F#@% Baseball and its 'Roid Juiced Freaks!!!

[StormShadow]

I heard today that there are a number of players that have tested positive for steroids that are going thru the appeal process before the names will be released. The number of players that have tested positive was reported to be 61!!!! Holy ****!!! How about we just release the names of the players that are not using!! Among the names rumored to be amongst the users are Roger Clemens, Johnny Damon, and ..............Alex Rodriguez' punk ass. Why doesn't baseball either enforce the rules like football or just tell everyone that anything goes. No wonder nobody watches baseball anymore. First we had the Juice Ball year when Sammy Say-It-Isn't-Sosa and Mark McGwire were hitting 100 homers each. Then Sammy was caught with a corked bat on the field and now everyone is getting busted for roids. What a corrupt ass sport, it's worse than boxing!!

Look at how big these players have gotten! They tell us that with the correct diet , suppliments, and excercise that we could all be big like that but I say. :Bullshit Here is the question I pose to you: If you knew that if you took steroids for , lets say 10 years. Starting out in high school all the way thru college and into your first few years in the pro's and were guaranteed to make lots of money so that you would be set for life but would die early and experience all of the drawbacks of using drugs would you still do it?

[PoorSvtman]

Its all crap either way. Its the team and all the other head guys that are letting this get by. From what ive heard players are randomly selected for drug screenings. Thats b/s to begin with. They all should be tested not just a select hand full. Probly the reason so many are getting caught now is that one bit time player got caught now they are getting off there butts and testing players with signs of drug use.


Its all retarted and corupt like every sport is. Most of it is probly so fine no one sees it.

[WA 2 FST]

Adam,

I haven't seen the report today, if its a new one. I heard about a number of "star" players that got nailed and are appealing it right now. I heard that last week. Then I heard that was just a rumor and its not true.

As far as the "juiced ball" deal... nah, those two guys were just doing some form of steriods, and their records should be removed from the books. It's unfortunate b/c I am willing to bet the vast majority of players do not take illegal substances/supplements, but everyone gets thrown into the same pot and labeled.

As far as your ?, the problem with it is that there is no way to come close to guaranteeing a spot in the "pros." Baseball is actually a sport where you have a better chance of playing professionally, if for no other reason than there are hundreds of minor league/independent league teams to play for. Those guys don't get paid squat. Unless they were a high draft pick just starting out in the minors, they go paycheck to paycheck. It's not glamorous and it will not pay the bills for a family ... for long. So, even if someone were to say it was worth it to _try_ what you're talking about, they have such a slim chance of actually playing Major League ball that it wouldn't be worth it.

I guess theoretically, if you _knew_ you'd make it and get a big contract, would you still take the 'roids knowing all of the long-term health issues. Same thing with white-collar crime (embezzelment, etc). You may live the life of the rich and famous for awhile, but eventually it will catch up to you. I say, no its not worth it.

I played baseball at a small college and I know guys who did steriods b/c at the small schools there is almost no testing, and yet the juice is just as accessible. Really not that many baseball players did it, but plenty of football players did... like these guys were ever going to have a shot at playing football professionally... right!:rolleyes:

Oh, and you're exactly right about not being able to get "that big" with proper diet, excercise. I've studied this a lot with my brother, who's an M.D. He's not a genetic scientist, but he's done some study in that field. The fact is we're born with a certain body type. I could have a professional trainer give me the perfect workout, have someone cook the perfect meals, eat at the proper time... and I would gain ~10-15lbs max. I'm built lean and that's the way it is.

Post-pubescent men do not just all of a sudden change their body type (for the better). Barry Bonds is a perfect example. At age 27-29 he was 175-185lbs. Fast, strong, awesome athlete. All of a sudden he puts on 55+lbs of muscle. He goes from lean and mean, to a classic mesomorph body type. Impossible. He was already in tip-top shape. If he was overweight and 260, I could see him trimming down. But you can't do what he did naturally.

[BC Lightning]

Baseball is America's past time and in it's pure form the hardest and greatest sport to play. It takes skill and athletism.It has been tested such sports informers such as ESPN and reported after testing different things in different sports, and of those hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in all sports. It is a great skill and a God given talent to hit a round 95+ mph fastball with a round wooden bat.

The problem with baseball is its player's union. If one player feels un happy they can go to the player's union and have a lock out. The reason for this is because the sport was established back in the 1800's and had enormous popularity in the turn of the century. It became espically big in the 00's-30's with Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, and so on. A union was formed to protect the players from the management just like a union in business. The management and union agreed that there would be no salary cap and no manadatory league drug testing (however teams were allowed to test if they felt the need), two of baseballs biggest problems. The NFL, NBA, NHL, MLS, etc. all were established way after baseball therefore had more rules and regulations. (The actual pro leagues, not the actual sport itself)

I played at a D-1 college and there are still ways around the testing even with DBU's known baseball success. Although having the oppurnity to take steroids (D-ball and Test), I never did take them. I know personal friends that are at the next level, minor league A-AAA as well and active players in the show who have taken steroids, I'm not sure if all of them stoped, which I'm sure some haven't. However I also have a very close family friend who never did take roids and is an active pitcher. Sometimes its God given, other times its man given. I should also point out like Wes said that there were more people not using steroids than actual ones using them. A good number went on to play pro ball.

The actual chances of making the next step have to be perfect, have your best night, in front of the right people. More times than not it doesn't happen. the average starting out minor league player makes about $10,000-15,000 a year. You play 162 games a year not including post season, all star games, or spring training. I remember talking to a scout from the Seattle Mariners about my self and another pitcher. I didn't play that day but he did. Anyways, he took down our information talked to us a little bit, and another pitcher came and asked the scout what he thought about the way he pitched (he was a middle relief and pitched pretty well for two innings before our closer came in). I remember the scout saying he pitched really well, "but that he was too short. The franchise wont allow us to turn a player in who isn't at least 6'1" "
why spend the money for a guy throwing 90-92 who is 5'9" when they can get somebody taller throwing the same velocity.


:ron:
A close friend of mine is currently in the minors, and signed for a $1.xxx million signing bonus. He has taken steroids since high school. He got me the roids when I thought about using them and when I asked him about the side affects he said, "by the time the side affects actually happen, I will have had a great pro career with alot of money, all I care about is getting to the show." He also possessed that one thing that the great pitchers have and others try and get it. I don't know what it is, we went through the same work outs, same running, even through the same velocity, but when he pitched he had that little extra (not meaning the roids, he was taking test which is not strength, but a steroid to help lean and cut, its what they give horses to lean then up for a race). You can't explain it, except maybe God gave him that special arm.


Is it worth it?? In some eyes it is, no matter the consequences. Players know that there will always be another younger more capable player to take his spot so they, hit more, throw more bullpens, lift more, and use things to help increase strength, speed, stamina. Others see that it can and will eventually hurt you, but those are the chances you take. There are no guarantees to anything in life and you shouldn't live in a way that there might be a guarantee, espically in sports.

[WA 2 FST]

Michael is right about the scouts. This goes with any sport, but they draft based upon potential... not necessarily where you are skill-wise at a given time. The Univ. of Texas could play competitively in most AA leagues, but many of those players have already reached their max potential, so they go unsigned/undrafted.

Just like the shorter pitcher. He may be exceptional at D-1 (or AA equivalent), but you don't draft/sign guys with AA potential. You sign them with the belief they have MLB potential.

Back to the steroids issue... it just makes avid baseball fans like me appreciate the stats that players like Mantle, Maris, Ryan, Jackson, etc put up. The ball wasn't juiced, and the bats weren't nearly as good... and yet they could still hit. Ryan was an ageless wonder on the mound.

But we should have expected the offensive side to get better on average with time. After all, that is what sells tickets. The parks are smaller now, the technology behind making baseballs and wood bats (the maple bats they use now are better than the aluminum bats I had in HS and college... I can personally attest to this), and rule changes (real or implied... for example the mound is now shorter than it used to be, and we all know the strike zone at the MLB level is very small) will all make for higher batting averages, more power numbers if you take into account cross-section of players (not just the best or worst). Same thing with golf. Nowdays its no big deal if you can hit a ball 300yds. Those guys aren't juicing (maybe some, but most certainly aren't). The equipment is 100x better than it used to be.

But when a guy goes from hitting 18 HRs to 50 in one year (e.g.: Brady Anderson, former Orioles CF), there's something else going on.

Oh, and Michael... it wasn't the 95mph fastball that was the problem... it was that darn 88mph slider that _looked_ like a fastball. ;) D'oh! People who've never experienced it, don't appreciate it like you and I do. 'Roids or not, I marvel at what some of these hitters can do consistently, b/c I know I worked my butt off and there were times when it didn't matter what I did, I couldn't hit it consistently...enough.

[tliss]

All I have is one thing to say:

Screw baseball! Baseball has got to be the most boring-ass sport on the planet. It depresses me to call baseball America's sport. The only way I can watch it is if free beer and the company opens up the exec box behind home plate. And then I just screw around in the box, and don't really even watch the game. Can't really watch...there isn't enough action to keep the attention of my ADD ass!

Thank God football season is upon us!!:banana:

Disclaimer: This is Tom's opinion only and does not reflect the opinion of TALON. If you like baseball, then that is your prerogative. Tom just can't stand baseball and prefers a sport that is attention grabbing. A game where it really doesn't matter if you win or lose a game because you play 50,000 a season just does nothing for him. The NFL season is 16 games, baby, and they all count! There's some excitement for you.

Tom

[BC Lightning]

'Roids or not, I marvel at what some of these hitters can do consistently, b/c I know I worked my butt off and there were times when it didn't matter what I did, I couldn't hit it consistently...enough.

No matter what sport that is what it comes down too. Being able to go out and consistently do what you are good at. Anybody can luck into a good game or a good night, but the great baseball, football, basketball, boxers, golfers, NASCAR/Indy/NHRA, and all other type sports can go out there and win, juice or not.

I could through 88-90, but at the level I was at, 90 is average. Granted they did perdict where I could be at if I had been drafted, but my arm gave out and had to have surgery to fix it.

Another :ron:
My buddy Trevor (wrecked 99 L) had a million dollar arm, in H.S. he was throwing 90+ and went to JUCO for two years. Physically developed more, he was throwing 95-96 at the age of 20 (the only juice he has ever done is alcohol). Signed with the Yankees (as well as his left handed room mate) and played 3 years of proball. Well Sean Henn is an active pitcher for the Yankees (although moved to AAA because he was on the DL) and Trevor has had two surgeries. Thats why it is amazing for a guy like Nolan Ryan to do what he did. His first pro start was at 17 with the Mets :bows .

[StormShadow]

My question was purely hypothetical. I wanted to see where everyone stands on this issue. Here is my take, if I had the opportunity to sacrifice my own health in order to provide for my family for generations down the line I would have a hard time not going along with it. I understand that just because you use steroids that it is not a guarantee that you will make it big but for this hypothetical lets pretend that it does. So what would you do? Also, what kind of message does this send to the younger kids who look up to these athletes as heros? I think that if someone gets busted for roids they should get every stat that they ever put up erased from the book. Maybe create a cheaters record book and keep their stats there and ban them from their sport for life.

[StormShadow]

BTW I think that this thread has had the most thought out replies of any I've read in a while(the longest replies anyways).

[WA 2 FST]

My question was purely hypothetical. I wanted to see where everyone stands on this issue. Here is my take, if I had the opportunity to sacrifice my own health in order to provide for my family for generations down the line I would have a hard time not going along with it. I understand that just because you use steroids that it is not a guarantee that you will make it big but for this hypothetical lets pretend that it does. So what would you do? Also, what kind of message does this send to the younger kids who look up to these athletes as heros? I think that if someone gets busted for roids they should get every stat that they ever put up erased from the book. Maybe create a cheaters record book and keep their stats there and ban them from their sport for life.

Ok, well the way I'm taking your question is would you be willing to sacrifice yourself (a few good years, exactly how many we don't know) for the financial betterment of your family and decendents? On the surface, this could be considered very noble, and many of us would agree it would be good to do.

Then throw in the part about doing something illegal. I don't know... would my family rather have big $$, or have me around longer as someone who can be a grandfather who is respected (and not a hypocrite) and helps foster the values I hope my kids will instill in their kids?

To some this isn't even a question, I know. You'd say, "screw the grandpa, we want the loot." One problem is that a lot of the "loot" could be spent on the disabled individual who is fighting all kinds of physical problems in his old age before he dies (it may not be premature enough to keep the bank account huge, I don't know). Plus, the reputation is gone, and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Like it or not, that _will_ have some negative affect down the line.

Also, we could all ask ourselves this same theoretical question (on a smaller scale, of course) regarding our own spending habits (e.g.: that additional $1k in mods for our trucks). ;) I say this since we're talking financial responsibility and making sure the family coffers are stacked when we're gone. The answer to this question would be based upon more than just the obvious, but would go really deep into one's own value system regarding what is truly important to us, and the type of legacy we want to pass on.

The issue of doing something illegal... the reason I think your question can even be posed is b/c the punishment for taking illegal, performance-enhancing drugs does not fit the crime. The fact that you could do it, make millions upon millions, get caught and the only thing it might cost you is 5-10 years of your life (not to mention other physical ailments while you live, but that's beside the point) is unfortunate. The drug dealer selling crack on the street, goes to jail for awhile and the govt confiscates his belongings. Same with the crack junkie. The 'roids junkie just misses 10 games of his season, and costs him nickels on the dollar financially.

Again, this goes back to my other post referencing "white collar crime." In this case, breaking the rules/cheating/doing something illegal can and _does_ pay (financially speaking, of course) b/c the penalty doesn't carry any real weight. Since it doesn't, the wrong message gets sent to youngsters, who will pose the same question you raise. The biggest problem with deciding its worth it is that 99.5% of them will _not_ make it, but they have developed the mindset that it is ok to lie/cheat/steal/break the law... and we are left with punks who steal a car and run from police and into my mailbox. ;)

For me personally, my reputation is more important than the $$ I have in the bank. That can be taken away. Rafael Palmeiro once had a great reputation. He did/does a lot of good things for the community where he plays. But none of that matters now in my book. He lied to Congress, he's a cheater, and I don't care how many hits, HR's and RBI's he has, he will never get into the Hall of Fame. He will be wealthy, but people will always remember him as a fake.

And what about those same athletes who made millions and blew it all? Now their reputation is gone, the money pit dries up... they are left with nothing (friends would certainly be gone once the money is gone, family may be too), and now they have less time on Earth to make something _real_ of themselves. Let's don't assume that just b/c they made millions (helped by risky decisions regarding performance-enhancing drugs), they will be able to keep it.

[dboat]

After reading all the responses, here is my answer and a random opinion.

At the age in which one is presented with this alternative, juice or no juice, we are mere boys and feel that we are invincible, or nothing will happen to me. These decisions arent made when you are 48 yrs old and a bit wiser like me. I am not saying I am wise, just wiser than the age at when I would have been making this kind of decision. The "everyone does it" or "only a couple of guys get messed up physically, but look at all the guys that dont" type of comments are used to rationalize the bad decision.

So would I make the personal decision to juice? the answer would be NO today but if I truly felt that I would have a chance at the majors and make a couple of mill a year as a teenager? NO would probably be a hard decision to make.

I lost interest in baseball when they had their last big strike over salary. At the time the national economy was bad and the average BB player was earning over 1 mill a year.. I have always thought they had one of the best gigs for pro athletes. But I agree, with this latest info, the sport is killing itself.
Bring on Football... Heck I even like Arena Football...
Dana

[BC Lightning]

Then throw in the part about doing something illegal. I don't know... would my family rather have big $$, or have me around longer as someone who can be a grandfather who is respected (and not a hypocrite) and helps foster the values I hope my kids will instill in their kids?



The issue of doing something illegal... the reason I think your question can even be posed is b/c the punishment for taking illegal, performance-enhancing drugs does not fit the crime. The fact that you could do it, make millions upon millions, get caught and the only thing it might cost you is 5-10 years of your life (not to mention other physical ailments while you live, but that's beside the point) is unfortunate. The drug dealer selling crack on the street, goes to jail for awhile and the govt confiscates his belongings. Same with the crack junkie. The 'roids junkie just misses 10 games of his season, and costs him nickels on the dollar financially.



For me personally, my reputation is more important than the $$ I have in the bank. That can be taken away. Rafael Palmeiro once had a great reputation. He did/does a lot of good things for the community where he plays. But none of that matters now in my book. He lied to Congress, he's a cheater, and I don't care how many hits, HR's and RBI's he has, he will never get into the Hall of Fame. He will be wealthy, but people will always remember him as a fake.


My dad is an doctor and actually has roids at his clinic. As far as them being illegal, it is only the selling of steroids that is illegal, the actual use of them is not illegal, except in sports use. It is different than the usual street drugs to where it is illegal to sell and use. This is why congress steped in, as well as the fact they are looked up to by some many kids and people, what kind of message does it send.

Then there are the actual physical ailments you could/will have. Its like any other drug you can use there are side affects, it could happen on the first time, or after years of doing them. Depending on how toxic the type of roids are it could lead to baldness, dieabities, becoming sexually sterile, as well as others.

Minor league baseball is really cracking down on the use of steroids as they aren't protected by the Player's union like the big time players are. So hopefully they can get rid of it when they first come in the league and it will have an affect all the way to the top. But with the market for steroids so high, and the development of untraciable steroids, it might not ever happen.

As for players who wont be making the hall of fame because of their actions (i.e. roids, gambling, overall dicks) Pete Rose is a prime example of someone who should make it strickly on performance, but nobody wants someone like Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame. It is a shame that players who were looked up by millions of kids as well as adults wont have that honor for their performance, because they sacrificed it in some way shape or form.

[BC Lightning]

Don't get me wrong I love all other sports. I mean wht guy doesn't like football. All you do is hit people :beer:

I think that baseball is still the greatest sport because there are so many things that have to happen and so many adjustments that you have to make. From the time a pitcher releases the ball it takes less than a second to reach the catcher's mit. To actually hit it well with a wooden bat means that you have to rotate your hips, extend your arms, have good sight of the ball and have all that timed exactly right to make contatc with the ball.

But like Wes said most people won't get into baseball like we do.

Arena football is also a great one to watch. There is so much stuff going on around you that with my A.D.D. I dont actually watch the game.

[WA 2 FST]

My dad is an doctor and actually has roids at his clinic. As far as them being illegal, it is only the selling of steroids that is illegal, the actual use of them is not illegal, except in sports use. It is different than the usual street drugs to where it is illegal to sell and use. This is why congress steped in, as well as the fact they are looked up to by some many kids and people, what kind of message does it send.



Correct. My example was a bit of an exaggeration. I know people who've had doctor-ordered steriod injections. Heck, cortisone is a steriod. But even mild anabolic steriods when administered in proper doses over the proper time can be beneficial (and the chances of long-term harm are slim) in order to aid in injury recovery, etc.

But test, d-bol, etc... those are street 'roids and the way I look at it, there's no real difference than that and any other drug. Black market purchase/use of any drug/pharmacuetical is illegal.

Pete Rose is a criminal. Sure, one of the best all-around players to ever play (his desire to win is unmatched), but he disgraced the game. He should have thought about his "place" in the game before gambling on his own team. Then his outright denial of the whole thing. If the man had a contrite heart, that would be one thing. All he cares about is himself, not the game of baseball. He's proven that since his playing days were over.

[dboat]

I think that baseball is still the greatest sport because there are so many things that have to happen and so many adjustments that you have to make. From the time a pitcher releases the ball it takes less than a second to reach the catcher's mit. To actually hit it well with a wooden bat means that you have to rotate your hips, extend your arms, have good sight of the ball and have all that timed exactly right to make contatc with the ball.

I agree, hitting a baseball may be the hardest thing to do in sports, IMHO.

Arena football is also a great one to watch. There is so much stuff going on around you that with my A.D.D. I dont actually watch the game.

I just love to go to the games, not watch it on Tv... being there is where the fun is happening.. :tu:

[BC Lightning]

I just love to go to the games, not watch it on Tv... being there is where the fun is happening.. :tu:

I agree with you, it is way more fun to watch in person, besides the actual teams I follow or sports center, I usually don't watch baseball. I sometimes get depressed knowing I could have had a chance, but still fun to watch in person.

As far as Pete Rose I don't like the guy, just using him as an example of current players who have placed a red flag on themselves when it comes their time for the Hall of Fame. I still think that Barry Bonds is a great hitter, because they still have to hit the ball, but it makes you think of how many of those still would have gone out?

[BC Lightning]

Correct. My example was a bit of an exaggeration. I know people who've had doctor-ordered steriod injections. Heck, cortisone is a steriod. But even mild anabolic steriods when administered in proper doses over the proper time can be beneficial (and the chances of long-term harm are slim) in order to aid in injury recovery, etc.


My sister has to use a type of anabolic steroid because she has been diagonised (sp?) with Lupus (sp?) The steroids help her immune system fight off the infections and viruses that she might have if not on the medication. So yes roids used in the prescribed way are helpful.

Depending on the toxic level, amount used, and many other variables, you can live a healthy life using roids. Just like with creatine. when first on the market everybody thought it should be banned, however the amount of creatine that the body makes and the amount that gets absorbed into your system from taking the supplement does cause muscle growth without a very rigorus weight training program. I don't remeber the actual percentage, but the majority of it gets passed through your urine and never actually gets abrorbed. plus your body creates its own creatine at a very high level, and adding a high protein diet you can achieve the same results as taking the supplement.

Test is a very low toxic steroid so it is harder to pick up on a drug test. Usually it can be out of your system in a matter of weeks and at the latest 6 months. The affects are smaller, although it does have very noticable changes and cuts you up, and if taken in the right dosage without abusing it will have very little to no health harms. With something like D-Bol, it has one purpose, to put 35+ pounds of muscle, so it has a larger toxic level, causing the concern for more health defects. It also can stay in your system for over a year. So if you are off it, take a steroid test, it can still show up even if you haven't used it in a 6 month period. I use these as examples because of my own knowledge they are the most used steroids in baseball, as well as other sports.