation breaks down badly in older homes and over time. Many people forget about this after years of comfy living. 90% of old homes I went to you could see the rafters in the attic. New home buidling standard is 14"s of ichy I think... Spray in insulation is CHEAP! get it! Also original buidler grade A/C systems are marginal at best. When they die it is best to upgrade them trough a reliable contractor like Plano Air. Upgrading often includes a larger line set and return ducting.

Absolutely... well said. Something we all forget.


a reliable contractor like Plano Air.

More free advertising?? :rll:

[L8 APEX]

If you buy 10 bags of blow in insulation from HOME DEPOT you get a free 4 hour rental on the insulation hopper/blower.:D

[George G.]

wouldn't it be better to spend a few hours and refluff the blow in stuff that's already up there instead of blowing more over it? this is focusing on the weight factor. Also, what should max attic temps be? Cooling has been a battle in my house from day 1. Even right now, with the t-stat set at 80...the compressor WILL NOT turn off....once! I had the outside unit replaced last year and it seems to run with less electricity(gauging by how fast the meter wheel spins) but it still will not cool what I think it should.

By the way...I can see the rafters in my attic too and my attic fan was never connected. There's no power running to it. All I have is the soffet vents(lots of them) and I had a ridge vent installed last year when the roof got replaced(not sure if that was worth it or not)

[Silver_2000]

If you buy 10 bags of blow in insulation from HOME DEPOT you get a free 4 hour rental on the insulation hopper/blower.:D

Dont get the recycled paper **** though... Get real fiberglass... I used the recycled paper to insulate over a garage and its just didnt work as well - it compacted real fast.

Doug

[Silver_2000]

:rll: :rll: :rll: .............Sounds like you fixed it to me. I know that this is what I like to hear our customers say.

SNIP

By the way...you have some big balls to want to change out your own duct work. That has to be the shittiest job in our business.

Rocks

Glad to see Im not the only one who thought it sucked.

Doug

[Silver_2000]

looking for free advice ... :evil

where can I get a light brown or wood grained vent cover ?

8x13 ?

Doug

[L8 APEX]

Standard Supply on Dairy Milk just charge it to Ron's account since they are wholesale only:twitch: .

[03LightningRocks]

looking for free advice ... :evil

where can I get a light brown or wood grained vent cover ?

8x13 ?

Doug

Is that for a supply(air blows out)...or a return(air sucks in)? Also recheck the measurement.....it is probably a 12x6.... We go by the hole size, not the outside edges of the grille. I can get a brown grille....it's a chocolate brown. You can also go to home depot and by buy a white grille along with a can of spray paint in your favorite color.


Rocks

[Silver_2000]

Is that for a supply(air blows out)...or a return(air sucks in)? Also recheck the measurement.....it is probably a 12x6.... We go by the hole size, not the outside edges of the grille. I can get a brown grille....it's a chocolate brown. You can also go to home depot and by buy a white grille along with a can of spray paint in your favorite color.
Rocks

Its supply ...

Ill just get the paint and paint the ugly white one I have...

THANKS

[dboat]

Prior to selling my home in Dallas not quite 2 yrs ago. I had Ron come in and replace my heaters and a ton of ducting. His guys worked like dogs starting very early in the morn and made sure that we had air all day, except for a short stint. They had to break apart the heater that was a 300 lb cast iron monster and then completely redeck and redo the system. The workmanship was fantastic and this was done in the heat of summer. I only wish I would have known Ron before I had had any work done on it because it would have been the best money spent. I would do business with him again in a heartbeat.

But now that I live here and the average high in the summer is 78. Well my tiny little ac unit doesnt get too much work. The heater is another matter. We have a DC fan unit that we run 24/7 and it keeps this two story home even temps all the time. It runs in a slow mode so that you dont even hear it.

Dana

[Tex Arcana]

looking for free advice ... :evil

where can I get a light brown or wood grained vent cover ?

8x13 ?

Doug


You could get a woodgrain "stain" kit, in essence a paint kit that allows you to create a woodgrain pattern on metal and plastic.

Also, after a nice Google session:
http://www.volko.com/oakregisters.htm
http://www.airwoodvents.com/profile.html

This looks the best, IMO: http://www.rensup.com/Wooden-Floor-Register/10006.htm

Google IS your friend. :tu: